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Old March 17th, 2014, 04:50 AM   #941
Hed_Kandi
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Why would Boeing make a plane where the critical communication systems could be shut off at whim? While they're at it the may as well have an off switch for the black box as well.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 04:50 AM   #942
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The airplane is in the jungle

"El avión perdido se encuentra al sur de malasia en una selva. El avión perdió contacto con torre de control y perdió sus coordenadas. Había mucha nubosidad. Voló durante 6 horas y aterrizó forzosamente en la selva. Hubo menos de 100 muertos y demás pasajeros se hallan en malas condiciones y si no rescatan pronto pueden morir. deben comunicar esto a los organismos internacionales de RESCATE."

That was the information in spanish...
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Old March 17th, 2014, 05:33 AM   #943
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And I guess this is the source

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Old March 17th, 2014, 05:45 AM   #944
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Originally Posted by Lindemann View Post
And I guess this is the source

If in 10 o 20 years someone find the airplane in the jungle you can´t said that you didnot read about that.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 06:32 AM   #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joangar View Post

If in 10 o 20 years someone find the airplane in the jungle you can´t said that you didnot read about that.
If he is able to write this news, means he already have some evidence and he can go to any police station and report what he found. But he did not do so..... Most likely this is a fake news.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 06:58 AM   #946
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Si los equipos de comunicación fueron apagados en su momento ¿Para qué enviaron patrullajes por agua, si sabían que el avión emitió señales por otro lado? Acá hay algo raro.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 07:13 AM   #947
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Searchers relying on satellite data to find plane

Investigators hone in on satellite data in a way never tried before as they try to locate missing

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Finding a missing Malaysia Airlines plane may hinge on whether searchers can narrow down where they need to look using satellite data that is inexact and has never been used for that purpose before, search and rescue experts say.

Authorities now believe someone on board the Boeing 777 shut down part of the aircraft's messaging system about the same time the plane with 239 people on board disappeared from civilian radar. But an Inmarsat satellite was able to automatically connect with a portion of the messaging system that remained in operation, similar to a phone call that just rings because no one is on the other end to pick it up and provide information. No location information was exchanged, but the satellite continued to identify the plane once an hour for four to five hours after it disappeared from radar screens.

Based on the hourly connections with the plane, described by a U.S. official as a "handshake," the satellite knows at what angle to tilt its antenna to be ready to receive a message from the plane should one be sent. Using that antenna angle, along with radar data, investigators have been able to draw two vast arcs, or "corridors" — a northern one from northern Thailand through to the border of the Central Asian countries Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, and a southern one from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean. The plane is believed to be somewhere along those arcs.

Air crash investigators have never used this kind of satellite data before to try to find a missing plane, but after pursing other leads it's the best clue left.

"The people that are doing this are thinking outside the box. They're using something that wasn't designed to be used this way, and it seems to be working," said William Waldock, who teaches accident investigation at the Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Arizona. "In terms of search and rescue, they're probably going to have rewrite the book after this."

Authorities generally believe the plane crashed into the ocean, although they can't rule out the possibility that it may be on land somewhere. Twenty-five countries are involved in the search for the plane, using at least 43 ships and 58 aircraft.

"If it really is out there in the Indian Ocean, they're going to need a lot more than that," Waldock said. "It's immense. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of people, a lot of ships and airplanes."

In order to narrow down the location, low-flying planes are searching broad swaths of water for any sign of debris. The search is complicated by the vast amount of trash floating in the world's oceans.

If the airliner did crash into the ocean, some lighter-weight items such as insulation, seat cushions, and life jackets, as well as bodies not strapped to seats, are likely to be floating on the surface, Waldock said. The heavier parts of the plane would sink, with depths in some parts of the Indian Ocean at over 15,000 feet, he said.

When suspected debris of a plane is found, the nearest ship — whether it's a search ship or a commercial vessel that happens to be in the area — is sent to the site. A small boat or life raft usually has to be lowered into the water for a closer look at the debris to judge whether it might have come from the missing plane.

