daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2011, 08:59 PM   #141
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738


__________________
.
hee hee
.

sbsmunna liked this post
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 12th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #142
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738


__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2011, 02:10 AM   #143
hammersklavier
Feral
 
hammersklavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 597
Likes (Received): 423


Source: Wikipedia

The GG1s were beasts. The apex of PRR (and possibly American) rail engineering. And in Tuscan Red? Such beauts, too.


Source: Wikipedia

The Milwaukee Road hosted the best-engineered and to date only electrified American transcontinental railroad. And across the St. Paul Pass they used these beasts: the Little Joes. When MILW acquired them in the early '50s, they replaced another beast--the Bi-Polar:


Source: Wikipedia
hammersklavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2011, 07:45 PM   #144
XAN_
Registered User
 
XAN_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,034
Likes (Received): 760

BTW, is this line still electrified?
Is there any actual maps of USA, similar to this one? - http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...nce/france.gif
__________________
"I'm lost but still I know//There is another world"
-H. Kürsch, 1995
"Well, we all know there's no other side"
-H. Kürsch, 2002
XAN_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #145
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

No, the electrification of the (quote-unquote) Rocky-Mountains segment was dismantled upon the advent of sturdy diesel-electric traction. Another example of de-electrification of mountainous rail lines is the Tumbler-Ridge-BC one. Here's a list of electric traction around the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._rail_traction
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 05:43 AM   #146
hammersklavier
Feral
 
hammersklavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 597
Likes (Received): 423

Ah, the travesty of the Milwaukee Road.

The Mountain and Coast Divisions were de-electrified in the mid-1970s as the Milwaukee management constantly pruned every cost back to make itself attractive as a merger partner. Merger meat, you might say.

Get this: The Milwaukee de-electrified in spite of GE's offer to electrify the gap between the Mountain and Coast divisions as part of a new electric motors package it was selling them. And to make things more ironic: the price of copper crashed during de-electrification, erasing the short-term surplus the sale of the overhead's copper was supposed to provide.

During the first half of the 1970s, the MILW main was the busiest northern transcon, hauling more freight than either the Burlington Northern's (ex-GN) Marias or (ex-NP) Bozeman Pass routes*. Had MILW management capitalized on that fact, shed the railroad's unproductive granger lines, and concentrated on being a fast, efficient transcon route, the railroad would probably be a part of UP today. Instead, management tried to make itself attractive for a merger and as a consequence deferred maintenance along the line until it became untenable, and then abandoned it, which effectively erased the railroad's primary revenue stream, forcing it to declare bankruptcy the same year (1980).

At least parts of this route are now a rail-trail. So much for progress.

MILW had the chance to become the most profitable railroad in the U.S. in the 1970s, and they completely blew it.
___________
*And possibly both of them put together. I forget.

Last edited by hammersklavier; September 14th, 2011 at 05:50 AM.
hammersklavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2011, 03:33 AM   #147
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738


explosive climax! (2'30")
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2011, 03:34 AM   #148
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738


__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2011, 06:01 PM   #149
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
BTW, is this line still electrified?
The electrification was dropped in the early 1970s and that line (the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension) was outright abandoned in the early 1980s.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2011, 06:16 PM   #150
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Ah, the travesty of the Milwaukee Road.

The Mountain and Coast Divisions were de-electrified in the mid-1970s as the Milwaukee management constantly pruned every cost back to make itself attractive as a merger partner. Merger meat, you might say.

Get this: The Milwaukee de-electrified in spite of GE's offer to electrify the gap between the Mountain and Coast divisions as part of a new electric motors package it was selling them. And to make things more ironic: the price of copper crashed during de-electrification, erasing the short-term surplus the sale of the overhead's copper was supposed to provide.

During the first half of the 1970s, the MILW main was the busiest northern transcon, hauling more freight than either the Burlington Northern's (ex-GN) Marias or (ex-NP) Bozeman Pass routes*. Had MILW management capitalized on that fact, shed the railroad's unproductive granger lines, and concentrated on being a fast, efficient transcon route, the railroad would probably be a part of UP today. Instead, management tried to make itself attractive for a merger and as a consequence deferred maintenance along the line until it became untenable, and then abandoned it, which effectively erased the railroad's primary revenue stream, forcing it to declare bankruptcy the same year (1980).

