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Old July 22nd, 2014, 01:11 PM   #1321
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Most of the bigger airlines have risk assessment staff that analyze every flight path in their network. They go beyond what the industry recommends and make independent decisions. Air Canada, British Airways, Air France, and other big carriers have been avoiding Ukraine for months.

I'm not laying blame with Malaysian Airlines, but there's a lesson to be learned here. Industry standards aren't always enough. It's wise to make ones own decisions about what is safe, what's not, and what level of risk one is comfortable with.

I never consider Health Canada's guidelines adequate, for example. There are too many people at that organization asleep at the wheel, no where near thorough enough, or who react to problems rather than being pro-active. This sort of thing goes on in most organizations which we entrust our safety to.
Airliners like From US and UK may have good reason to avoid such area as they are potential prime targets since US/UK and other NATO countries are indirectly involved in the Ukraine crisis.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:25 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by golov View Post
The Russian MOD just held a press conference and revealed their radar data on the Malaysian boeing

p.s. sorry about the translator's english, its horrible
The "second aircraft" was probably part of the 777 (tail? cockpit?) that was big enough to have a radar signature....
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 11:09 AM   #1323
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Delta cancels all Israel flights over missile fear


Delta Air Lines is canceling all flights to Israel until further notice, citing reports that a rocket landed near Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion Airport.

A Delta Boeing 747 from New York was flying over the Mediterranean headed for Tel Aviv on Tuesday when it turned around and flew to Paris instead. Flight 468 had 273 passengers and 17 crew on board.

Airlines and passengers are growing more anxious about safety since last week, when a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was shot down over Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board.

FAA bans U.S. airlines from flying to or from Tel Aviv

The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday afternoon ordered U.S. carriers to stop flying to or from Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv, prohibiting them from traveling through Israel’s largest airport after a rocket landed nearby.

Airlines were banned from flying to Tel Aviv for a 24-hour period beginning on Tuesday at 12:15 p.m. The FAA said it will issue additional guidance by the end of that period.

This prohibition came after a rocket landed about a mile away from the airport, the FAA said.

“The FAA immediately notified U.S. carriers when the agency learned of the rocket strike and informed them that the agency was finalizing [the notice],” the agency said in a statement. “The FAA will continue to monitor and evaluate the situation.”

Even before the FAA’s notice was sent out, several U.S. airlines began canceling flights on Tuesday morning and afternoon.

Delta Airlines was the first to cancel, suspending its service between New York and Tel Aviv after one of its flights between the two cities was diverted. The Delta flight from John F. Kennedy International Airport to Ben Gurion was diverted to Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris.

That flight, which had 273 passengers and 17 crew members on board, was heading to Tel Aviv when it was diverted after the report of a rocket near Ben Gurion.

United Airlines suspended all operations to and from Tel Aviv “until further notice,” the airline said in a statement. Two US Airways flights between Tel Aviv and Philadelphia on Tuesday were also canceled in response to security concerns, said a spokeswoman for American Airlines (which merged with US Airways).

While the FAA notice did not cover airlines based outside the United States, airlines in other countries began to follow suit and cancel flights. Air France said they were suspending flights to Israel until further notice; Air Canada canceled flights to and from Tel Aviv and said it would continue monitoring the situation.

The State Department issued a warning on Monday advising U.S. citizens to delay “non-essential travel to Israel and the West Bank,” owing to the current conflict between Israel and Hamas. This travel warning, replacing one issued earlier in the year, noted that long-range rockets from Gaza have reached Tel Aviv. This was the scene at Ben Gurion at around 2 p.m. in Washington (so around 9 p.m. in Tel Aviv), with travelers lined up at the airport:

News of the diverted Delta flight and the ban on U.S. flights to and from Israel comes just days after a Malaysian passenger jet was shot down in eastern Ukraine, killing 298 people. Authorities believe the flight was shot down by a missile battery located in an area held by pro-Russian separatists, and recorded conversations indicate that rebel leaders believed they were shooting down a military transport jet rather than a commercial airliner.

The shooting down of the plane highlighted the danger faced by airlines operating near areas with armed conflicts and rocket fire. The FAA prohibited any U.S. carriers from flying over eastern Ukraine after the Malaysian flight was shot down.

​Though there was no immediate description of the rocket that landed near Ben Gurion, the hundreds of rockets that Hamas militants have fired into Israel in recent weeks in no way resemble the missile which took down Malaysia Air flight 17 last Thursday. The Hamas weapons are surface to surface rockets that lack sophisticated guidance systems and often fall harmlessly in remote, scarcely populated sections of Israel. The Malaysian airliner was believed to have been struck by a Russian-make Buk SA-11 surface to air missile. The plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when the missile struck.

“The only consideration in issuing the notice was the safety and security of our citizens,” Jen Psaki, spokeswoman for the State Department, said. “The FAA continues to monitor and evaluate the situation, and will issue updated guidelines no later than 24 hours from the time the [notice] went into force.”

Israeli officials had called for the FAA to allow flights to resume, sentiments that were echoed in the U.S. On Tuesday night, former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg announced that he would fly to Israel on El Al — which maintained service to and from Israel — to protest the FAA’s decision.

“The flight restrictions are a mistake that hands Hamas an undeserved victory and should be lifted immediately,” he said in a statement posted on his Web site. “I strongly urge the FAA to reverse course and permit US airlines to fly to Israel.”
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 11:32 AM   #1324
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Originally Posted by Maadeuurija View Post
The "second aircraft" was probably part of the 777 (tail? cockpit?) that was big enough to have a radar signature....
The MoD published data which showed that the second aircraft was a few km away from the Boeing, it then circled the crash site a few times

Some food for thought. Nothing credible yet, but then again nothing less credible than what the state department has provided at this point - backed by links to social media accounts and "virtual" evidence

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?
In the heat of the U.S. media's latest war hysteria -- rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia's President Vladimir Putin -- there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere -- with key questions not being asked or answered.
The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It's hard to believe that -- with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn't show up somewhere.

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.
So why hasn't this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos -- and what they reveal -- been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title "U.S. official: Russia gave systems," without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?

Instead, the Post's Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung wrote from Kiev:

"The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jetliner, a U.S. official said Saturday.
"'We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,' the official said. U.S. intelligence was 'starting to get indications ... a little more than a week ago' that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official... whose identity was withheld by the Post so the official would discuss intelligence matters."

But catch the curious vagueness of the official's wording: "we do believe"; "starting to get indications." Are we supposed to believe -- and perhaps more relevant, do the Washington Post writers actually believe -- that the U.S. government with the world's premier intelligence services can't track three lumbering trucks each carrying large mid-range missiles?

What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is "Russian-made," a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated.

However, to use the "Russian-made" point to suggest that the Russians must have been involved in the shoot-down is misleading at best and clearly designed to influence ill-informed Americans. As the Post and other news outlets surely know, the Ukrainian military also operates Russian-made military systems, including Buk anti-aircraft batteries, so the manufacturing origin has no probative value here.
The rest of the article

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Old July 23rd, 2014, 12:12 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by nawa87 View Post
Delta cancels all Israel flights over missile fear
I wonder if recent events will make ICAO reconsider some safety rules...
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 12:45 PM   #1326
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I see bullet holes there.
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 01:01 PM   #1327
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This is shrapnel damage from a missile strike.
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 04:32 PM   #1328
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51 people killed in an emergency ladning in Taiwan.
What an awful summer for aviation...
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 04:35 PM   #1329
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 05:37 PM   #1330
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Originally Posted by ovnours View Post
51 people killed in an emergency ladning in Taiwan.
What an awful summer for aviation...
Flight GE 222 was operated by a 14-year old ATR flying to Penghu from Kaohsiung. Departure was delayed from 4pm to 5:43pm due to bad weather and they had difficulties landing due to the weather.

The pilot was aged 60 and had 22900 hours of experience over 15 years and came originally from the military. The co-pilot was aged 39 and had 2300 flying hours.

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Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:22 PM   #1331
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Originally Posted by Equario View Post
Ukraine completely closed airspace within the conflict zone. No need to worry about that.
They did that back 2 months ago! But someone still routed MH17 in the area.
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:41 PM   #1332
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Originally Posted by Munwon View Post
They did that back 2 months ago! But someone still routed MH17 in the area.
Err... No they didn't. The fully closed airpace was only around the Crimea-area, not in the east
In Eastern-Ukraine the minimum altitude for planes was just below 10000 meters (30000 feet) and the plane was flying higher than that.
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:46 PM   #1333
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No, they didn't close the airspace two months ago. They issued certain restrictions involving a lot of airways, but up to a certain altitude in Dnepropetrovsk FIR and close Simferopol FIR (or at least a large part of it) . FL280-FL300, something like that, I don't remember, I'd have to dig through all of the NOTAMs again. You do understand airspace is 3D, right?

But you know what? We've been through this several times already and you still simply make shit up. There's no other way to put it - you simply make shit up.


Dutch air accident investigators say they have found no evidence that MH17 black boxes were tampered with - @Reuters

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Old July 24th, 2014, 04:27 AM   #1334
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As of 6:30 am, Taipei Time, the count stands at 48 dead, 10 injured. 52 of the passengers were Taiwanese and 2 were Foreigners (Unspecified).

Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Flight GE 222 was operated by a 14-year old ATR flying to Penghu from Kaohsiung. Departure was delayed from 4pm to 5:43pm due to bad weather and they had difficulties landing due to the weather.

The pilot was aged 60 and had 22900 hours of experience over 15 years and came originally from the military. The co-pilot was aged 39 and had 2300 flying hours.

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Old July 24th, 2014, 04:40 AM   #1335
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Shocking year for aviation so far!

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Old July 24th, 2014, 07:18 AM   #1336
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Breaking News:

U.S. ends ban on flights into Israel's Ben Gurion Airport

Washington (CNN) -- The Federal Aviation Administration removed its ban on U.S. passenger planes flying to and from Tel Aviv Wednesday night, a day-and-a-half after stopping all the flights citing security concerns.

Israeli officials have been lobbying Washington to reverse its decision which was put in place after a Hamas rocket struck close to the airport on Tuesday. Other international airlines followed suit, canceling many flights to Israel's Ben Gurion International Airport in the last two days.

Now that the ban is lifted, the three U.S. airlines that fly to Israel -- Delta, United and US Airways -- will need to decide when they will resume flights.

In a statement released late Wednesday evening, the FAA said it "worked with its U.S. Government counterparts to assess the security situation in Israel and carefully reviewed both significant new information and measures the government of Israel is taking to mitigate potential risks to civil aviation."

The Obama administration came under some criticism by a key pro-Israel lobbying group, and also Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz who had alleged the ban was put in place to pressure Israel to agree to a cease fire.

The charge was denied by US officials, including Deputy National Security Advisor Anthony Blinken who insisted to CNN's Wolf Blitzer that politics played no role in the decision.

"We didn't use the FAA to do anything. The FAA makes independent judgments for safety and security of our airline passengers and for our airlines," Blinken said. "They made a judgment and we're not in the business of second guessing the FAA or overturning what they do."

Former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg flew to Israel on El Al airlines as a show of support for Israel. Speaking to Blitzer, Bloomberg said he thought the FAA made a "mistake."

"We certainly don't want to stop flights into airports in America," he said. "It would be devastating for America. It's devastating for Israel when you stop flights."

The FAA said it is continuing to monitor the "very fluid situation around Ben Gurion Airport and will take additional actions, as necessary."
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Old July 24th, 2014, 08:03 AM   #1337
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Tragedy Fails to Quiet Ukraine
Missiles and gun fires are the common types of weapons used to target aircrafts in Ukraine

Two Ukrainian fighter jets were shot down Wednesday over separatist-held territory not far from the site of the Malaysia Airlines crash as international outrage over the tragedy has done little to slow the fierce fighting in eastern Ukraine.

While Kiev made significant advances against rebels in the country's east in recent days, Ukrainian and U.S. officials say Russian weapons are continuing to pour over the border. The escalation in fighting suggests Russian President Vladimir Putin has no intention of dialing back his support for the separatists, denting Western hopes that international attention from the airliner crash would force him to change course.

"The fact that you have two additional planes shot down speaks to the pattern we've seen over the last several weeks—which is Russian-backed separatists, armed with Russian anti-aircraft [weapons], posing risks to aircraft in Ukraine," said Ben Rhodes, a deputy White House national security adviser.

Kiev has pressed on with its offensive against the rebels despite calls to halt the fighting in the aftermath of the crash. The government said Wednesday that Kremlin-backed separatists in the east were attacking Ukrainian troops with Russian-supplied truck-mounted missile launchers, mining buildings, and blowing up bridges and burning down wheat fields upon their retreat. Kiev said it retook two cities even as a days-long fight continued for Lysychansk, the base of a leading insurgent commander.

Mr. Putin, who has denied supporting the rebels, remained defiant. His apparent unwillingness to pressure the separatists to lay down their arms—even after the global outcry over the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that killed 298 civilians—poses a challenge for U.S. and European diplomats who have for months tried to offer him a diplomatic route to step back from Ukraine.

The shoot-down of the Ukrainian warplanes—an attack the rebels took credit for but that Kiev said it believed came from Russian territory—marks the first time a plane has been brought down over Ukraine since Flight 17 was downed last Thursday.

The U.S. is working with Ukraine to determine the circumstances surrounding the downing of the Su-25 fighters, Col. Steve Warren, the Pentagon press secretary, said. U.S. officials said they had developed little information on the most recent strikes and their origin as of Wednesday. But officials have said "a preponderance of the evidence" indicates that a Ukrainian cargo plane brought down July 14 was hit by a surface-to air missile fired from the Russian side of the border.

With Mr. Putin appearing undeterred from continuing to fuel a conflict in Ukraine's east in what diplomats and analysts say is an attempt to cripple Kiev's turn toward the West, senior European diplomats will meet Thursday to decide on new sanctions targets. They will also discuss a plan to impose sanctions on entire sectors of the Russian economy, including high-tech goods and oil and gas exploration equipment.

Foreign ministers from the European Union this week said they would activate that plan if Russia didn't use its sway over the rebels to allow international investigators access to the Malaysia Airlines crash site and stop the flow of weapons and men across the border from Russia. With progress being made on the first condition, an EU diplomat said governments will be focusing on whether Mr. Putin has scaled back his alleged support for the rebels.

"We're pleased with the steps they're taking," Mr. Rhodes said, noting European countries are considering possible sanctions in energy, finance and arms sectors. "The message they sent yesterday is that they're looking into sectorial sanctions in these areas, and that is certainly what we want to see from them."

A decision to impose sanctions targeting entire Industrial sectors could come as early as next week, European diplomats have said.

While Kiev says it has made significant advances against the rebels in recent days—and nearly halved the territory they hold in the past five weeks—the continued Kremlin support for the insurgents raises the prospect of a bloody and drawn-out conflict. The rebels say they are retreating in order to dig in around a smaller number of towns, which are closer to the border with Russia that Ukraine's army says it hasn't been able to seal.

Russia has continued its support to the separatists even since the crash of Flight 17, sending tanks and rocket launchers, U.S. intelligence officials said. "We don't think they have stopped," said one. "We think they continue to do it." Moscow denies this.

Russia and the West have both called for talks, but Ukrainian officials say the rebels are little more than bands of gunmen whose main leaders are Russian citizens with few ties to the region. That makes it hard for Kiev to negotiate over its "peace plan," which offers greater local powers over economic and cultural decisions.

Kiev has previously said that missiles have been fired at its jets from across the border, a claim Russia has denied.

The U.S. and Ukraine have presented a case that Flight 17 was brought down last week in a missile strike fired from a sophisticated Buk missile system they say was provided by Russia and was then smuggled back across the porous border. Russia has routinely denied aiding the insurgency.

On Wednesday, the two Ukrainian warplanes were flying at an altitude of about 17,000 feet when they were hit, said Ukrainian security spokesman Col. Andriy Lysenko —too high for the rebels to reach with the weapons they are now believed to possess.

"According to our preliminary information, they [the planes] were downed from abroad," Col. Lysenko said. That account couldn't be independently confirmed.

A message posted on a social-media page associated with rebel military leader Igor Girkin, who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for destroying the two planes using shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles. Video posted on the site showed the remains of what appeared to be the planes smoldering in grassy fields in rebel-held territory.

The shoulder-fired missiles have a much lower reach and wouldn't be able to hit a plane at 17,000 feet. Neither Russia nor the rebels immediately responded to Col. Lysenko's claim.

Moscow continued to come under rhetorical fire from the West, a day after the European Union agreed to escalate sanctions. "Russia has in the past promised much to defuse the conflict, but has rarely delivered," a German Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said.

A spokesman for German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that reports continued to come in of Russian weapons streaming across the border and that the Kremlin didn't appear to be interested in a comprehensive investigation of the causes of the Malaysia Airlines crash. He said the Kremlin also didn't appear to be willing to fully exercise its influence on the rebels, who are led, the spokesman said, by longtime Russian intelligence agents.

Mr. Putin has shown few signs of backing down. On Monday, Russian defense officials presented an alternate version of events in the Flight 17 crash, suggesting the Malaysian airliner had been possibly shot down by the Ukrainian government, a theory viewed with deep skepticism in the West.

The following day Mr. Putin offered blistering criticism of Ukraine's continued military operation against the separatists, and accused the West of trying to weaken Russia and of issuing ultimatums.

The Defense Ministry said the two Su-25 planes were brought down near the villages of Savur-Mohyla and Dmytrivka, which sit close to the Russian border and are around 20 kilometers (12 miles) from Torez, where the civilian jet was brought down a week ago. The pilots managed to successfully eject from the planes, the ministry said.

The Ukrainian defense ministry said the two attack planes had been providing aerial support to ground units fighting with the rebels along the Russian border.

Earlier on Wednesday, Mr. Strelkov told Russia's LifeNews website that rebel fighters had abandoned two nearby key positions along the border at Kozhevnya and Chervona Zorya to avoid becoming surrounded. He said rebel fighters had pulled back from the town of Karlivka, just west of the regional capital of Donetsk, for the same reason.

Col. Lysenko said Ukrainian forces had also recaptured the cities of Severodonetsk and Popasna in the Luhansk region and were fighting for the nearby city of Lysychansk. He said that the flow of arms across the Russian border appeared to be continuing and said Russian forces were also exerting "psychological pressure" on Ukrainian border guards by charging toward them in tanks as though they were about to attack and then turning away at the last minute.

He said retreating separatists were also destroying infrastructure, such as a bridge near Horlivka.

Ukraine's State Border Guard Service said several of its posts had come under mortar and rocket fire overnight Wednesday, claiming the bombardment had come from the Russian side of the border.

Two days before Flight 17 crashed, Ukraine said one of its AN-26 cargo planes was shot down from an altitude of 21,000 feet by a missile near the Russia border. It said the missile appeared to have come from Russia, although Moscow denied any responsibility.

The next day, Ukraine's defense ministry said an Su-25 attack plane was shot down in Donetsk by a Russian military plane. Moscow again denied any involvement.

—Matthew Dalton in Brussels contributed to this article.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #1338
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Originally Posted by browncolour View Post

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Old July 24th, 2014, 12:37 PM   #1339
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Algeria 'loses contact with plane'

Air Algerie - Algeria's national airline - says it has lost contact with one of its planes flying from Burkina Faso


Flight radar tweeted that they have no coverage in that area
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Old July 24th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #1340
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