Birmingham Grand Central station & High Speed 2

[Typhoon2000]

what i don't get is why they haven't allowed for the current infrastructure to improve before considering HS2. The Chiltern line has massive scope for improvement; electrification is one of them - gauge loadings on these are lighter and they accelerate quicker.. Especially sprinter types. Upping the line speeds further still by removing unnecessary bends such as the waste plant at the London end. I think that you could possible shave a good 15mins extra of the Evergreen 3 times. And why on earth in-cab signalling hasn't been used on the WCML along with track improvement to up the speed to 140 is beyond me, given the cost of HS2.

[i_like_concrete]

What's not to get? Britain's attitude to railways has been totally fucked up for the past 40 years.

The only reason we're getting a new high speed line is because the British political classes feel utterly embarrassed that countries like France, Germany, Spain and even Belgium have more advanced and faster railway networks than we do.

[feltip]

Embarassment

if we were embarassed by what other countries have in advancements then railways would be the least of our worries in upgrading / redeveloping / investing other things.

it's not embarassment driving this.

[feltip]

another post article

High Speed Rail plans to be published in March
Dec 14 2009 by Jonathan Walker, Birmingham Post

Detailed plans for a new high speed rail line linking London and Birmingham will be published in March, the Government has pledged.

But Conservatives accused Labour of delaying a decision until after the next election - following rumours that a poll could be held on March 25.

Transport Secretary Lord Adonis confirmed that a report giving details of the new line would not be published immediately, even though it is due to be completed before Christmas.

An inquiry set up by the Government will make detailed recommendations about the route a new line should take, but it will not be published until it has received “detailed scrutiny” from Ministers.

This is partly because the findings could potentially have a dramatic effect on property prices, according to the Government. Legal advisors in the Department for Transport have warned Lord Adonis that it should only be published once Ministers are able to say whether they accept its findings or not.

But it could delay publication until after a general election - after Westminster was awash with rumours last week that Gordon Brown planned to go to the country at the end of March.

Ministers will be barred from making announcements in the weeks leading up to the election.

Theresa Villiers, the Conservative Shadow Transport Secretary, said: “Labour have been struggling to keep up on high speed rail since 2008, when the Conservatives made their time-tabled and costed commitment to deliver a line connecting London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds with continental Europe through the Channel Tunnel.

“Now Lord Adonis has admitted that his aspirations for a line to the West Midlands won’t even be announced until Spring next year – potentially after the date for a March election.

“Labour are dragging their feet on High Speed rail. Only a Conservative Government can guarantee to bring high speed rail to the north.”

Although the Government originally committed itself only to building a line between London and Birmingham - saying it would then consider extending it further - it has recently stressed its desire to build a full national network.

Lord Adonis said: “The potential for high speed rail to regenerate and reinvigorate is now a reality for people in Kent, but the size of Britain’s high speed network lags behind that of many of our European neighbours and doesn’t connect any of our major cities.

“This month I expect to receive a report which has the potential change all that. This will require careful study and scrutiny - which will begin with immediate effect - before we can announce how we plan to take high speed rail forward in the Spring.”

The report will be presented to Lord Adonis by High Speed Two, a company set up by the Government specifically to look at options for high speed rail.

It will present a selection of different options for Ministers to consider, although it will also include guidance on which it considers most appropriate.

The report is likely to make a clear recommendation on whether services should run directly to Birmingham International Airport, and whether Birmingham City Centre needs a new station to cater for high speed trains.

Although Birmingham’s business community and the city council are firmly behind high speed rail, West Coast Main Line operators Virgin Trains told a recent Commons inquiry that there was little advantage in running services between London and Birmingham because journey times of less than an hour were possible on existing tracks.

High speed trains made sense over longer distances, such as between London and Scotland, Virgin said.

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/w...5233-25388742/

[Typhoon2000]

Exactly my point - If HS2 is to be taken seriously then they need to be looking at taking the line straight up to Scotland passing by the areas that really need it the most. They still haven't fully realised the potential of the Chiltern Line which, because of the lack of electrification, is still reliant on DMU rolling stock - thats DMU, not DEMU stock, either which way is less reliable than EMU rolling stock, heavier than EMU rolling stock and, if cleverly packaged, gives potential for more seating than DMU stock. Also faster times mean more trains can be added per day. - the added bonus will also be that train local to the area can could also run EMU rolling stock, and any regenerative braking power can be chucked back into the next train on that section of the juice wire or if there are no other trains, back to the national grid.

In-cab signalling based on TVM430 equipment has more than proved its reliability in France, HS1 and Belgium at much higher speeds than the 140mph that the Pendolino trains can run at.. and look at the (in many cases) unnecessary bends beyond the Trent Valley line - Huge cornering embankments which could be removed and replaced with straightened lines on box section bridging (smaller foot print on the ground) which could also open up space for land to be used again by landowners.