If searchers find airplane debris, ocean currents will have already moved away from where the plane went into the water. Searchers will then have to use their knowledge of currents in the region to estimate how far and from what direction the debris came, and work backward to that location.

The airliner is equipped with two "black boxes" — a flight data recorder that contains hundreds of types of information on how the plane was functioning, and a cockpit voice recorder that contains pilots' conversations and noise in the cockpit. Both are equipped with underwater locator beacons, sometimes called "pingers," that emit a sonic signal that can only be heard underwater. Sonar on ships can sometimes pick up the pings, but they are best heard using a special pinger locator device that is lowered into the water.

The U.S. Navy in the Indian Ocean region has a pinger locator. "It's boxed up, it's ready to be sent somewhere," said a U.S. official. "Right now, there just isn't enough evidence to tell us where to send it."

The official agreed to speak only on condition anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak publicly.
http://t.co/tansbaHWZt
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Old March 17th, 2014, 07:16 AM   #948
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MH370 flew as low as 1,500m to avoid detection, says paper

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As the search for the missing flight MH370 enters its 10th day with few clues as to its whereabouts, the New Straits Times said today the Boeing 777-200ER dropped 5,000 feet (1,500m) to evade commercial radar detection.

In an exclusive story, the government-backed paper said investigators analysing MH370’s flight data revealed that the 200-tonne, fully laden twinjet descended 1,500m or even lower to evade commercial (secondary) radar coverage after it turned back from its flight path en route to Beijing.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER (9M-MRO) disappeared on March 8 with 239 people on board. Malaysian authorities said on Saturday the plane was deliberately diverted and its on-board transmission devices switched off to avoid detection.

Its last contact was at 8.11am north of the Strait of Malacca.

Investigators poring over MH370’s flight data had said the plane had flown low and used “terrain masking” as it flew over the Bay of Bengal and headed north towards land, the NST reported.

Officials, who formed the technical team, were looking into the possibility that whoever was piloting the jet at that time had taken advantage of the busy airways over the Bay of Bengal and stuck to a commercial route to avoid raising the suspicion of those manning primary (military) radars, the paper said.

“The person who had control over the aircraft has a solid knowledge of avionics and navigation and left a clean track. It passed low over Kelantan, that was true,” the NST quoted an anonymous official as saying.

“Terrain masking” refers to an ability to position an aircraft so there is natural earth hiding it from the radio waves sent from the radar system. It is a technique mostly used in aerial combat where military pilots would fly at extremely low elevations upon normally hilly or mountainous terrain to “mask” their approach.

Experts said flying a Boeing 777 in such a way would be dangerous, stressing the airframe and possibly causing those on board to be air sick and suffer from spatial disorientation.

Flight MH370 flew for an estimated eight hours and the authorities believe it would have flew over two additional countries besides Malaysia, although it's not clear which ones.

On Saturday, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the search for MH370 would now expand to areas beyond Thailand to Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan in the north and beyond Indonesia in the south.

This was after satellite data placed the aircraft in one of two corridors: at the north stretching from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan, or at the south, from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean.

The NST quoting sources said the probe would now focus on regions with disused airports equipped with long runways capable of handling a plane like the Boeing 777.

Putrajaya has briefed envoys from nearly two dozen nations and appealed for international help in the search for the plane.

"The search area has been significantly expanded," acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein said yesterday.

"From focusing mainly on shallow seas, we are now looking at large tracts of land, crossing 11 countries, as well as deep and remote oceans."

Investigations have also focused on the backgrounds of the pilots, crew and ground staff of those who worked on the missing jet.

On Saturday, Special Branch officers searched the homes of the captain, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, and first officer, Fariq Abdul Hamid, 27.

Today, Reuters reports that the last words from the cockpit of missing MH370 – "all right, good night" – were uttered after someone on board had already begun disabling one of the plane's automatic tracking systems.

Both the timing and informal nature of the phrase, spoken to air traffic controllers as the plane was leaving Malaysian-run airspace could further heighten suspicions of hijacking or sabotage, it said.

The sign-off came after one of the plane's data communication systems, which would have enabled it to be tracked beyond radar coverage, had been deliberately switched off, Hishammuddin said yesterday.

