Birmingham Grand Central station & High Speed 2

[MoseleyTown]

That's what I'm assuming as well, London costs, that's still a heck of a difference. That's probably why they get much more central government funding per head than birmingham, manchester etc then....

[Mwmbwls]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

It will be to the south of the listed building.

In this render, the listed building is to the left of, and more or less in line with, the topmost of the three rectangular "boxes" in the roof of the station.

Many thanks

[PSS1980]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

Manchester and Leeds are getting new stations (it's already been announced that these branches are going to be built so that captive HSR trains can use them and that requires new stations, or at least new buildings on existing sites). These stations will be slightly smaller than Birmingham's (as they will need 2 fewer platforms) but will otherwise need to be of a similar specification. The major cost differences between the northern branches and southern trunk is due to the expense of getting into London and rebuilding Euston; nothing to do with Birmingham.

Yes tunneling down south is the main cost difference I would imagine, the 2 new HS2 station for Birmingham probably wont cost much less than the expansion of Eustion.....and of source Manc and Leeds stations will be 1/3rd or so smaller due to 4 platforms and not 6....

[Tinpusher]

The original High Speed Train.

London to Birmingham at 960 mph.

Cab ride filmed in 1962, so lovely retro cityscapes and Snow Hill looking fine and majestic, rather than like a concrete dungeon.

[ReissOmari]

Look how nice Snow Hill looked

[U475 Foxtrot]

why is there a milkman driving the train

[Nacho]

The following article belongs to many threads but let's put it here ; an enjoyable read :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...irmingham.html

[vanson]

Originally Posted by Nacho

The following article belongs to many threads but let's put it here ; an enjoyable read :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...irmingham.html

Suberb article.My father lived in Edmonton green in London.His house was worth 250,000 last year and basically compared to my large semi it is a matchbox.Some Londoners i feel live in a dream world thinking nothing exists outside of london.In Birmingham at least we can afford a driveway to park our car in.Strange country we live in.

[oxo]

The best argument not to go ahead with HS2 – British incompetence, mismanagement and greed which will persist even with HS2.
Introductory part of the article taken from today's Independent:

Think-tank claims Britain's railways are 'worst in Europe league'

ALAN JONES.

Britain's railways are at the bottom of the league for fares, efficiency and comfort compared with other European countries, according to a union-commissioned study today.

The report by think-tank Just Economics said UK rail services were less affordable, less comfortable, slower, more inefficient and more expensive than in other European countries.
The frequency of trains was the only area in which the UK performed better than France, Germany, Spain and Italy, according to the research.

“In terms of bang for buck, not only does the UK come bottom of the index of outcomes but it also spends a relatively large amount of money to achieve this woeful result. This means that it also comes bottom of the value for money league,” said the report.

[sefton66]

The frequency of trains was the only area in which the UK performed better than France, Germany, Spain and Italy, according to the research.

So your saying we don't need hs2 which will make travel quicker and thus more comfortable through speed of journey and increased seats for journeys, more efficient and likely reduce costs on other long distance journeys because currently our trains are less affordable, less comfortable, slower, more inefficient and more expensive than that of other country's? I'm struggling to understand why it's the biggest argument against hs2?

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by oxo

[B]The best argument not to go ahead with HS2

If this is it, lets get the shovels out now!

Britain's railways are at the bottom of the league for fares, efficiency and comfort compared with other European countries, according to a union-commissioned study today.
<snip>
“In terms of bang for buck, not only does the UK come bottom of the index of outcomes but it also spends a relatively large amount of money to achieve this woeful result. This means that it also comes bottom of the value for money league,” said the report.

Union-commissioned study highlighting the main problem with our railways is the one that wasn't there with nationalized railways...
...in other news, we get winter weather in winter!

It talks about comfort and crowding being problems - surely we should deal with that by adding a massive amount of capacity on some of our major intercity routes? And slower - how might we speed up journeys by running faster trains to regional destinations, by removing stops (can do that if you have some spare paths) and faster intercity trains (by running them at twice the max speed)?

HS2 is part of the answer to a lot of the problems that the report highlights.

[oxo]

No, what I'm saying is that the self-serving and incompetent nature of British companies, politicians, consultancies, management, etc. can not be trusted to provide us with a service within budget, well managed and organised with reasonable and simple fare structures.

If we were in Germany, for example, I would be very pro HS2 or any massive infrastructure project undertaken in that country because the German public can be assured of a reasonably priced and quality service in every way.

