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Old May 31st, 2005, 05:04 PM   #101
uptownliving
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I can't wait to see A350 in USAirways colors.
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Old May 31st, 2005, 06:20 PM   #102
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Quote:
Boeing would be releasing the 747/500
Boeing would maybe releasing the 747 advanced at paris airshow. witch in your way called the 747-500. witch has:

- New engines (the General Electric GEnx) the same as the 787 but than smaller diameter fan.
- greater wings.
- New cockpit
- greater range (8500 NM)
- capability to reach a passenger high of 448 passengers in 3 or 4 classes. what means, 500 pas. in 2 classes.
- Longer body (than the 747 would be the longest airplane in the world).

and much more....

only 1 difference bitween the 747adv and a380 is the max passengers.
by the 747adv: 448 pass.
by the a380: 490-555 pass.

and than is the 747adv 18 percent cheaper than the a380.
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Old May 31st, 2005, 06:25 PM   #103
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Quote:
by the a380: 490-555 pass.
that's i've heard from some guys from a 'professional' aviation forum. and this is the true.

Quote:
and than is the 747adv 18 percent cheaper than the a380.
see this from www.airliners.net:

Quote:
Let's say the incremental revenue is
first class revenue is -7,000 USD
biz class revenue is 20,000 USD
economy class is 75,000 USD
which means about an extra ~88,000 USD per flight.

But the fuel alone is an additional 20,000 gallons, which at around 3 USD/gal is about 60,000 USD. It is more complicated than this (e.g. labour, depreciation, etc) but if that is really how they are outfitting the seating, I wonder good the economics will be.

I'm not A380 bashing. My point is that the seat arrangements are probably different than the above.
what do you think of this, guys?
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Old June 1st, 2005, 01:44 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
by the 747adv: 448 pass.
by the a380: 490-555 pass.
Let's show this as it really is, and not from a biased point of view:

B747adv: 448 pax
A380: 555 pax

or, if you like:

B747adv: 395-448 pax
A380: 490-555 pax

As for the rest, we will see it when/if the B747adv is lauched.
For now, nobody even knows the specifications... It's all speculation.

PS: Airliners.net is the website with the highest percentage of airbus bashers in the world.
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Old June 1st, 2005, 05:54 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
so i keep it for myself that i hate airbus.
Yeah... I may be a bit Airbus biased, because of the A380 which is truly awesome, and how they've been the "underdog" for so many years and it's wonderful to see them take it to Boeing, but overall, I enjoy having [at least] two major commercial aircraft manufacturers, because competition spurs better ideas and products from both.
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Old June 1st, 2005, 05:56 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptownliving
I can't wait to see A350 in USAirways colors.
... and I can't wait to just plain SEE AN A350!

I'm hoping we'll get some nice renderings out of the Paris Airshow if Airbus "officially" launches the programme as they said they would.
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Old June 1st, 2005, 08:08 PM   #107
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Quote:
For now, nobody even knows the specifications... It's all speculation.
follow this link:
PUSH HERE
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Old June 1st, 2005, 08:10 PM   #108
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Quote:
we will see it when/if the B747adv
we'll see it at paris air show!!!
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Old June 1st, 2005, 08:30 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
follow this link:
PUSH HERE
That's speculative has i've said.
Nothing is for sure yet. Boeing just gave some hints.
It may even not be lauched at all!
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 05:49 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephasto
It may even not be lauched at all!
If there's even a single shred of intelligence at Boeing, they won't launch a 747 Advanced. Case-in-point: The initial A350 plan, to have it just be an A330 derivative. When put up against the all-new 787, Airbus couldn't get any sales. NOW that they've supposidly designed an all-new aircraft, they expect to put up triple-digit launch orders in Paris.

There's no market for a plane between the 500+ seat A380 and the 380 to 419 seat A340-600. And personally, I think an "Advanced" would tarnish the proud tradition of the 747, from being the queen of the skies and wonder of engineering, turned thoughtless copy to compete with an even larger plane.
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:11 AM   #111
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Well, here's some "official" news on one particular A350 order:

Emirates, Qatar Airways To Place Orders For Up To 120 Aircraft

Emirates News Agency (WAM) - 01/06/2005



Emirates and Qatar Airways the two fast-growing Gulf-based carriers are set to announce a number of firm orders that could add up to somewhere between 100 to 120 aircraft, aviation officials said.

The announcement will be made at the forthcoming Paris Air Show to be held from June 13 to 19, according to a Gulf News report from Tokyo.

While Emirates is set to order a combination of A350s and Boeing's ultra-long range B777-200LRs, Qatar Airways is set to order as many as 50 to 60 B787s.

Following Emirates' recent revelation, Qatar Airways is also set to sign a major firm order in Paris. Akbar Al Baker, Qatar Airways' chief executive said on Monday, "Yes, we will make a major announcement at the Paris Air Show. I am not at liberty to reveal anything further, but it is going to be big." This would be the biggest shift for all-Airbus fleet operator Qatar Airways. Fifty B787s would cost the airline more than $6.25 billion at list price.