"The answer to your question is yes, it was disabled before," he told reporters when asked if the ACARS system – a maintenance computer that sends back data on the plane's status – had been deactivated before the voice sign-off.

Background checks of passengers have drawn a blank but not every country whose nationals were on board has responded to requests for information, Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar said. – March 17, 2014.
http://t.co/KW2ckC982K
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Old March 17th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hed_Kandi View Post
Why would Boeing make a plane where the critical communication systems could be shut off at whim? While they're at it the may as well have an off switch for the black box as well.
Hardly at a whim. It took 14 minutes to get from the data transfer circuit to the transponder circuit, in an area about the size of a sedan. And I don't mean to shoot down your anti-Boeing rant, but you can do the same things in an Airbus, too.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #950
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They will never find this plane if it were the most likely scenario of pilot suicide where he took the plane far into the Indian ocean. Malaysia will be perfectly happy with this though, better than being able to prove that it was pilot suicide. Just look at what happened with Silk air and that case of pilot suicide some 15 years ago. The way I see it one of the pilots, likely the old one based on the information they released, turned off the data transfer circuit, turned off the transponder, put on his oxygen mask, took the plane up to 45,000 feet and depressurized (easy to do). Within 20 min everyone but him would be dead. No cell phone coverage at that altitude and if the plane was equipped with a Picocell system then the pilot would have turned that off as well. He then would have had to go back down to repressurise the plane. After its easy peasy, fly the plane undetected to the Indian ocean and crash it. If he flew as far into the Indian ocean as it looks like (he certainly did not go north, too many radar installations and they know that) he would have reached the Indian ocean gyre so none of the floating wreckage would wash up on any shores for many many years, if it stayed afloat that long. And if it did wash up on a shore years from now it would be on the shores of Chile because if anything it would get spat out to the Arctic circulatory current. As for depths, well they would be in the 4000+ meter range average of the Indian ocean, and the pilot could have easily picked a spot with 5-6-7,000 meter depths. The Indian ocean is huge, the plane in this case will never be found, and in the unlikely event that they would find the needle in the hay sack the depths and the under water terrain and number of days that have already passed and a lack of any tracking data would make it virtually impossible to ever recover vital pieces and any data boxes. Oh and even if they managed the impossible and got the most important piece, the voice recorder, it would have been copied over, and regardless likely switched off as well.

The way I see it this plane will never be found, the pilots families will get their life insurance policies paid out to them, conspiracy theorists will talk about this incident for the next 200 years, and Malaysians aviation accident committee will declare the cause of the accident as inconclusive. No one will ever know what really happened, there will be no way to know beyond speculating based on the incomplete facts we will have.

As for pilot suicide, there are 10,000+ pilots lifting off and landing every day, once in a while yo get a bad apple. Its not normal, but it has happened before, it probably happened now, and it will happen again. That is life.

Oh and taking out the other pilot would have been easy, poison, beat him to death, wait for him to go sleep, lock him out of the cabin, etc. The data receiver box would have been turned off while the plane was on autopilot so the time it takes to do that is a non issue.

Lastly, the only thing that I think that could shock me at this point is if the pilot packed a parachute and dived out of the plane as it passed Malaysia at low altitude and speed, long after he killed off all the passengers and repressurized the plane. Once that plane cleared Malaysian land the rest of its moves, based on the information we have could have been done by a re calibrated autopilot to take that plane far into the Indian ocean. But like I said that would shock me and it would make a spur of the moment decision less likely, which is what it seems like after the court case the captain attended a few hours before his flight.
thats my thoughts on this matter.. :-)
/rant
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Old March 17th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #951
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Delta flight loses piece of wing, lands safely

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A Delta flight from Orlando, Fla., landed safely in Atlanta after declaring an emergency because a part of the plane's wing was missing.

The Federal Aviation Administration says Flight 2412 landed about 7:10 p.m. Sunday at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport. The airplane, a Boeing 757, stopped on the runway and was towed to the gate.

