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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Well, in Europe, we like track quality and therefore the CC diagrams are
not regarded very favourably those days, because the longest wheelbase
of the C truck is much more agressive for the track. Also a C truck cannot
be made symmetric like a B truck can be, and the dis-balance is also bad
for the track.

CC locos were a necessity in the past because of adherence problems. You
needed CC locos for their weight, and because they could outpout more
tractive effort at startup. Today, with electronic traction control systems,
a modern BB loco and its 80 tons can output more tractive effort than a
120 tons CC loco of the 70's. That's why all electric CCs in Europe will
disappear : French CC 6500 and German E 103 are already gone, swiss
Ae 6/6 too, I think, and belgian HLE 20 have less than 10 years ahead of
them. And the big swiss machines that you have seen before in this thread,
the RE 6/6, are BBB, not CC. Same for the locos of the channel tunnel.
Don't agree.

Traction effort was limited by chain and buffer coupler in Europe, Bo-Bo locos made by modern tech get the max strength of coupler, so Co-Co disappeared.
In China, a Co-Co loco can drag a 5000t freight train running at 120kph, in Europe, a Bo-Bo loco only drag a 1000t freight train at the same speed, just because of using of AAR coupler in China.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #42
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To me, THIS is still the most impressive giant.
No pic showing
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Old August 9th, 2009, 04:37 PM   #43
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Correct link:

http://3360x1050.com/images/3360x105...locomotive.jpg
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Old August 9th, 2009, 07:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
Don't agree.

Traction effort was limited by chain and buffer coupler in Europe, Bo-Bo locos made by modern tech get the max strength of coupler, so Co-Co disappeared.
In China, a Co-Co loco can drag a 5000t freight train running at 120kph, in Europe, a Bo-Bo loco only drag a 1000t freight train at the same speed, just because of using of AAR coupler in China.
Also here in North America. 13000t coal trains run through Appleton, WI (just a few blocks from where I live) 2-3 times every week to feed a power plant in Green Bay, WI. They are normally pulled by two 3.4MW 'Co-Co' diesel locomotives that are joined together into a single multiple-unit set.

Those style trains are standard operating procedure throughout North America, although more locomotives are used on them in the more mountainous regions.

Mike
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Old August 9th, 2009, 08:42 PM   #45
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Also here in North America. 13000t coal trains run through Appleton, WI (just a few blocks from where I live) 2-3 times every week to feed a power plant in Green Bay, WI. They are normally pulled by two 3.4MW 'Co-Co' diesel locomotives that are joined together into a single multiple-unit set.

Those style trains are standard operating procedure throughout North America, although more locomotives are used on them in the more mountainous regions.

Mike
Joke!

20,000t coal trains are runnging through Datong-Qinghuangdao every 15 minutes.

The railway transported 350,000,000t coal at the year of 2008!

American locomotives were considered as out of date in heavy duty rails 20 years ago in China.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #46
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One on left is world's fastest diesel train.

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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:13 PM   #47
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Yes they - the class 37 - are still in normal service.

Two companies use them. Direct Rail Services (DRS) has them hauling nuclear waste trains, while DB Schenker has a handful of them to haul some trains for Network Rail.
You never see them though...mayb like once in a life time
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Old August 10th, 2009, 01:59 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
Joke!

20,000t coal trains are runnging through Datong-Qinghuangdao every 15 minutes.

The railway transported 350,000,000t coal at the year of 2008!

American locomotives were considered as out of date in heavy duty rails 20 years ago in China.
To be fair

GE's HXN5/ES59ACi should be considered state of art even by China's standards.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 03:34 AM   #49
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Don't agree.

Traction effort was limited by chain and buffer coupler in Europe,

[…]
Half of Europe uses SA-3 couplers.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 06:10 AM   #50
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Half of Europe uses SA-3 couplers.
SA3 couplers are using in East Europe, axle load, max speed and axle power of locomotive are very difference from West Europe we have talked about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
To be fair

GE's HXN5/ES59ACi should be considered state of art even by China's standards.
American locos are pretty good diesel locos, but did you see "heavy duty" i have written? Diesel locos are inadaptable for huge freight transportation in populated area of China. They are too slow when drag heavy trains.

All of HXN5s were attached to Harbin section of Harbin bureau, a remote frontier.

Last edited by octopusop; August 10th, 2009 at 06:20 AM.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 07:15 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
American locos are pretty good diesel locos, but did you see "heavy duty" i have written? Diesel locos are inadaptable for huge freight transportation in populated area of China. They are too slow when drag heavy trains.

All of HXN5s were attached to Harbin section of Harbin bureau, a remote frontier.
Those 20000t coal trains in China use additional locomotives distributed throughout the train (middle and end), mainly to be able make the trains heavier without overloading the couplers. North American railroads also make use of 'distributed power' on many trains, but they try to avoid it if at all possible due to the cost and delays involved with switching the locomotives into and out of the trains.