Our trains are presently less affordable and inefficient because the rail system is “managed” by primarily self-serving and hugely incompetent wankstains who need massive salaries/bonuses to try and keep them even faintly motivated – this will not change regardless of whether or not HS2 happens.

[LNGCats]

HS1 was delivered on time and under budget from Ashford to St Pancras.

[oxo]

That's like increasing the size of the goals four-fold and then bragging about how many goals you scored.

The HS1 project’s funding was established with a budget as high as £6.15bn. In Germany a project such as HS1 would have been sooner completed and would have cost and been budgeted at considerably less.

Besides, let us take a look at how HS1 has impacted regionally by way of fare structure.
(1) London - Canterbury and (2) London - Peterborough which is a further distance than (1).
Look at the difference in fares from about a year ago.

London - Canterbury (Peterborough via East Coast)
Off peak Single £30.10 (£27.90)
Advance Single not avialable (start from £7.10)
Anytime Single £31.20 (£47.00)
Off Peak day return £30.20 (£28.00)
Off Peak return £30.50 (£66.70 Super off-peak £39.40)
Anytime Day £32.90 (not avialable?)
Anytime Return £57.70 (£94.00)
1st Return £78.60 (£124.00)

I quote a disgruntled commuter from a railUK forum blog by the name of Failed Unit:
"How South Eastern can get away with selling the 1st Return between St Pancras and any HS1 destination is beyond me, I hope they tell people that the trains don't have 1st class so they can avoid another rip off!
Does anyone feel that HS1 is value for money, when all you are getting is a 125mph, which on ECML and WCML cost you less to travel on off-peak anyway. Also is a 365 much worse inside than a 395 when you consider the fare FCC offer?"

We are dealing with management, contractors, self-serving politicians and CEO's who are totally inept by providing the worst rail service of over 30 nations in Europe, but ironically are the most highly rewarded with insanely generous salaries/bonuses.


.

[skybluecity]

Originally Posted by LNGCats

HS1 was delivered on time and under budget from Ashford to St Pancras.

Of course it was. Our track record in this country for delivering large & complex infrastructure projects is good. Civil engineering is one of this country's great strengths, and those who suggest otherwise are idiots. British civil engineers are in demand all over the world (including on a management level - in fact especially at management level), but that doesn't really fit with oxo's "everything in this country is shit" line.

That there are issues with our current rail system is without question. Tickets are overpriced and the experience can be terrible. None of this however has any bearing on the ability of contractors to deliver HS2 on time and on-budget.

I have lived and worked in another EU country and was not at all impressed with the rail system there. Also, it's worth noting that in this country we don't have a neat and tidy distribution of population centres with plenty of distance in between them which is ideal for rail. We have a very uneven population distribution and also England is the most densely populated country in Europe. All these factors will naturally add to the complexity, cost and feasibility of large rail infrastructure projects.

I'm opposed to HS2 for purely selfish reasons - that it is effectively the Coventry Rail Bypass, but I can certainly understand the wider case for it.

[Guilbert53]

I realised the other day I did not know exactly where HS2 was going in and around Birmingham, so I copied it off the plans
on to a Birmingham A toZ. The A to Z is the large "ring binder" version.

I dont claim any great accuracy for the route I have drawn so it should only be taken as a rough indication.

I will first cover the "North - South" route as it runs along the East of Birmingham.

As a start below is page 83, which is just North of Coleshill and South of the Belfry golf club. As you can see
it runs East of the M42.

The line going North / South is the main route, and the line going off to the left is going in to Birmingham.



Below is page 105, which follows direct South from page 83 above.

This page covers the area between Chelmsley Wood on the left and Coleshill on the right. As you can see it runs roughly
betwen the M6 and the M42



Below is page 125, which follows direct South from page 105 above.

The HS2 route only skirts the top right of the page, just above the Airport and NEC



Below is page 126, which "skips" one page to the right from page 125 above.

Here HS2 crosses the A45 near the Stonebridge roundabout.

On the right of the map you can see "Packington Estate" which contains Packington Hall. Much of the land round
here is owned by the Packington Estate and they get large rents for many of the things built around here (like the
motorways that run nearby I believe).

More on the estate here

http://www.packingtonestate.net/estate_main.html



Below is page 148, which follows direct South from page 126 above.

The route is starting to curve away from Birmingham now, as it goes East of Hampton in Arden.

This page is roughly "level" with Solihull, which is on page 146, two pages to the West.



Below is page 149, which "skips" one page to the right from page 148 above.

HS2 only skims the bottom left corner of the page, running near Berkswell. As you can see, Meriden is at the
top of the page.



Below is page 171, which follows direct South from page 149 above.

The HS2 route still moving Eastwards, away from Birmingham, going East of Balsall Common.

Note this "page" is on the same level as places like Knowle, Dorridge, Hollywood, Rubery and Bromsgrove, though well East of
them of course. It is also still "North" of much of the M42 that runs South of Birmingham.

Below is the last page I will post from the North/South route as it now starts to leave Birmingham and go South of
Coventry.

Later I will post the "East / West" route as it goes from page 83 (the first map I posted) into Birmingham City Centre.

[BhamJim]

That last photo alone is going to cause millions in property devaluation.

[oxo]

Originally Posted by skybluecity

Of course it was. Our track record in this country for delivering large & complex infrastructure projects is good. Civil engineering is one of this country's great strengths, and those who suggest otherwise are idiots. British civil engineers are in demand all over the world (including on a management level - in fact especially at management level), but that doesn't really fit with oxo's "everything in this country is shit" line.

That there are issues with our current rail system is without question. Tickets are overpriced and the experience can be terrible. None of this however has any bearing on the ability of contractors to deliver HS2 on time and on-budget.

I have lived and worked in another EU country and was not at all impressed with the rail system there. Also, it's worth noting that in this country we don't have a neat and tidy distribution of population centres with plenty of distance in between them which is ideal for rail. We have a very uneven population distribution and also England is the most densely populated country in Europe. All these factors will naturally add to the complexity, cost and feasibility of large rail infrastructure projects.

I'm opposed to HS2 for purely selfish reasons - that it is effectively the Coventry Rail Bypass, but I can certainly understand the wider case for it.

HS1 was delivered within budget, certainly. But if I set aside a budget as high as £5,000 for a couple of bar stools for my kitchen, I would also be within budget (unless they were gold plated).

Besides, Japan also has a dense and ''uneven distribution'' of population centres as you call them but has one of the best rail services in the world as well as being reasonably priced. So that rather flattens your flawed argument about density. The Japanese were operating a superb rail service even before they introduced high speed rail.

Strange that you completely avoid the reasons for extortionate fare pricing – can you tell me in one sentence why they are the most expensive in the world without any excuses like density or other such like bollocks?

As far as Coventry is concerned why hasn't your pathetically inept council even approached the Ministry of Transport and pitched for a HS2 branch to Coventy?
That would merely be about a 10 mile stretch from the Stoneleigh area and then running along the eastern edge of the Memorial park with existing track.

Lastly, I do not take a blanket ''anthing British is rubbish” position. Apart from areas such as comedy, documentaries and rock/pop music we fail miserably in most areas. The Germans show us how big infrastructure projects should be tackled without ripping the taxpayer off and without charging extortionate fares.

[Sgt.Wilko]

Last August OXO began here a rather jaundiced attack on what was tantamount to the entire political / business / civil engineering / engineering classes in the UK. The attack really has very little to do with this forum and at the time I said that I did not with to give oxygen to the dystopian land that OXO inhabits where these entire groups of people collude in some form of conspiracy of fraud and incompetence.

Clearly OXO still holds these views strongly, and he is fully entitled to hold them. However his views are born seemingly of some dislike for the UK and the above classes of people, he feels that other countries do things so much better and seems in thrall to all things Germanic and Deutsche Bahn in particular.

I stated then that this is simply not the forum for such a debate, especially when OXO in his attempts to prove his world view appears as blind as a Middle Eastern or North African dictator. I will therefore merely suggest to anyone who wishes to read some counterpoints to his diatribe to refer back to last August’s exchanges.

Sadly it would appear that like a poor beleaguered BBC viewer we are about to be subjected to a series of repeats. I personally do not intend to waste any more of the forumer’s time in this matter nor my own in commenting. All I suggest fellow forumers is to understand the bias self evident in OXO’s posts and to just look at facts.

Please don’t hold up DB as a beacon of light in the world when they have 70% staff dissatisfaction, been involved in spying scandals against employees, Eur15billion in debt, run the S-bahn at a loss of Euro 300million a year, experience huge cost overruns on the Stuttgart 21 project…oh you get the picture and don’t even ask about their supposed punctuality and the reliability of Siemens trains.

[hoody]

What has gravy got to do with anything?