After the flight landed, Delta officials told the FAA that a four-foot by eight-foot panel from one of the airplane's wings was missing.

The FAA is investigating. There was no word from Delta on how many passengers were on the plane. No injuries were reported.
http://t.co/Fr0u5zKSLg
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Old March 17th, 2014, 04:14 PM   #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joangar View Post
Amigo chileno...tampoco he creido...he leido el mensaje en un foro de un periódico y a la persona que da la informacion le he escrito para que entregue algo mas exacto ... mientras me responde creo que pueden ir buscando en la selva.
You must post the link to direct us to your source, it is a SSC rule.

PS: You are not supposed to write in Spanish in the international forum.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 06:10 PM   #953
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Plane search expands from Australia to Kazakhstan

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: The search for the missing Malaysian jet pushed deep into the northern and southern hemispheres Monday as Australia scoured the southern Indian Ocean and Kazakhstan — more than 10,000 kilometers (6,000 miles) to the northwest — answered Malaysia’s call for help in the unprecedented hunt.
French investigators arriving in Kuala Lumpur to lend expertise from the two-year search for an Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in 2009 said they were able to rely on distress signals. But that vital tool is missing in the Malaysia Airlines mystery because flight 370’s communications were deliberately severed ahead of its disappearance more than a week ago, investigators say.
“It’s very different from the Air France case. The Malaysian situation is much more difficult,” said Jean Paul Troadec, a special adviser to France’s aviation accident investigation bureau.
Malaysian authorities say the jet carrying 239 people was intentionally diverted from its flight path during an overnight flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8 and flew off-course for several hours. Suspicion has fallen on the pilots, although Malaysian officials have said they are looking into everyone aboard the flight.
Malaysian police confiscated a flight simulator from the pilot’s home on Saturday and also visited the home of the co-pilot in what Malaysian police chief Khalid Abu Bakar initially said was the first police visits to those homes. But the government — which has come under criticism abroad for missteps and foot-dragging in their release of information — issued a statement Monday contradicting that account by saying police first visited the pilots’ homes as early as March 9, the day after the flight.
Investigators haven’t ruled out hijacking, sabotage, pilot suicide or mass murder, and they are checking the backgrounds of all 227 passengers and 12 crew members, as well as the ground crew, to see if links to terrorists, personal problems or psychological issues could be factors.
For now, though, Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said finding the plane was still the main focus, and he did not rule out finding it intact.
“The fact that there was no distress signal, no ransom notes, no parties claiming responsibility, there is always hope,” Hishammuddin said at a news conference.
Malaysian Airlines CEO Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said an initial investigation indicated that the co-pilot, Fariq Abdul Hamid, spoke the fight’s last words — “All right, good night” — to ground controllers. Had it been a voice other than that of Fariq or the pilot, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, it would have clearest indication yet of something amiss in the cockpit before the flight went off-course.
Malaysian officials earlier said those words came after one of the jetliner’s data communications systems — the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System — had been switched off, sharpening suspicion that one or both of the pilots may have been involved in the plane’s disappearance.
However, Ahmad said Monday that while the last data transmission from ACARS — which gives plane performance and maintenance information — came before that, it was still unclear at what point the system was switched off. That opened the possibility that both ACARS and the plane’s transponders — which make the plane visible to civilian air traffic controllers — were severed later and at about the same time.
Although Malaysian authorities requested that all nations with citizens aboard the flight conduct background checks on them, it wasn’t clear how thoroughly they were conducting such checks at home. The father of a Malaysian aviation engineer aboard the plane, Mohamad Khairul Amri Selamat, 29, said police had not approached anyone in the family about his son, though he added that there was no reason to suspect him.
“It is impossible for him to be involved in something like this,” said the father, Selamat Omar, 60. “He is a good boy ... We are keeping our hopes high. I am praying hard that the plane didn’t crash and that he will be back soon.”
Malaysia’s government in the meantime sent out diplomatic cables to all countries in the search area, seeking more planes and ships for the search, as well as to ask for any radar data that might help narrow the task.
Some 26 countries are involved in the search, which initially focused on seas on either side of peninsular Malaysia, in the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca.
Over the weekend, however, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak announced that investigators determined that a satellite picked up a faint signal from the aircraft about 7 ½ hours after takeoff. The signal indicated the plane would have been somewhere on a vast arc stretching from Kazakhstan down to the southern reaches of the Indian Ocean.
Hishammuddin said Monday that searches in both the northern and southern stretches of the arc had begun, with countries from Australia up north to China and west to Kazakhstan joining the hunt.
Had the plane gone northwest to Central Asia, it would have crossed over countries with busy airspace, and some experts believe it more likely would have gone south, although Malaysian authorities are not ruling out the northern corridor and are eager for radar data that might confirm or rule out that path.
The northern corridor crosses through countries including China, India and Pakistan — all of which have said they have seen no sign of the plane. China, where two thirds of the passengers were from, is providing several planes and 21 satellites for the search, Premier Li Keqiang said in a statement.
“Factors involved in the incident continue to multiply, the area of search and rescue continues to broaden, and the level of difficulty increases, but as long as there is one thread of hope, we will continue an all-out effort,” Li said.
To the south, Indonesia focused on Indian Ocean waters west of Sumatra, air force spokesman Rear Marshall Hadi Tjahjanto said.
Australia agreed to Malaysia’s request to take the lead in scouring the southern Indian Ocean with four Orion maritime planes that also would be joined by New Zealand and US planes, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said.
“Australia will do its duty in this matter,” Abbott told Parliament in Australia. “We will do our duty to the families of the 239 people on that aircraft who are still absolutely devastated by their absence, and who are still profoundly, profoundly saddened by this as yet unfathomed mystery.”
The southern Indian Ocean is the world’s third-deepest and one of the most remote stretches of water in the world, with little radar coverage.
Planes will be searching for any signs of the kind of debris that might float to the surface in a crash. Ahmad, the Malaysia Airlines CEO, said the plane had no unusual cargo, though he said it was carrying several tons of mangosteens, a purple tropical fruit.