More than 300 officials representing 265 airlines and companies gathered in Tokyo to assess the health of the global aviation industry at the 61st annual general meeting of IATA. Airbus and Boeing officials were seen making last-minute efforts on possible orders. An aviation official close to these negotiations told Gulf News that Boeing's 787 Dreamliner has lost out against its new rival as Emirates has decided on Airbus A350.

"Emirates has decided on A350, not the B787," he said.

Airline officials kept mum on the details of the announcement.

They hinted that it could split its firm orders and keep some reserved for Dubai Airshow.

"We might make an announcement at the Paris Air Show, we might also make another announcement at Dubai Airshow later this year," said Tim Clark, president of Emirates airline, without giving any more details. "We are talking to both the manufacturers on our future requirements."
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:15 AM   #112
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And here's a newer article saying Qatar Airways is choosing the A350 instead:

Airbus Set To Announce 100 Orders For A350

AFX News Ltd. - Forbes.com
06.01.2005, 08:58 PM


PARIS (AFX)
- Airbus Industrie is poised to announce around 100 orders for its new A350 plane - its direct competitor to the Boeing 787 - at the Paris air show in mid-June, La Tribune newspaper said in its Thursday edition.

The French economic daily said that among the companies which were placing orders for the A350 were Middle Eastern carriers, in particular Qatar Airways, which is expected to order around 60 planes.

Airbus is hoping to sign some 200 firm orders by the end of the year for its A350 plane, which is a more advanced version of its A330, but with modifications to improve range.

Boeing has so far registered 261 orders for its 787, which is to be in service in 2008. Airbus currently only has 10 firm orders for the A350, which is expected to be in service by 2010.

Earlier on Wednesday Airbus said it was up to six months behind schedule in delivering its new superjumbo A380 aircraft to airlines due to production problems, a delay that could entail financial penalties.
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 05:15 PM   #113
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Quote:
There's no market for a plane between the 500+ seat A380 and the 380 to 419 seat A340-600.
there is a market.
as an airliner now wants a plane of the size bitween 400 and 500 they can only choose for a very expensive airbus. then they can choose for a efficient, very cheap, fast (2% faster than the a380 and a340), and greater range airplane. so there is a market and i know that. as you know me, you know that it's true.
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 09:05 PM   #114
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I also think that there's a market.
It's a big gap between the 360-380 seats of the 346/773 and the 555 seats of the 380.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
(2% faster than the a380 and a340)
That's not true... and above all, quite irrelevant.

A340-200/300 speed - 0.82 mach
A340-500/600 speed - 0.83 mach
B777 speed - 0.84 mach
A380 speed - 0.85 mach
B747-400 speed -0.855 mach
B747-Adv - 0.86 mach

0.86/0.85 = 1.0117 ~ 1% faster. That's irrelevant, believe me.

Faster than a 340-200/300, yes, for sure! Than a 380... although slightly faster, that 1% is irrelevant.
A 16 hours (super long haul) trip on an A380 would take 15h50min on the B747adv. Lol! That's what i call irrelevant. (I remind you planes don't stick to the schedule on long flights like those (can be even 2 hours earlier, or lome time delayed, depending on the winds), so those 10 minutes are completely irrelevant).
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 04:14 AM   #115
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so is Qatar Airways ordering 350 or 787?? one of your article say 787 and the last one say 350.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 06:01 AM   #116
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Airbus Upgrades A350-Jet Proposal To Compete With Boeing's 787

By Andrea Rothman


June 2 (Bloomberg)
-- Airbus SAS, the world's largest commercial planemaker, said it's upgrading the proposed A350 to make the aircraft more competitive with Boeing Co.'s 787, which has won orders from long-time Airbus customers.

The Toulouse, France-based company is now offering what amounts to a new plane, instead of a derivative of the older A330, with new engines, wings from composite materials for the first time and the overall content 60 percent advanced materials, said Chief Commercial Officer John Leahy yesterday in an interview.

Boeing, based in Chicago, has won every contest between the 787 and A350 since January, snagging buyers including traditional Airbus customers Northwest Airlines Corp. and ACE Aviation Holdings Inc.'s Air Canada. Boeing has 261 orders and commitment from 21 customers for the 787, while Airbus has one order for 10 A350s.. The planemakers see demand for as many as 3,500 planes worth $400 billion in the 250- to 300-seat category over 20 years.

"This is the fourth attempt by Airbus at a competitive response to the 787,'' said Richard Aboulafia, vice president at the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Virginia-based consulting company. "The fourth time could be the charm, but it's tough because Boeing's 787 is all-new and extremely ambitious technologically.''

Airbus got clearance from its parent European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. in December to market a 250-seat plane based largely on the existing A330-200, with development costs of 4 billion ($4.9 billion), up from an initial estimate of 2 billion euros. The modified proposal has the same estimated development costs and Airbus is seeking loans from the U.K., France, Germany and Spain for a third of the expense.

WTO Dispute

The U.S. and European Union are suing each other at the World Trade Organization over subsidies to Airbus and Boeing in the biggest clash in the WTO's 10-year history. Boeing lost its lead as the world's top seller of commercial jets to Airbus two years ago.

