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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserSoze View Post
Wow! Hard to pull that off on an ILS equipped runway. Can't wait to hear what the pilots & the black box say. Weird.

ILS was out of service on that runway.

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06/005 SFO NAVIGATION INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM RUNWAY 28L GLIDE PATH OUT OF SERVICE WITH EFFECT FROM OR EFFECTIVE FROM 1306011400-1308222359 FAA.GOV.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #582
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Morning from San Francisco! The latest on Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash (from Al-Jazeera): NTSB officials have started their investigation on the crash, with the two black boxes found near the accident site and are sent to Washington DC for analysis. Initial reports by the airline said that there were no mechanical or engine problems at the time of the incident, and the FBI has stressed from yesterday that there was no sign of terrorism being involved in the crash. More throughout the day.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The A340 also has a perfect safety record when it comes to fatalities, not just the newer types as the A380 and the 787.


But with just 2 crash landings and 2 fatalities (RIP) in 18 years of service with 1,113 delivered planes the 777 remains as safe as the A340 and the A380. As the 2 major accidents with the A330 show, these things we call airplanes are still metal objects that weight a couple of 100.000 kilograms that we somehow manage to make them fly. That there are no more accidents just shows how safe the airline industry is now. That people can actually survive an accident like that happened yesterday would have been unimaginable in early jet airplane age, just imagine this accident with a 707, a DC-8 or a De Havilland Comet.
A340 is really a variant of the A330. But yeah, that's also fatality free and looks set to remain that way.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #584
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Asiana Airlines Flight 214 update: latest injury report from San Francisco General Hospital indicates that it has received 53 patients, the largest set among all the hospitals being sent from the accident. Of the 53, 19 have been admitted and 34 have been released. Of the 19 admitted, 6 of them are in critical condition, with 5 adults and 1 child, while the remainder have medical conditions ranging from moderate to good. The age range of the patients are between 20 and 76 years old. Multiple types of injuries are being observed, including injuries to the spine, head, legs, and skin (incl. trauma, fractures, and paralysis). Three trauma centers have been established to address the needs of patients, and blood supplies are good for distribution to patients.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 12:56 AM   #585
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I just saw a video on CNN.com that showed the impact of the plane.

My personal hunch was correct--the flight crew may have attempted a full manual landing, and possibly let the plane fly too slow just before reaching the runway threshold. As such, the plane dropped more than normal during its final descent, and flight crew realized what was happening and applied full engine power to do a go-around, the plane pitched up to a higher-than-normal angle of attack (AOA) and that's why on the initial impact the tail was ripped off.

Note that in the video from CNN.com the plane bounced up after initial impact then came back down right side up; they were VERY lucky the plane didn't bounce up like what happened with FedEx Flight 80 in March 2009, when the hard landing of the MD-11 freighter at Narita International Airport caused the entire plane to flip over and break up before coming to a rest. If the Asiana Flight 214 had impacted like FedEx Flight 80, the casualty toll would have been horrendous, to say the least.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 01:44 AM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
I just saw a video on CNN.com that showed the impact of the plane.

My personal hunch was correct--the flight crew may have attempted a full manual landing, and possibly let the plane fly too slow just before reaching the runway threshold. As such, the plane dropped more than normal during its final descent, and flight crew realized what was happening and applied full engine power to do a go-around, the plane pitched up to a higher-than-normal angle of attack (AOA) and that's why on the initial impact the tail was ripped off.