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Old March 17th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #954
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This MH370 case remembered me one comic book that i read when i was 8.

Minus extra-terrestrials, this is almost the same story and the same part of the world.

But I'm asking myself why the pilot decided the climb up over 13 000 m (45 000 ft) during at least 20 minutes...and the answer is scary.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 11:17 PM   #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alesmarv View Post
They will never find this plane if it were the most likely scenario of pilot suicide where he took the plane far into the Indian ocean. Malaysia will be perfectly happy with this though, better than being able to prove that it was pilot suicide. Just look at what happened with Silk air and that case of pilot suicide some 15 years ago. The way I see it one of the pilots, likely the old one based on the information they released, turned off the data transfer circuit, turned off the transponder, put on his oxygen mask, took the plane up to 45,000 feet and depressurized (easy to do). Within 20 min everyone but him would be dead. No cell phone coverage at that altitude and if the plane was equipped with a Picocell system then the pilot would have turned that off as well. He then would have had to go back down to repressurise the plane. After its easy peasy, fly the plane undetected to the Indian ocean and crash it. If he flew as far into the Indian ocean as it looks like (he certainly did not go north, too many radar installations and they know that) he would have reached the Indian ocean gyre so none of the floating wreckage would wash up on any shores for many many years, if it stayed afloat that long. And if it did wash up on a shore years from now it would be on the shores of Chile because if anything it would get spat out to the Arctic circulatory current. As for depths, well they would be in the 4000+ meter range average of the Indian ocean, and the pilot could have easily picked a spot with 5-6-7,000 meter depths. The Indian ocean is huge, the plane in this case will never be found, and in the unlikely event that they would find the needle in the hay sack the depths and the under water terrain and number of days that have already passed and a lack of any tracking data would make it virtually impossible to ever recover vital pieces and any data boxes. Oh and even if they managed the impossible and got the most important piece, the voice recorder, it would have been copied over, and regardless likely switched off as well.