I am certainly NOT anti-HS2 but I think that the relevant authorities need to look at other options to get the most out of the lines they have. The problem we have at the moment is not getting from place to place quicker but the ability to increase capacity on the infrastructure we have at our use in Birmingham and there are certainly still ways in which this can be realised.

[NeilM]

Nothing new, but looks like it will be submitted in the coming week.

High-speed rail plans to be submitted to government

The line would be the UK's second high-speed train link

A major new station in the heart of London will be part of plans for a north-south high-speed rail line to be submitted to the government this week.

The first stage of the 250mph new line - from London to the West Midlands - could open by 2025.

The station would cater for up to 18 trains and 20,000 passengers an hour.

The proposal is in a report by the High Speed Two (HS2) company which has been set up by ministers to identify a viable route for the new line.

HS2 will put forward options for possible connections to Heathrow Airport and to the Channel Tunnel rail link, known as High Speed One (HS1).

rail plan
Birmingham: 45mins, down from 1h 22mins
Liverpool: 1hr 23mins, down from 2hrs 8mins
Manchester: 1hr 6mins, down from 2hrs 7mins
Edinburgh: 2hrs 9mins, down from 4hrs 23mins
Glasgow: 2hrs 16mins, down from 4hrs 10 mins
Source: Network Rail

The company says it has looked at 35 potential sites for a new station in London, but has plumped for one right in the heart of the capital.

There will be detailed proposals for the route of the line between London and the West Midlands - accurate to within 18 inches - and more general plans for its extension beyond that to Scotland.

A range of costs will be included for construction of the line which could start by 2017.

HS2 chief executive Alison Munro said it was asked to look at linking the line with the cross-London Crossrail project, the Great Western main line and Heathrow.

"The report will set out a case for various options including a possible link with HS1," she said.

"The proposals will include running trains from the HS2 on to the West Coast Main Line.

"This will not be a transport project in isolation. The final report will look at how the line will help housing and regional economic development. There will be significant levels of detail."

If the government decides to go ahead with high-speed rail it will publish a White Paper by next April.

The document would set out details such as route proposals, timescales and associated financial, economic and environmental assessments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8432051.stm

[giocoliere]

according to the previous BBC article in September then, the journey time from London to Birmingham is ALREADY getting shorter- from 46 minutes to 45

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8245758.stm

[Erebus555]

From today's Post.

High Speed Rail plans set to be submitted to Government
Dec 30 2009 by Alun Thorne, Birmingham Post

Plans for a multibillion-pound north-south rail line with 250mph trains will be presented to the Government either today or tomorrow.

Contained in a report from a company set up by the Government, the plans will include a detailed route - exact to within 18 inches - of a brand-new line from central London to the West Midlands.

Operating from a huge, new station in central London, the 400-metre-long trains would carry 1,100 passengers in a project which could cost as much as £60 billion.

The station would be big enough to handle 14, and eventually 18 trains an hour, with 20,000 passengers travelling in and out every 60 minutes.

The report, from the High Speed Two (HS2) company, will also present options for a high-speed line, or lines, north of Birmingham up to Scotland.

If accepted by the Government, the first part of the line - from London to the West Midlands - could be up and running by 2025, with work starting on it in 2017.

Running to around 200 pages but with thousands of pages of appendices, the report will not be published until spring 2010.

If the Government decides to pursue proposals for high-speed rail, it will publish a White Paper by the end of March 2010.

HS2 was established to identify a buildable route, with station options, for a high-speed train service from London to the West Midlands.

HS2 will present options for possible connections to Heathrow airport and to the Channel Tunnel rail link, now known as High Speed 1 (HS1).

The HS2 team looked at 35 possible sites in London for the high-speed terminus and have settled for a site right in the centre of the capital.

Ministers will be presented with a minutely-detailed route for the line as far north as the West Midlands.

This will be a new line which will hug the contours of the land, with noise and visual impact being reduced as much as possible.

However, the line is almost certainly set to go through the Chiltern Hills in Buckinghamshire - a beauty area where there is likely to be much opposition to the project.

HS2, which sees the high-speed trains as “aeroplanes on wheels”, will also present a range of costs for the line. The company will be less specific about the route and costs of extending the line beyond the West Midlands.

The London to West Midlands route will contain some tunnels - something which always adds considerably to the cost of a road or rail project.

HS2 chief executive Alison Munro said: “We were asked to look at linking with (the cross-London rail scheme) Crossrail, the Great Western main line and with Heathrow.

“The report will set out a case for various options including a possible link with HS1. The proposals will include running trains from the HS2 on to the West Coast Main Line.

“This will not be a transport project in isolation. The final report will look at how the line will help housing and regional economic development. There will be significant levels of detail.”

The HS2 team realises that there will be much demand from each region to be included on the high-speed route.