Note that in the video from CNN.com the plane bounced up after initial impact then came back down right side up; they were VERY lucky the plane didn't bounce up like what happened with FedEx Flight 80 in March 2009, when the hard landing of the MD-11 freighter at Narita International Airport caused the entire plane to flip over and break up before coming to a rest. If the Asiana Flight 214 had impacted like FedEx Flight 80, the casualty toll would have been horrendous, to say the least.
saw that video too, I thought the same, and seems that it "sunk", it almost flipped and is it just me or did the tail hit water before the seawall?
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Old July 8th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maadeuurija View Post
saw that video too, I thought the same, and seems that it "sunk", it almost flipped and is it just me or did the tail hit water before the seawall?
Yeah, I reckon the tail hit the water first since there seemed to be spray/smoke for a couple of seconds (with the tail still attached) before a strike (losing the tail) and then horizontal rotation (the nose almost trailing) before the plane rotated back again. The strength of the fuselage is excellent and has helped save many, many lives in this tragedy. Also lucky it didn't flip over.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 03:28 AM   #588
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I hope this crash doesn't come down to tired pilots because of poor crew resource management.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 04:52 AM   #589
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Asiana Airlines Flight 214 update: Runway 28R/10L open for flight movements since nearly 6 hours ago. NTSB makes initial observation that there were no mechanical or weather problems during the accident, but, the flight was landing "too low" of a speed that there was an attempt for an aborted landing to allow a second go around... But it happened seconds too late (at around 1.5 seconds to landing).
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Old July 8th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wezza View Post
I hope this crash doesn't come down to tired pilots because of poor crew resource management.
i have a feeling that played a role here...

anyway more details emerging and looks like the captain only has about 43 hours on this type although he has over 9000 total hours and has landed in SFO many times before in 747... the safety pilot is obviously more experienced with the 772 (3000+ hrs in this type)... not sure who is PF during the landing but the landing is really bizarre..
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Old July 8th, 2013, 05:56 AM   #591
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Additional info: the pilot who landed the aircraft was in training during the time of the accident, which I find really strange, especially for a crowded airport like SFO.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
Additional info: the pilot who landed the aircraft was in training during the time of the accident, which I find really strange, especially for a crowded airport like SFO.
it's really not that strange though... it's not like the pilot hasn't flown to SFO before... and besides, it was a clear day--a good chance to practice landings with a "new" plane..

as Wezza said, CRM could be a factor here... both pilots are equally highly experienced, maybe the captain opted to fly the landing and the safety pilot just couldn't say no?? or maybe the safety pilot just felt the captain was ready for the landing, what could go wrong on a perfect day like that, right??

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Old July 8th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pi_malejana View Post
it's really not that strange though... it's not like the pilot hasn't flown to SFO before... and besides, it was a clear day--a good chance to practice landings with a "new" plane..

as Wezza said, CRM could be a factor here... both pilots are equally highly experienced, maybe the captain opted to fly the landing and the safety pilot just couldn't say no?? or maybe the safety pilot just felt the captain was ready for the landing, what could go wrong on a perfect day like that, right??

Absolutely, but we'll not jump into immediate conclusions at the moment. The NTSB is out at SFO Airport right now, checking the wreckage, and Rwy 28R/10L is open again for aircraft movements, easing the burden for wide bodies.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #594
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I think what is going to be of interest to Boeing is did the pilot follow proper procedures for a full-manual approach and quick transition to go-around during the approach to Runway 28L. This is very important since the cockpit configuration of a 777 is quite different than the 737 the pilot was used to, and unfamiliarity of the cockpit controls may be a factor in this accident.

Indeed, this is where the cockpit design of Airbus planes since the 1980's may become an advantage. This is because the most common controls on Airbus plane share a singular design, so pilots trained to fly the A320 could transition to fly the A330/A340 or even the A350XWB or A380 with relatively few hours of retraining.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 12:29 AM   #595
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I thought the PIC was transitioning from a 747, not 737. And I doubt it had anything to do with it, there is another pilot in the cockpit who is supposed to be cross checking everything. Why didn't he notice the slow speed? This is why I'm leaning towards fatigue. We'll see anyway.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #596
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Quote:
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I hope this crash doesn't come down to tired pilots because of poor crew resource management.
I've come to appreciate the sentiment that whenever a plane crashes, it's never one reason/cause, but a series of failures. I'm sure that will be the case in this accident investigation.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #597
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Asiana 214 approach reconstruction



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Old July 13th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #598
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Old July 13th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #599
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We take ILS for granted, but boy, can they save lives.
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Old July 20th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #600
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Reactions to the below story: as much as I applaud the efforts of emergency responders for their efforts and that I understand a crash like this is incredibly chaotic, this is without a doubt a preventable incident and shows the weaknesses that lie within emergency response protocols at SFO. There definitely needs to be lessons learned, and other airport operations must take note to prevent similar incidents from ever occurring again.