The way I see it this plane will never be found, the pilots families will get their life insurance policies paid out to them, conspiracy theorists will talk about this incident for the next 200 years, and Malaysians aviation accident committee will declare the cause of the accident as inconclusive. No one will ever know what really happened, there will be no way to know beyond speculating based on the incomplete facts we will have.

As for pilot suicide, there are 10,000+ pilots lifting off and landing every day, once in a while yo get a bad apple. Its not normal, but it has happened before, it probably happened now, and it will happen again. That is life.

Oh and taking out the other pilot would have been easy, poison, beat him to death, wait for him to go sleep, lock him out of the cabin, etc. The data receiver box would have been turned off while the plane was on autopilot so the time it takes to do that is a non issue.

Lastly, the only thing that I think that could shock me at this point is if the pilot packed a parachute and dived out of the plane as it passed Malaysia at low altitude and speed, long after he killed off all the passengers and repressurized the plane. Once that plane cleared Malaysian land the rest of its moves, based on the information we have could have been done by a re calibrated autopilot to take that plane far into the Indian ocean. But like I said that would shock me and it would make a spur of the moment decision less likely, which is what it seems like after the court case the captain attended a few hours before his flight.
thats my thoughts on this matter.. :-)
/rant
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Old March 17th, 2014, 11:21 PM   #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nawa87 View Post
Delta flight loses piece of wing, lands safely

http://t.co/Fr0u5zKSLg
Here's a pic. Too large so I am just posting a link.

http://imgur.com/59oQPGZ
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Old March 18th, 2014, 08:06 AM   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joangar View Post
If in 10 o 20 years someone find the airplane in the jungle you can´t said that you didnot read about that.
Yep, but I'd still be sure that the guy who wrote that paragraph knew the same information as us about the crash.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 08:09 AM   #958
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Some are saying that Flight MH370 may have landed on a dry lake in Central Asia.


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Old March 18th, 2014, 08:32 AM   #959
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Kazajistán y Kirguistán confirman rastreo de aeronave no identificada hace una semana





Los gobiernos de Kazajistán y Kirguistán afirmaron este lunes que una aeronave no identificada entró en su espacio aéreo el pasado 9 de marzo, el día en que el vuelo MH370 de Malaysia Airlines desapareció con 239 personas a bordo.

Los dos países de Asia Central se encuentran en una de las posibles rutas que el avión extraviado pudo haber tomado, según las últimas informaciones conocidas.

El primer ministro de Malasia, Najib Razak, aseguró el fin de semana que la investigación había entrado en una nueva fase y que puede decirse con "alto nivel de certeza" que el sistema de comunicación de la aeronave fue desconectado intencionalmente.

Además, las sospechas de secuestro o sabotaje aumentaron después de que Malaysia Airlines señalara que el último mensaje de radio desde la cabina -"está bien, buenas noches"- fue dicho luego de que alguien había comenzado a desconectar deliberadamente uno de los sistemas de seguimiento automático del avión.

En este momento 25 países se encuentran involucrados en la búsqueda del MH370.


http://www.ecuavisa.com/articulo/not...eo-aeronave-no


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Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan confirm tracking unidentified aircraft a week ago


The governments of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan said Monday that an unidentified aircraft entered its airspace on 9 March, the day of the flight MH370 Malaysia Airlines disappeared with 239 people on board.

The two countries of Central Asia are in one of the possible routes that the lost plane could have taken, at the last known information .

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said at the weekend that the investigation had entered a new phase and that can be said with " high confidence " that the communication system of the aircraft was intentionally disconnected .

In addition , suspected hijacking or sabotage increased after Malaysia Airlines noted that the last radio message from the cockpit - " it's okay , good night " - was then told that someone had begun to deliberately disconnect one of the monitoring systems automatic airplane .

Currently 25 countries are involved in the search for the MH370 .
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Old March 18th, 2014, 12:17 PM   #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eomer View Post
This MH370 case remembered me one comic book that i read when i was 8.

Minus extra-terrestrials, this is almost the same story and the same part of the world.

But I'm asking myself why the pilot decided the climb up over 13 000 m (45 000 ft) during at least 20 minutes...and the answer is scary.
yeah that was a good comic
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