At least parts of this route are now a rail-trail. So much for progress.

MILW had the chance to become the most profitable railroad in the U.S. in the 1970s, and they completely blew it.
___________
*And possibly both of them put together. I forget.
Very true. GE was willing to upgrade the Milwaukee's electrification to modern standards (from the old 3 Kv DC system to 25 Kv AC), close that gap and perhaps even extend the wire eastward as far as their major locomotive shop facility at Miles City, MT at their expense.

The truly sad thing here is that the old electrification was not operating at a loss. In fact, a 'post-mortem' examination of MILW's books showed that instead of a loss, that Pacific Extension was actually operating at a profit and with the looming Arab Oil Embargo of the early 1970s, doing that electrical upgrade work would could have had them being the most profitable and best-positioned railroad in the USA's west.

STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!



Yes, the story of the demise of the Milwaukee Road should be taught in every business management school.

Mike

Last edited by mgk920; September 21st, 2011 at 06:28 PM.
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2011, 05:48 PM   #151
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,069
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
with the looming Arab Oil Embargo of the early 1970s, doing that electrical upgrade work would could have had them being the most profitable and best-positioned railroad in the USA's west.
Are we sure of that ? Was the wire positioned high enough to allow the
circulation of double-stack container trains and tri-level auto racks ?

As a European, I'm definitely in favor of electrification schemes, but one
must remain realistic... No railway line in the USA today can have any
trans-continental ambition without fullfilling that requirement. Competition
would kill it almost instantly. Even in the East, where such a loading gauge
did not exist naturally, railroad companies spend tons of money to allow this
loading gauge on their lines now. It is really a must...
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2011, 10:52 PM   #152
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

In the scheme of railway history, double-stack container trains and tri-level auto racks are recent phenomena. Electrification of the Moscow-Vladivostock line took for ever, from 1929 to 2002, although I doubt raising the height of the MILW catenary'd have taken as long no matter how much shorter their own route; I bet the Russian's transcontinentals are double-tracked throughout too

What's the rationale behind launchers preventing their youtube videos from being watched here on SC?
__________________
.
hee hee
.

Last edited by trainrover; September 23rd, 2011 at 10:57 PM.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2011, 05:35 PM   #153
XAN_
Registered User
 
XAN_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,034
Likes (Received): 760

Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
In the scheme of railway history, double-stack container trains and tri-level auto racks are recent phenomena. Electrification of the Moscow-Vladivostock line took for ever, from 1929 to 2002, although I doubt raising the height of the MILW catenary'd have taken as long no matter how much shorter their own route; I bet the Russian's transcontinentals are double-tracked throughout too

Well, actually it isn't a 1929. Yes, technically first railway catenary* in the USSR was hanged between Moscow and Mitshi, which is part of transib, but it wasn't a start of electrification of the entire transib. That was only a small bits of catenary here and there around big cities (Moscow, Ekatirinburg, Novosibirsk), solely for suburban trains. Freight and long-haul passenger still operated with steam locos.

It wasn't until 1956, when a full-scale electrification of transib started and phasing out steam locos in favor of electrical traction for all kinds of trains.

Also Russia has actually 2 transcontinental railroads, but this is a bit tricky:
http://www.transsib.ru/Map/transsib-clock.gif
The red one is Transsiberian, it's fully doubletracked and electrified, Moscow-Vladivostok. Simple, yeah?
The dark orange is South-Ural mainline, it's fully doubletracked and electrified it meets Transsib in Omsk. Then, there is (somewhy unmarked on the map) doubletrack|electr. connection between Omsk and Taishet (a bunch of unnamed mainlines and sidings to the south of actual transsib).

Taishet is a kind of last frontier. Here runs both the Transsib itself and here starts the glorious BAM (green one on the map). BAM starts as shiny double-track/electr., but first it lost his second track at 720 km. At 1469 km catenary ends. BAM ends in Komsomolsk-on-Amur at 3819, giving numerous interconnections to the Transsib at 2348-3816 km.