But Ms Munro said: “You don’t want to stop your high-speed trains at numerous stations along the way.”

HS2 will present the facts in an impartial way. HS2 chief engineer Andrew McNaughton said: “We are not here to promote high-speed rail. We are not cheer leaders. We are evaluators.”

The Government’s White Paper - should there be one - will set out detailed plans for new high-speed rail lines and services, including route proposals, timescales and associated financial, economic and environmental assessments.

This would be followed by a full public consultation, starting next autumn, giving all interested parties an opportunity to comment before the proposals are finalised.

http://www.birminghampost.net/birmin...5233-25494604/

[ROYAL BLUE]

BBC News 24 used a charming picture of the old bull ring in there report

[rob_right]

Originally Posted by ROYAL BLUE

BBC News 24 used a charming picture of the old bull ring in there report

Only 12 years out of date since the old one was standing! BBC are shocking these days for poor quality journalism!

[feltip]

From The Times
December 30, 2009

Britain in line for Europe's fastest railway

A blueprint for the fastest railway in Europe will be handed to the Government today for approval.

Ministers hope to decide on a detailed route for a high-speed link between London and the West Midlands by March, so that voters can make a decision at the general election, The Times has learnt.

Construction would begin in 2017, with the first trains running by 2025 if the project, which would cost tens of billions of pounds, wins approval.

“In terms of new policy, high-speed rail is my top priority over the next three months,” Lord Adonis, the Transport Secretary, told The Times.

He hopes to win cross-party approval for the high-speed line to the Midlands. on which trains will travel at up to 200mph. The Government aims to publish a White Paper by the end of March, setting out a detailed route for the first phase of construction and a broad outline of a network running north of Birmingham to Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle and on to Scotland. Once complete, journey times between London and Edinburgh would be cut to 2 hours 40 minutes.

The three main political parties are, in theory, committed to high-speed rail. Consensus on a specific route may be more difficult once the impact on marginal seats in the West Midlands is taken into consideration. Party political division may also emerge over how the network should connect to Heathrow and the Crossrail project and over the shape of the high-speed railway north of Birmingham.

Today Lord Adonis will receive a 1,000-page report by High Speed Two (HS2), a company set up in January to consider the case for high-speed rail travel. It sets out a favoured route to the West Midlands, drawn to within 5m in urban areas and 25m in open country. The report will also present three alternative schemes for a wider high-speed network. Similar routes were proposed last autumn by the Conservative Party, which sees high-speed rail as an alternative to airport expansion in the South.

Railway insiders say that HS2 has identified a station in North London that could be expanded to accommodate a huge increase in passengers. The railway will be designed to carry 18 trains, each 400m long and carrying 1,100 people, every hour. Euston and St Pancras are thought to offer the best potential for major growth.
...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6970975.ece

[feltip]

There's also an article for the January Rail Professional by Peter Plisner albeit published before the submission of the report but worth a read as a precursor to more information we might gleam.

http://www.railpro.co.uk/issues/pdfs...s-analysis.pdf

[Telfordboy]

Thanks for the info Feltip. I must say I'm getting quite excited about HS2, I think I may have been a train spotter in a previous life.
I saw a report on the BBC the other day about China's new high speed network and the launch of the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed train which has an average speed of 194 mph and a top speed of 217 mph It sent me all a quiver. It would be amazing if we ended up with the fastest in the world (achievable?) after all these years of inaction regarding HSR.

[feltip]

Talking of China, there was this news article.

Britain plans Europe's fastest rail service

www.chinaview.cn 2009-12-31 18:15:18

by Peter Barker

LONDON, Dec. 31 (Xinhua) -- The British government has received plans for a high-speed railway linking London with Britain's second largest city Birmingham in the West Midlands which, if built, would be the fastest in Europe.

High Speed Two (HS2) -- the company set up to advise the government on the development of high-speed rail services between London and Scotland -- delivered the report to the Department of Transport.

HS2 was asked by the government to first look at where existing capacity is under most pressure, between London and the West Midlands.

The report presents a detailed route, accurate to within five meters, for the first stage of the north-south high-speed line, dubbed HS2, from London to the West Midlands, as well as options for extending high-speed services to the North West, the East Midlands, Yorkshire, the North East and across the border into Scotland.

If the government decided to pursue proposals for high-speed rail, it would publish a white paper by the end of March 2010, said the Department of Transport in a statement.

The white paper will set out detailed plans for new high-speed rail lines and services, including route proposals, timescales and associated financial, economic, and environmental assessments. This would be followed by a public consultation, starting in autumn 2010, before the proposals are finalized.

There is a general election due before May 2010, and the scheme could yet fall foul of cost-cutting from whichever party wins. If the line goes ahead, construction could start in 2017 with trains running by 2025.

The railway will be designed to carry 18 trains, each 400 meters long and carrying 1,100 people, every hour. The existing terminals of Euston and St Pancras in north central London are thought to be the likely candidates for the capital's station.

The Secretary of State for Transport, Lord Andrew Adonis, said in a statement: "This is an important report which will shape the future of high-speed rail in this country."

"High-speed rail has real potential to regenerate and reinvigorate. Our high-speed network lags behind that of many of our European neighbors and doesn't connect any of our major cities,but this report could change that."

"I am excited about the possibilities that high-speed rail has to transform transport in this country for the better, providing environmental benefits, encouraging investment and boosting business and jobs."

"Scrutiny of the report will begin immediately and we will announce how we plan to take high-speed rail forward by the end of March - making 2010 the year of high speed rail in the UK."

HS2 said in a statement that HS2 would be a high-capacity railway, designed to standard European high-speed specifications, and make use of technology successfully developed in countries such as France and Germany. These specifications are different to those currently used on almost all railways in Great Britain. The EU specifications aim to ensure that new systems are compatible and use common standards.

HS2 is designed to take advantage of increased rail speeds in the past 40 years and of likely increases in the future.

High-speed trains were capable of 270 km per hour in 1985 and are now able to run up to 350 km/h. HS2 will be designed to run at speeds up to 400 km/h.

HS2 said on its website: "While 400 km/h passenger trains do not currently exist, HS2 is designing a track that will be capable of carrying trains up to this speed in the future."

"It is highly unlikely that a high-speed train would be required to exceed this speed in the UK, even if the technology existed. This is mainly due to the fact that the overall time saved at speeds beyond 400 km/h would be so small that it would not justify the additional energy used and environmental impacts of going faster."

There is currently only one high-speed line in Great Britain - HS1, which links London and the Channel Tunnel and is 114 km long.

According to Lord Adonis, there are 5,794 km of high-speed lines in Europe with 3,218 km under construction.

Britain was the country which invented steam-driven passenger rail travel, with the first service being between Liverpool and Manchester in 1830, and steam trains were removed from service in 1968.

Research into gas turbine driven high-speed trains capable of running on the current rail infrastructure began about that time and produced a successful prototype.

However, the rising cost of oil in the 1970s made gas turbine engines uneconomic and British Railways opted for electric traction. It also chose to use existing infrastructure, which meant that tilting trains were necessary to use the tight curves on some lines.

By the early 1980s, tilting high-speed trains were in service, but they were quickly withdrawn for technical problems and criticism from passengers.

For these reasons, and for safety reasons, the top speed for trains in Great Britain, outside HS1, is currently about 200 km/h and can only be boosted through new infrastructure.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_12736130.htm

[Kettledrum]

Originally Posted by Typhoon2000

what i don't get is why they haven't allowed for the current infrastructure to improve before considering HS2. The Chiltern line has massive scope for improvement; electrification is one of them - gauge loadings on these are lighter and they accelerate quicker.. Especially sprinter types. Upping the line speeds further still by removing unnecessary bends such as the waste plant at the London end. I think that you could possible shave a good 15mins extra of the Evergreen 3 times. And why on earth in-cab signalling hasn't been used on the WCML along with track improvement to up the speed to 140 is beyond me, given the cost of HS2.

You're right that there is loads of scope to improve the existing infrastructure, such as Chiltern route electrification and line speed improvements, and also freeing up capacity at Birmingham New Street by building the Camp Hill Chords, or a Birmingham Grand Central Station.

However, HS2 is much more than that.

- It will enable faster trains from WCML destinations further North that would not significantly benefit from the improvements you have suggested.
- It will enable more trains from Milton Keynes and the South Midlands to London, which will meet the tranport needs associated with new housing developments.
- It should open up a faster route to London from Sheffield and the East Midlands which will also use part of the new High Speed 2 route.

Besides, it will take so long to build that much of the rail infrastructure will already be running at full capacity, even with the improvements you have suggested.

[matti01]

There was an article about HS2 in today's Guardian. They're suggesting that trains will begin at Euston, continue to a Crossrail/Heathrow interchange at Old Oak Common in west London, then to a station near BHX (from where northbound trains will continue along the existing WCML) before reaching a new city centre station. About 50 mins for the whole journey

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/fe...ail-birmingham

Edit: just noticed it had already been posted on the BHX thread

[Nessyjord]

For 'tens of billions of pounds,' would you rather a state of the art metro system for all of the Uk's large cities or a high speed rail link between only London and Birmingham?

[Telfordboy]

State of the art metro. Our trains aren't really that bad but our intra-urban transport is really awful.

[majortim]

High-speed. Fast links to London and Europe, plus an expanded airport, should bring much needed international investment into Birmingham in a way the Metro never could.

[sefton66]

as major tim said high speed will bring international investment into birmingham which in itself may lead to the development of a metro system