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Old November 3rd, 2013, 06:31 PM   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Since you "all understood", explain please, do you mean a gaping hole in the fuselage during flight is normal? And the risk of the panel getting sucked into an engine is also business as usual?
The panel that fell off covered an compartment with A/C equipment, there was no hole in the cargo compartment. The panel was also located behind the engines, there was no risk that could have been sucked into one of the engines.

There was no risk of decompression since the compartment that was exposed was actually outside of the actual fuselage. It only had an effect on the streamline of the plane. But since it happened at a slow speed during the final decent this didn't really matter anymore.

Of course it's a safety issue, this should not have happened but on this occasion it didn't result in an immediate emergency.

The fact that it was a 787 had absolutely no influence on this incident. The Air India mechanic who was responsible, the panel wasn't fastened correctly after regular maintenance was reprimanded.

And it does happen regularly with all types of aircraft, but most of the time it's not newsworthy. But since this was a 787....
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Old November 4th, 2013, 07:15 AM   #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The panel that fell off covered an compartment with A/C equipment, there was no hole in the cargo compartment. The panel was also located behind the engines, there was no risk that could have been sucked into one of the engines.

There was no risk of decompression since the compartment that was exposed was actually outside of the actual fuselage. It only had an effect on the streamline of the plane. But since it happened at a slow speed during the final decent this didn't really matter anymore.

Of course it's a safety issue, this should not have happened but on this occasion it didn't result in an immediate emergency.

The fact that it was a 787 had absolutely no influence on this incident. The Air India mechanic who was responsible, the panel wasn't fastened correctly after regular maintenance was reprimanded.

And it does happen regularly with all types of aircraft, but most of the time it's not newsworthy. But since this was a 787....
Momo, please, don't make a fool of yourself. you mean a 32-square-foot hole in the fuselage is not a serious issue? Of course "it didn't result in an immediate emergency". They discovered only after landing. That "this happened at low speed during the final descent" is your own concoction. Actually no one knows, since the panel has not been found and the crew did not receive any alert (which is also scary). Had they found out, such a problem would have triggered IMMEDIATE action, such as slowing down the plane and calling an emergency landing, going by the guidelines of just about any aviation agency in the world. And no, it does NOT "happen regularly with all types of aircraft", just as not every casual accident brings about an inquiry by the national civil aviation authority http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle5236939.ece
fanboyism is always silly, but, being that we are not dealing with a smartphone, it can get downright dangerous.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 09:00 PM   #663
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The 1st reports said that the panel wasn't found, but later on it was reported that it was found in the proximity of the airport. Some reports even say right next to the runway, either way it only happened during the final decent. Which is logical since the airflow around the fuselage at full speed would have kept the panel in it's place. And it would also be the reason why the pilots didn't notice anything since it happened when the landing gear was down.

As I said, it was a safety issue but on this occasion the chance that it would have caused the plane to crash was very small. The biggest danger was that the panel would have hit someone on the ground. The standard inquiry will only result in a standard recommendation to the airlines operating the 787 "make sure the panel is correctly fastened after maintenance". There will be no further recommendations about the safety of the 787, simply because it was not an issue that was specific for the 787 and it also was not caused by a faulty design. Just like the incorrectly fastened engines cowls that resulted in the cowls falling of 2 A320s earlier this year.


btw, this is how the professionals are talking about falling aircraft pieces on the internet.
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...falls-sky.html
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Old November 5th, 2013, 11:05 AM   #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The 1st reports said that the panel wasn't found, but later on it was reported that it was found in the proximity of the airport. Some reports even say right next to the runway, either way it only happened during the final decent.
Would you please point to a source for this?
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Which is logical since the airflow around the fuselage at full speed would have kept the panel in it's place.
I see you're versed in aerodynamics...
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
And it would also be the reason why the pilots didn't notice anything since it happened when the landing gear was down.
So the landing gear made it harder for the pilots to find out. Interesting
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
As I said, it was a safety issue but on this occasion the chance that it would have caused the plane to crash was very small. The biggest danger was that the panel blah blah.
Well I guess there's no point arguing with the fanbois.
Here's the latest "dreamliner" malfunction, from some 20 hours ago:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/25224188.cms
...of course "there was no threat to the 100 people on board" and even if it had been smashed through nothing would have happened, because every 787 comes with metal-plated pilots.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #665
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I hate fanboysm, especially in aviation. I also see no fanboysm here, on Momo's part. It's clear to me he's better informed, treats this more seriously and is more rational than you are on this topic.

However, I do see bashing from you directed at the 787 and Momo and judging by the articles you post, I'm sorry to say, but you seem to be the exact target of those attention-seeking, paranoid, exaggerated reports we often see in the media.

Usually when the press in Romania deals with some sort of aviation incident they do a poor job from start to finish, but I'll be damned, the article you just posted and the video in it takes it to a whole new level.

This being said, a cracked windshield IS a serious matter, potentially more so than a panel falling off, but it's important to remain level-headed and find out the cause instead of engaging in bashing (of the aircraft OR airline). Perhaps forums such as PPRuNe and Airliners.net, where professionals and enthusiasts congregate will give you a better perspective on these incidents, but given your activity here, I kind of doubt you're actually interested in the topic, beyond the usual shenanigans I see.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 01:09 PM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Would you please point to a source for this?
Just google some articles on the incident
dated after 16 October.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
So the landing gear made it harder for the pilots to find out. Interesting Well I guess there's no point arguing with the fanbois.
You do know what happens when the landing gear is deployed? Several doors open to make the gears come out of the compartments in the fuselage. This comes with a little shock, which is partly caused by the mechanism but also by the aerodynamic shock that is created because the opened doors create a hole in the fusulage. A hole which is very similar to the hole that opened when the panel fell off. It's very possible that the shock of the landing gear doors that opened triggered the panel to come loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Here's the latest "dreamliner" malfunction, from some 20 hours ago:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/25224188.cms
...of course "there was no threat to the 100 people on board" and even if it had been smashed through nothing would have happened, because every 787 comes with metal-plated pilots.
The panel incident had nothing to do specifically with the 787, other 787 incidents are therefor completely irrelevant for this particular case.

The windshields are designed not to break completely when they crack, not just on the 787 but all commercial planes. They are also pretty common (maybe somewhat more common on a 787), usually they happen because of a birdstrike. The design of the windshield prevented this to turn into a serious incident. Now it's just costly since a new windshield is quite expensive.


And yes, the 787 has too many incidents, and yes some of them where potentially life threatening. But that's no reason to turn every incident into something bigger then it really is.

The fallen panel might say more about the safety situation at Air India, except for the fact that this kind of incidents caused by maintenance errors happen at all major airlines.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 01:14 PM   #667
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Dreamliner's priority landing in Delhi after warning lights in cockpit

Quote:
New Delhi: An Air India Dreamliner from London made a priority landing in Delhi early this morning after warning lights in the cockpit indicated problems with the braking system.

The plane had nearly 170 passengers and 10 crew members and made a safe landing. Air India officials describe the incident as a "false alarm" but the incident raises new concerns about the high-tech jet that has suffered a string of mishaps since its introduction two years ago.

Just yesterday, the windshield of another Dreamliner in Air India's fleet cracked while landing
at the Melbourne airport.

The 787 Dreamliner has suffered a series of glitches since it was introduced, the worst being incidents involving overheating batteries that prompted regulators to ground the entire fleet in January. Flights resumed in April.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #668
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This kind of incidents don't belong in this thread. Just keep it with real accidents and serious incidents with for example actual damage.


And the "raises new concerns" phrase in the article is also nonsense. It's not a new concern, it's actually something that Boeing has already publically adressed on several occasions. 30% of all the issues with the 787 are caused by these kind of false indications, they are working on the computer systems of the 787 to fix this.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #669
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ok. I thought it was about any aviation related incident. plus this was made to look like a big incident so I posted it here.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 09:36 PM   #670
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It's sensationalized because it's a 787, but Air India says in the article that it was a false alarm. So that should have said enough.


And if all these kinds of incidents were posted this post would have a new page every single week. Here are 2 similar incidents from the last couple of weeks that did not make the headlines in the general press.

Incident: Emirates A332 near Colombo on Nov 2nd 2013, cargo fire indication
http://avherald.com/h?article=46aec2a9&opt=2048

"Attending emergency services found no trace of fire, heat or smoke."


Incident: Air Canada A333 at Munich on Oct 28th 2013, unsafe cabin door

http://avherald.com/h?article=46afac34&opt=2048
"The Canadian TSB reported received an unsafe forward cabin door ECAM caution. Maintenance checked the right hand forward cabin door proximity sensor, cleaned the connector and tested the sensor with no further anomalies."

If you add all the engine shutdowns, flap problems, hydraulic failures, odor in cabin problems it would bury real incidents.

Like this one yesterday in Montreal, Canada.


Accident: Royal Air Maroc B763 at Montreal on Nov 4th 2013, cargo belt loader caught fire
http://avherald.com/h?article=46afe309&opt=2048


"A Royal Air Maroc Boeing 767-300, registration CN-RNT performing flight AT-206 from Casablanca (Marocco) to Montreal,QC (Canada), had completed an uneventful flight, the aircraft reached the parking position, engines were shut down and passengers began to disembark. A cargo belt loader was used to unload luggage from the left aft cargo door but caught fire emitting a large plume of smoke and prompting the crew to initiate an emergency evacuation via slides. About 250 passengers evacuated the aircraft. 7 passengers received injuries, 5 of them were taken to hospital, the injuries partly to lower limbs as result of the evacuation and partly due to smoke inhalation."


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Old November 6th, 2013, 06:21 AM   #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Just google some articles on the incident
dated after 16 October.
Nothing of that kind on the internet. So again, if you have found an article saying it happened during landing, please take the time to post the source. This should be no big deal for you, since you seem to be spending your whole day defending the "dreamliner" anyway.
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This kind of incidents don't belong in this thread. Just keep it with real accidents and serious incidents with for example actual damage.
This thread is named "Aviation INCIDENTS and emergencies discussion" so it all does belong in here.
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Old November 6th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #672
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Then you have to look harder, it's out there you just have too look past page 1 on Google.


And this thread has evolved over the last couple of years to become a thread where not all minor incidents are posted. A couple of times people have started to post these kind of minor issues as well that has always resulted in criticism from other users. There's also no need to suddenly change this thread into a "The Aviation Herald", if you want to read about every incident just go there.
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Old November 6th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Nothing of that kind on the internet.
I remember reading on... Airliners.net, I think, and some of the initial reports there and in the media said "before landing" or "during landing". Others, of course, just said "in flight" or "over India". I didn't care due to the nature of the incident and because I tend not to take my aviation info from the media, except for a few major news outlets who are usually pretty factual, but the local news organizations are pretty much full of exaggerations and misinformation.

When a TAROM flight returns to the airport due to engine problems, for example, some news channels here cue the dramatic music and do a 3-5 minute segment on the whole thing. From what I've seen recently, it's significantly worse in India.

Anyway, going back to the 787, here's one of the articles you're looking for, indeed from the 1st page of Google.

http://o.canada.com/travel/air-india...efore-landing/
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This thread is named "Aviation INCIDENTS and emergencies discussion" so it all does belong in here.
Strictly from a theoretical standpoint, yes, it all does belong here. However, multiple incidents happen on a daily basis, so if we were to be thorough and post about all of them, this thread would get very busy, which will surely turn away most people, probably including the aviation nuts 'round here, who can always go to The Aviation Herald anyway for that, not to mention A.net or PPRuNe.

Can we move past that now?

Btw, I see you tend to apply stupid labels to people and accuse them of fanboysm because they don't bash the 787 like you'd want them to do. I like planes (and aviation in general) and I like both the 787 and the A350, though I like the A350 slightly more, purely for subjective design reasons and because I have a slight preference for Airbus cockpit and systems design philosophy, but overall I find that both companies make outstanding products. Shame that the 787 has these kinks to sort out, which mainly stem from decisions taken by departments more focused on finances and marketing than engineering, but like other aircraft before it, I'm sure they'll overcome them and the product will be successful (remains to be seen HOW successful though). What I've said is a no brainer, but for you it seems clarifications are in order.

Last edited by Cosmin; November 6th, 2013 at 12:41 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 11:18 AM   #674
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Quote:
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Then you have to look harder, it's out there you just have too look past page 1 on Google.
Sorry, I cannot find it. Come on, it's not that hard, post your source, please. Or admit there is none.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #675
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Quote:
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It's sensationalized because it's a 787, but Air India says in the article that it was a false alarm. So that should have said enough.
and I get it. am not opposing whatever you said. I just told you my reason to post it here.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #676
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Quote:
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Sorry, I cannot find it. Come on, it's not that hard, post your source, please. Or admit there is none.
Oh for god sake, is it really that hard to use Google? And even if you can't there's still Cosmin's last post, it's freaking mentioned in the article he posted...


And if you want more, here's an article that was specifically written about finding the panel.

http://www.punemirror.in/article/2/2...Bangalore.html

"The missing panel from an Air India Dreamliner, which fell away during a Delhi-Bangalore flight on October 12, was finally found on Friday - within the boundary of Bangalore airport."

Happy now?
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Old November 8th, 2013, 07:00 AM   #677
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Quote:
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Happy now?
Ohhh! Finally, you posted a source (really, you ALMOST made it, the link did not work, I had to amend it to make it work). And did you know, etiquette says, you make a claim, you post the source, it's not up to other forumers to look for it.
The source posted by Cosmin, instead, is a funny one - it refers to an article on the India Times, but nowhere is said in this article that the panel was found near Bangalore.
So I quote the Pune Mirror in the article you posted: “The special locking mechanism of the panel failed to work, leading to the incident. We are examining the possibility of a design flaw,” said a DGCA official.
...Thus it is not true that an Air India mechanic was at fault, as you claimed. Very likely there is a defect in the panel, possibly not only in THAT panel.
In any case, Corporate Damage Control can be smelt from 1000 miles away in this case and the recent analogous ones. If one's not part of the op, of course.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 09:00 AM   #678
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You have to understand India, the DGCA still blamed Boeing after Air India suspended the mechanic.

The fact is that it was only attached with "5 screws instead of the usual 17". It's a panel that covers a bay with A/C equipment, it's opened during regular maintenance. It was opened and closed by Air India Maintenance after delivery and before the incident happened. They didn't hesitate 1 second to fly in a replacement panel to have the plane in commercial service again on the same day. The incident didn't result in any further damage to the plane, especially to the points where the panel is attached. They could just screwed on a new one and the plane was fixed.

There was no worldwide safety directive, no other airline reported any issues. The Japanese carriers would preventively turn around flights and be 100% open about it if there a safety issue in the design of the panel, they didn't.

The 787 has 99 problems, but this one might not be not be one of them. And if you really look at this without any bias you would have concluded the same But as much as you say you hate fanboys your reasoning clearly proofs that you are a hateboy, you really want Boeing and the 787 to be at fault here.

If you really want to prove a point go to the 787 thread and start to complain about the real problems, based on real facts and professional opinions. The way you look at it only make you look like a fool and consequently make the real 787 problems look less serious then they actually are.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
If you really want to prove a point go to the 787 thread and start to complain about the real problems, based on real facts and professional opinions. The way you look at it only make you look like a fool and consequently make the real 787 problems look less serious then they actually are.
I tell FACTS. This was an emergency in anyone's book and, BY FAA GUIDELINES, would have led to an EMERGENCY LANDING had it been discovered in flight. Also no one, except you and the other fondamentalist fanboi, are disputing the fact that this aircraft is problematic, to say the least. I'm not interested in any brand vs. brand argument, looks like you are though. So I have news for you, you have it overdone so much so that even people at Boeing wouldn't suscribe your round-the-clock rants. Because, ehm, you look like a fool. Really.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 10:35 AM   #680
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you and the other fondamentalist fanboi
And who's this other "fondamentalist fanboi"?
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