The 13000t coal trains that pass through here (they serve ONE power plant that consumes 2-3 trainloads per week) have the locomotives at the front end of the trains ONLY. If those trains were any heavier they would also have to use distributed power.

(Remember that China and North America use identical coupling standards.)

Mike
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Old August 10th, 2009, 08:38 AM   #52
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Datong-Qinhuangdao is a coal special line, effective lengths of receiving-departure track are 3000m for 20000t trains. The trains are fixed without switching.

In normal lines of China, receiving-departure tracks are 1050m or 850m, so a freight train weights 6500t or 5000t. As i had posted #3 of this thread, dragging a same 5000t train, an American loco runs only 51kph at 4‰gradient lines, and an electric loco runs 102kph. So American locos are not allowed to run at main railway lines, there are too many 160kph passenger tains, freight trains and 200kph or 250kph CRHs, American locos in the main line will cause disasters.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #53
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I never understand why they used talgo cars with those locamotives...
Well, the Talgo cars provide a nice riding experience for the passengers (who don't normally care all that much about how the setup looks), and the locomotives had to be diesel. Plus, the less they cost the better. So that's what they ended up with. To be fair, the locomotive at the front, closest to the camera, isn't powered. The engine was removed, it's simply a control car.

Could've been worse. At least they put the wings on top, looks much better than it would've without them.



Try to imagine that without those top pieces.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 05:30 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
Those 20000t coal trains in China use additional locomotives distributed throughout the train (middle and end), mainly to be able make the trains heavier without overloading the couplers. North American railroads also make use of 'distributed power' on many trains, but they try to avoid it if at all possible due to the cost and delays involved with switching the locomotives into and out of the trains.

The 13000t coal trains that pass through here (they serve ONE power plant that consumes 2-3 trainloads per week) have the locomotives at the front end of the trains ONLY. If those trains were any heavier they would also have to use distributed power.

(Remember that China and North America use identical coupling standards.)

Mike
I think the point he's making is that even the most powerful US made diesels are not fast enough when compared to the rest of the world standards when it comes to freight.

Freights in the US and Canada usually have the benefit of ownership, where the Freight lines own much of the tracks that its trains operate on and thus, do not have to fight for priority rights against mail and passanger traffic that travels at twice and three times its speed.

In China, however, freights have lower priority than passenger and mail travel, and therefore must travel their set distance before the next set of high speed passenger train catches up. If the freight cannot cover its distance in the set time window, it’ll be thrown onto a by-pass track until the next window. Because China’s rail networks are at capacity, this wait could possibly last over 20 hours.

This is why on China’s lines, unless you’re looking at a special line such as the Datong-Qinghuangdao line where coal trains dominate the theme, you will see freights whizzing by at at least 80kph, if not faster. Dispite the fact that the North American style 160 carriage freight dragged by 5 diesels may be a more efficient way of freight travel, you won’t see no 40km/h clunkers on China's mainlines anytime soon.

What China does love its GEs for are as switcher engines. They ain’t fast, but they sure are powerful.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:02 AM   #55
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From which country/operator?
Lithuania

They weigh 136 tonnes, I'm not sure if they are only diesel but it looks like it from the pic.

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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:05 AM   #56
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Dispite the fact that the North American style 160 carriage freight dragged by 5 diesels may be a more efficient way of freight travel, you won’t see no 40km/h clunkers on China's mainlines anytime soon.

What China does love its GEs for are as switcher engines. They ain’t fast, but they sure are powerful.
North American freight trains can definitely travel way faster than 40 kph, even large, heavy freight trains, 5-10000 tons, can travel close to 100 kph with enough locomotive power, it's just not as common.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:11 PM   #57
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North American freight trains can definitely travel way faster than 40 kph, even large, heavy freight trains, 5-10000 tons, can travel close to 100 kph with enough locomotive power, it's just not as common.
It's not that it's not common; it's just that it simply doesn't happen. The number of ES44 type engines that a 5000 ton freight will need for it to run at 100kph and the amount of fuel that they’ll burn through makes it cost prohibitive.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:11 PM   #58
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It's not that it's not common; it's just that it simply doesn't happen. The number of ES44 type engines that a 5000 ton freight will need for it to run at 100kph and the amount of fuel that they’ll burn through makes it cost prohibitive.
Here's a Canadian Pacific train at about 80-90 kph, more than 5000 tons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1pTw...eature=related
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:19 PM   #59
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I don't think I'd want a giant freight train roaring through most parts of the country at high speeds. That would take the length of Iowa to stop.

Maybe if we ever get serious about grade separation...
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:40 PM   #60
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The German locomotives from the 232/234 series "Ludmilla" are also pretty big.

image hosted on flickr

by rienitz

Built by the October Revolution Locomotive Works in Woroschilowgrad, Sovjetunion (now Lokomotivfabrik Luhansk in Lugansk, Ukraine)

Same type in Bulgaria

image hosted on flickr

by TonyU020

In the Netherlands we had some bigger looking American locomotives, the 1200 series. Designed in America but manufactured in Holland in the early 1950s

image hosted on flickr

by cklx
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