*speaking of, the fist catenary above railway in USSR was actually a tramway catenery (and used half tramway/half railway rolling stock) - a Baku city authorities faced an urgent need for mass suburban transit back in 1926, so they used fare amount of tramway electrical equipment to create such an abomination. Still, it worked fine for decades, until replaced with "real" railway catenery and rolling stock.
__________________
"I'm lost but still I know//There is another world"
-H. Kürsch, 1995
"Well, we all know there's no other side"
-H. Kürsch, 2002

Last edited by XAN_; September 24th, 2011 at 05:44 PM.
XAN_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2011, 05:48 PM   #154
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Your map's the clearest I've seen. On the side, I'm merely hypothisizing about the rest of the transcontinentals. Upgrades/overhaul throughout wilderness upon wilderness does seem feasible, I'm hoping...
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #155
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Are we sure of that ? Was the wire positioned high enough to allow the
circulation of double-stack container trains and tri-level auto racks ?

As a European, I'm definitely in favor of electrification schemes, but one
must remain realistic... No railway line in the USA today can have any
trans-continental ambition without fullfilling that requirement. Competition
would kill it almost instantly. Even in the East, where such a loading gauge
did not exist naturally, railroad companies spend tons of money to allow this
loading gauge on their lines now. It is really a must...
The Milwaukee's 3KvDC electrification cleared auto racks and trailer-on-flatcar ('TOFC') intermodal. The concept of double-stacked containers did not exist in the early 1970s, so I am unsure of that. I do recall the USA's major railroads having to increase vertical clearances on some of their lines in the 1980s by undercutting track, lifting overpass bridges, cutting notches into tunnel linings and so forth in order to handle double-stacks, so I assume that had MILW's electrification survived, they would have had to make adjustments in that, too.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2011, 06:19 AM   #156
hammersklavier
Feral
 
hammersklavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 597
Likes (Received): 423

Still ongoing. CSX, for example, still does not have full double-stack clearance on their historic NY-DC main line, due in large part to tunnels in DC, Baltimore, and Philadelphia.

Especially interesting is the Virginia St. tunnel in DC: CSX wants to make it clear double-stacks (Plate H Clearance IIRC) while MARC wants to hang wire through it and down to Alexandria Union Station. The railroad infrastructural situation in both D.C. and Baltimore allow (unrealized) S-Bahn running, but the difficulty of interleaving freight and passenger hamper efforts somewhat.

Anyway, back on topic:
Baldwin Centipede, at 3,000 hp one of the most powerful of all first-generation diesels.

Would you look at all those axles!

Linky

Fairbanks-Morse Trainmaster, at 2,400 hp a very powerful, very strong, single-engine first-generation diesel.

It's one of my favorite locomotives ever, partly because of its freakin' awesome name!

Linky
hammersklavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #157
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Baldwin Centipede, at 3,000 hp one of the most powerful of all first-generation diesels.

Would you look at all those axles!
Fascinating ... hadn't known about this one
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #158
XAN_
Registered User
 
XAN_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,034
Likes (Received): 760



1.5 VL15 back in 2001

18 axles and 12600 kW of pure awesomeness.
__________________
"I'm lost but still I know//There is another world"
-H. Kürsch, 1995
"Well, we all know there's no other side"
-H. Kürsch, 2002

Last edited by XAN_; November 12th, 2011 at 09:31 AM.
XAN_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #159
Alseimik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 250
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Anyway, back on topic:
Baldwin Centipede, at 3,000 hp one of the most powerful of all first-generation diesels.

Would you look at all those axles!
I usually hate American locomotives, really, all but this design! It's great. And it has inspired the Danish Litra MY, my all time favourite! It's a ~2000hp beast (1,450 kW) from mid 1950's, top speed 133 km/h with a 16 cylinders 2stroke GM-EMD diesel engine. Here's some pics:



And the original colour is wonderful!

Alseimik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2011, 01:43 AM   #160
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738


__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium