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Old March 25th, 2015, 08:51 PM   #1521
Maadeuurija
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I would guess based on the current information it was a controlled descent into ground because either a) disoriented crew and/or autopilot which was broken because by some probe/computer error... Wouldn't be the first time...
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Old March 26th, 2015, 01:55 AM   #1522
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OK I was reading more about that. So it really looks like a decompression in pilot cabin, they maybe tried to do something, but they didn't make it due to a loss of oxygen and or very low temperature. So they passed away and plane was triggered into descent, until they hit the mountains.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 02:43 AM   #1523
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Quote:
Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France


PARIS — As officials struggled Wednesday to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed in relatively clear skies, an investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in.

A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.

“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

While the audio seemed to give some insight into the circumstances leading up to the Germanwings crash, it also left many questions unanswered.

"We don’t know yet the reason why one of the guys went out,” said the official, who requested anonymity because the investigation is continuing. "But what is sure is that at the very end of the flight, the other pilot is alone and does not open the door."

The data from the voice recorder seems only to deepen the mystery surrounding the crash and provides no indication of the condition or activity of the pilot who remained in the cockpit. The descent from 38,000 feet over about 10 minutes was alarming but still gradual enough to indicate that the twin-engine Airbus A320 had not been damaged catastrophically . At no point during the descent was there any communication from the cockpit to air traffic controllers or any other signal of an emergency.

When the plane plowed into craggy mountains northeast of Nice, it was traveling with enough speed that it was all but pulverized, killing the 144 passengers and crew of six and leaving behind almost no apparent clues about what caused the crash.

The French aviation authorities have made public very little, officially, about the nature of the information that has been recovered from the audio recording, and it was not clear whether it was partial or complete. France’s Bureau of Investigations and Analyses confirmed only that human voices and other cockpit sounds had been detected and would be subjected to detailed analysis.

Asked about the new evidence revealed in the cockpit recordings, Martine del Bono, a bureau spokeswoman, declined to comment.

"Our teams continue to work on analyzing the CVR,” she said, referring to the cockpit voice recorder. "As soon as we have accurate information we intend to hold a press conference.”

Meanwhile, prosecutors in Marseille, who have been charged with a separate criminal inquiry into the crash, could not immediately be reached for comment. Brice Robin, the Marseille prosecutor, was due to meet Thursday morning with the families of the crash victims.

At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact.

The flight’s trajectory ahead of the crash also left many unanswered questions.

Rémi Jouty, the director of the French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis, said at a news conference that the plane took off at around 10 a.m. local time from Barcelona and that the last message sent from the pilot to air traffic controllers had been at 10:30 a.m., which indicated that the plane was proceeding on course.

But minutes later, the plane inexplicably began to descend, Mr. Jouty said. At 10:40 and 47 seconds, the plane reported its last radar position, at an altitude of 6,175 feet. “The radar could follow the plane until the point of impact,” he said.

Mr. Jouty said the plane slammed into a mountainside and disintegrated, scattering debris over a wide area, and making it difficult to analyze what had happened.

It often takes months or even years to determine the causes of plane crashes, but a little more than a year after the disappearance of a Malaysian airlines jetliner that has never been found, the loss of the Germanwings flight is shaping up to be particularly perplexing to investigators.

One of the main questions outstanding is why the pilots did not communicate with air traffic controllers as the plane began its unusual descent, suggesting that either the pilots or the plane’s automated systems may have been trying to maintain control of the aircraft as it lost altitude.

Among the theories that have been put forward by air safety analysts not involved in the investigation is the possibility that the pilots could have been incapacitated by a sudden event such as a fire or a drop in cabin pressure.

A senior French official involved in the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that the lack of communication from the pilots during the plane’s descent was disturbing, and that the possibility that their silence was deliberate could not be ruled out.

“I don’t like it,” said the French official, who cautioned that his initial analysis was based on the very limited information currently available. “To me, it seems very weird: this very long descent at normal speed without any communications, though the weather was absolutely clear.”

This official said that the lack of communication suggested that the pilots might have been incapacitated as a result of an onboard failure such as a loss of cabin pressure, which could have deprived the crew members of oxygen.

While all pilots are equipped with emergency oxygen masks, the pilots would first have to be aware that a depressurization had occurred, the official said.

“If for any reason they don’t detect the problem in time, they would black out,” the official said.

“So far, we don’t have any evidence that points clearly to a technical explanation,” the official said. “So we have to consider the possibility of deliberate human responsibility.”

Mr. Jouty said it was far too early in the investigation to speculate about possible causes.

“At this moment I have no beginning of a scenario,” Mr. Jouty said. However, he said there was not yet any evidence available that would support either a theory of a depressurization or of a midair explosion

Continue reading the main story
Speaking on the French radio station RTL, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Wednesday morning that terrorism was not a likely “hypothesis at the moment,” but that no theories had been definitively excluded. Mr. Cazeneuve said the size of the area over which debris was scattered suggested that the aircraft had not exploded in the air but rather had disintegrated on impact.

Lufthansa, the parent company of Germanwings, has characterized the crash as an accident. The airline has not disclosed the identities of the pilots, except to say that the captain was a 10-year veteran with more than 6,000 hours of flying time in A320s.

The French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis, which is leading the technical inquiry into the crash, sent seven investigators to the crash site on Tuesday. They have been joined by their counterparts from Germany, as well as by technical advisers from Airbus and CFM International, the manufacturer of the plane’s engines.

Speaking on Europe 1 radio, Jean-Paul Troadec, a former director of the French air accident investigation bureau, said one of the big challenges for investigators would be to protect the debris at the crash site from any inadvertent damage.

“We need to ensure that all the evidence is well preserved,” Mr. Troadec said, referring both to the pieces of the plane littered across the steep slopes as well as to the remains of the victims. The identification of the victims will most likely require matching DNA from the remains with samples from relatives.

The recovery effort will be a laborious task, given the state of the wreckage, the difficult terrain and the fact that the crash site is so remote that it could be reached only by helicopter.

Cabin depressurization, one of the possibilities speculated about on Wednesday, has occurred before, perhaps most notably in the crash of a Cypriot passenger plane in 2005 that killed all 121 people on board as it approached Athens. In that case, Helios Airways Flight 522, a slow loss of pressure rendered both pilots and all the passengers on the Boeing 737 jet unconscious for more than three-quarters of an hour before the aircraft ran out of fuel and slammed into a wooded gorge near the Greek capital.

Investigators eventually determined that the primary cause of that crash was a series of human errors, including deficient maintenance checks on the ground and a failure by the pilots to heed emergency warning signals.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...id=tw-bna&_r=0
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Old March 26th, 2015, 03:43 AM   #1524
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What's going on........
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Old March 26th, 2015, 03:48 AM   #1525
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Well that sounds a little ominous.....
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Old March 26th, 2015, 03:50 AM   #1526
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Terrorism
Pilot Suicide
Medical emergency while the other cockpit is locked out?

Wow, I cant imagine what those people where going through.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 10:14 AM   #1527
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Quote:
For the record, I looked up and found the flight crew operating manual for the Airbus A320 plane just now. I read the whole section regarding the cockpit security system. There is in fact a keypad outside the cockpit door. Normally it can be used to request access to the cockpit, using a code. It sounds a buzzer in the cockpit.

There is an emergency code that can be entered, which if no action is taken inside the cockpit that will unlock the door automatically.

However the pilot in the cockpit can put the door in Lock mode. which overrides the Buzzer, the keypad and emergency access for a pre-selected time of anywhere between 5 - 20 minutes.

According to this the only way the pilot outside the cockpit would have not been able to use the emergency code is if the pilot inside used the Lock function. That would disable the emergency lock long enough to crash the plane.

One other thing. In case of cockpit pressure loss, the door unlocks automatically. It didn't unlock thus there was no pressure loss.
- Craig Albrechtson at Huffington Post

Also a video explaining the locking system:

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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:04 PM   #1528
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That's some very useful information, thanks!
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Old March 26th, 2015, 02:49 PM   #1529
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It all sounds scary, and bizzare at the same time If it was some kind of a suicide mission, then how can you ever trust the people that are flying your plane?! I won't jump into any conclusions, it's way too early to say anything...
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Old March 26th, 2015, 02:59 PM   #1530
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It was just stated in a press conference that the co-pilot deliberately downed the plane
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Old March 26th, 2015, 03:00 PM   #1531
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Breaking BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Quote:
Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'started descent'

The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight that crashed into the French Alps took sole control of plane and intentionally started the descent, officials say.
French prosecutors, citing information from the cockpit voice recorder said the pilot had just left the cockpit and had been unable to re-enter it.
Updated! looks like he crashed the plane deliberately.

Quote:
The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight that crashed into the French Alps wanted to "destroy the plane", French investigators have said.

Last edited by tosic; March 26th, 2015 at 03:05 PM.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 03:05 PM   #1532
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Let me back up my statement above with a source:

Quote:
Co-pilot started plane's descent
"Then we hear the commander asking the co-pilot to take over.

"Then we hear the sound of a chair being pushed back on the door closing.

"The co-pilot uses the flight monitoring system to start the descent of the plane.

"This action can only be voluntary - it is not automatic."
Quote:
Co-pilot 'alive and breathing when he crashed plane'
[...]
"We hear breathing and you can hear this breathing until the moment of impact, so we know the co-pilot was still alive. at this point."
Quote:
'Breathing normal, no sense of panic'
Mr Robin repeats that the co-pilot's breathing was "normal".

"There's no sense of panic.

"It classic human breathing so we think he was alive.

"It seems like this, at least, in the recording."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...pdates-5401806
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Old March 26th, 2015, 08:46 PM   #1533
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They should change the Emergency code procedure to something that would eliminate something like this happening again... Maybe the Lock mode should be limited to 5min after which the code could be entered(during a period of 5min after which it can be locked again) and the code should be randomly generated before each flight?
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Old March 26th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #1534
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The rule to always have 2 people in the cockpit should already be enough. If the captain or the co-pilot has to go to the bathroom one member of the cabin crew should replace him or her in the cockpit. This is already mandatory in the US, and common practice at several airlines from other parts of the world.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #1535
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Ok, folks... looks like the speculation game has begun on the Germanwings tragedy. I understand that all of us have their own thoughts, opinions, and ideas about what really happened, why things happened, and what could have been done to address the matter. But, on the matter of discussing pilots who may or may not be Muslim as "terrorists" or otherwise (that caused or led to the accident), please, this is NOT the right place to bring up that matter. If you have nothing else to say other than "if Muslim piloted the plane down", then you should be warned that you may be suspended from posting in, if not expelled from, the forum.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 11:20 AM   #1536
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Before 9/11 there was no security door into the airplane cockpit, but after Mohammed Atta and his gang broke into the cockpit of AA flight 11 and used boxcutters to cripple the pilots, there were security doors installed on all aircrafts.

Then with the security door installed, depressed pilot Andreas Lubitz managed to take over a germanwings aircraft and crash it in the alps. Maybe this similar scenario also happend to the Malaysian Airlines plane that went missing in the indian ocean.

A Security door is a double edge sword, it cut both ways.

I didnt fly since 1997 and I probably will never fly anymore. If something goes wrong aboard an aircraft it could get fatal. If an accident happends to a bus/ferry/train it's very uncommon that all people aboard die, at least you have a chance of survival, but when a jumbojet goes down you cant do anything.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 12:10 PM   #1537
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Flying is safer than any of them you just mentioned
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Old March 27th, 2015, 12:25 PM   #1538
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If it is a mass murder/suicide, the improvement to the flight deck I'd make is:

1) Whenever a pilot/co-pilot needs to leave the flight deck for whatever reason, the senior flight attendant must take their place. It may lead to having the senior flight attendant being given simulator training for classes of aircraft.

2) The door lock system needs changed. Unsure how this can be done, but I'd suggest that a code can be entered that the transponder recognises as a pilot hijack and sends out a squawk to correspond to this. That is one area I'd change.

3) The final thing I'd do is that whenever a change/deviation from the agreed course in autopilot, both pilot and co-pilot need to enter a password into their side of the flight deck. Think of something like when a submarine launches a missile for a crude example.

One thing that needs to be looked at, and it harks back to the fall of MH370/MH17/QZ8501 and now 4U9525 that there needs to be a live telemetry beam back to the operator/manufacturer in some way. Black boxes should have the full parameters yes, but if there was a 60sec beam back by every aircraft reporting maybes 256 or 512 items of data including GPS/Altitude/Track. I know there are people more qualified than me can answer this technically. Surly there are enough satellites up in space that can handle this, even re-activate older satellites to handle this increased bandwidth/data?

These past 18 months have been a wake up call to the aviation industry. An industry that adapts to change better than any out there. The next few years will show how much can change.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #1539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tosic View Post
Flying is safer than any of them you just mentioned
It´s safe until something happends. For those 150 passengers aboard the Germanwings flight 9525 it wasnt safe, it was lethal.
If there is a malfunction aboard your mode of transport, what would you choose to travel with?
Car, bus, ferry, train or aircraft ?

Same thing with nuclear power stations. Yes those are safe, but only until an accident occurs.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 12:55 PM   #1540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Same thing with nuclear power stations. Yes those are safe, but only until an accident occurs.
Same counts for your car.
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