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Teen survived Asiana crash, but died after being struck by vehicle: coroner
CTV News Channel: Teen killed by emergency vehicle


Officials in San Francisco say Ye Meng Yuan was alive but not standing up when she was struck by a vehicle on its way to the crash.

Terry Collins, The Associated Press
Published Friday, July 19, 2013 1:27PM EDT
Last Updated Friday, July 19, 2013 6:00PM EDT

SAN MATEO, Calif. -- As the wreckage of Asiana Flight 214 burned, Ye Meng Yuan was lying on the ground just 30 feet (9 metres) away, buried by the firefighting foam rescue workers were spraying to douse the flames.

No one knows exactly how the 16-year-old Chinese student got to that spot, but officials say one thing is clear now: She somehow survived the crash.

And in the chaotic moments that followed -- flames devouring the fuselage, those aboard escaping by emergency slides, flight attendants frantically cutting away seat belts to free passengers -- a fire truck ran over Yuan, killing her.

Asiana Airlines plane crash San Francisco
An unidentified family member of one of two Chinese students killed in an Asiana Airlines plane crash on Saturday, is escorted by airport security officers at the Pudong International Airport in Shanghai, China, Monday, July 8, 2013. (AP / Eugene Hoshiko)

The new details -- released Friday by the coroner's office -- compounded the tragedy for her family and confirmed the growing suspicions that emergency workers have had since soon after the July 6 crash: One of the three who died did so by rescuers' actions.

"There's not a lot of words to describe how badly we feel, how sorry we feel," said San Francisco Fire Chief Joanne Hayes-White.

Yuan's family was upset after learning the details of their daughter's death and wants her body returned to China, County Coroner Robert Foucrault said.

"It was a difficult conversation," he said.

Hayes-White said she was trying to arrange a meeting with them and that the "tragic accident" would prompt a review of how the fire department uses the foam and responds to emergencies at the airport.

"There's always room for us to evaluate and improve our response," she said. "(There's) very unfortunate news today. However, many, many lives were saved and we made a valiant effort to do so on July 6."

In a statement, the Chinese Consulate called on authorities to determine responsibility for Yuan's death. Hayes-White said she did not immediately foresee any disciplinary action. San Francisco police and the National Transportation Safety Board are investigating the incident.

In all, 304 of the 307 people aboard the Boeing 777 survived the crash at San Francisco International Airport.

Yuan and her close friend, 16-year-old Wang Linjia, who also died, were students at Jiangshan Middle School in Zhejiang, an affluent coastal province in eastern China, Chinese state media has reported.

They were part of a group of students and teachers from the school who were heading to summer camp in Southern California.

Yuan and Linjia were seated at the back of the plane. Authorities say the jetliner came in too low and too slow, clipping its landing gear and then its tail on a rocky seawall just short of the runway.

Linjia's body was found near the seawall at the edge of the runway.
It was unclear how Yuan got from the airplane to the spot where she died. Investigators believe she was down on the ground and not standing up during the "volatile" and "dangerous" aftermath of the plane crash, the fire chief said.

Foucrault declined to go into detail on how he determined the teenager was alive before she was struck, but said there was internal hemorrhaging that indicated her heart was still beating at the time.

Authorities confirmed last week that Yuan was hit by a vehicle racing to extinguish the flames in the plane. Police said she was on the ground and covered in the foam that rescuers had sprayed on the wreckage.

The other victim, 15-year-old Liu Yipeng, died at a hospital on July 12.
Associated Press writer Mihir Zaveri in San Francisco contributed to this report.
Via CTV
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