Airbus is also grappling with problems in getting its 555-seat A380 into service on time. Yesterday Airbus said initial deliveries of the plane will be delayed as much as half a year, opening the way for customers including Singapore Airlines Ltd. to demand compensation.

Airbus's first answer to the 787, which Boeing proposed to airlines in December 2003, was to adapt the A330-200 to use the same efficient new engines designed for the 787. By mid-2004, Airbus was promising new systems and more composites. By December, the plane included new engines, systems and 35 percent new materials.

Newest A350

The fourth incarnation brings the promise of 60 percent advanced materials, 37 percent of which composites and 23 percent new aluminum lithium alloys. The rear fuselage as well and wing would be made from composites, and new cabin comforts include bigger windows and special interior lighting to match Boeing developments.

The A350 is no longer a derivative, said Leahy. It's a new jet with 90 percent new manufacturer parts, though the fuselage diameter is unchanged. He expects EADS to approve building the plane by the middle of June.

"I'd been saying I expected orders for 100 at the Paris Air Show,'' said Leahy. "Now I think that will be higher, based on discussions I've had with airlines.'' Leahy met with airline executives May 30 and 31 in Tokyo at the meeting of the International Air Transport Association.

Airbus would deliver the A350-8 by 2010 and the bigger, A350-9 six months later. Boeing's 787-8 enters service in 2008.

Boeing's 787-8 is designed to offer a 30 percent improvement in operating economics over the 767 it replaces, thanks to new engines from General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce Plc and to extensive use of lighter-weight composite materials.

Plane Comparisons

Boeing doesn't offer comparisons between its 787 and Airbus's A350, said Boeing spokeswoman Yvonne Leach, because the design hasn't been made final and it hasn't committed to production. "We compare the 787 to the Airbus A330-200,'' she said.

Emirates, the biggest Arab Airline, and Qatar, the state airline of the Persian Gulf country, are among potential customers for the A350, Airbus says, as are operating lessors International Lease Finance Corp. and General Electric Capital Aviation Services.

Emirates, which is buying 45 of Airbus's A380s, may purchase as many as 60 A350s or 787s, Emirates President Tim Clark said May 17. Qatar Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker said in April he will order as many as 60 planes by mid-June.

Airbus's A350-9 version would seat 259 passengers. The A350- 800 model would seat 253 in three classes, flying 8,560 nautical miles. That compares with 245 seats and range of 6,670 nautical miles in its existing A330-200.

Airbus said the higher seat count, which it got by moving back the rear bulkhead and crew rest area further back, will give the A350 17 percent better fuel efficiency per seat than its own A330- 200 and 4 percent better efficiency per seat than the 787-8 model, which seats 223.

Airbus's bigger A350-900 model would compete with Boeing's 787- 9, with 259 seats flying 8,300 nautical miles, and Boeing's 777- 200ER, which carries 301 passengers 7,700 nautical miles, as well as replacement plane for DC10s, MD11s and Airbus's own A340-300 models, Leahy said.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 06:04 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent
so is Qatar Airways ordering 350 or 787?? one of your article say 787 and the last one say 350.
I believe the latter of those two articles I posted was more recent, so I took that as QA being an A350 buyer. But both use language that sounds unsure, so I guess what I'm saying is I don't have a clue!
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 06:05 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
...so there is a market and i know that. as you know me, you know that it's true.
... Oh we know you alright. We know you VERY WELL!
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 11:34 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm
[B][SIZE=4]<snip> Qatar Airways is set to order as many as 50 to 60 B787s.
<snip>

Go 787!!!!!!! I like to read this great news.
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Old June 4th, 2005, 01:41 AM   #120
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Emirates key to Airbus's 'pole position'
The European aircraft maker hopes the Dubai airline will choose the A350 over rival Boeing's 787
By KEVIN DONE
03 June 2005
Financial Times

Noel Forgeard, Airbus chief executive, will visit Dubai this weekend for talks with Emirates, the fast-growing Middle East airline and one of the European aircraft maker's key customers worldwide.

He will have a crowded agenda. He must seek to explain embarrassing delays in the delivery schedule for the A380 superjumbo while seeking to secure vital launch orders for the group's planned new long-range, mid-market aircraft, the A350.

Mr Forgeard is fighting for his reputation and record at Airbus. During the past seven years he has led the European aircraft maker to a position of narrow supremacy over its US rival Boeing but for months now he has been embroiled in a damaging internal struggle for management control at the Airbus parent company, EADS.

For weeks he has been due to be confirmed by the EADS board as joint chief executive, moving up from Airbus, but last night the group's Franco-German shareholders were still struggling to reach agreement on the new management structure.

Emirates is by far the biggest customer for the A380, accounting for close to a third of the order book for the world's biggest passenger jet.

The airline is basing much of its dramatic planned growth in the next decade on the 555-seat superjumbo, but Airbus was forced to admit this week that initial deliveries were going to be delayed by up to six months.

At the same time Airbus is desperately seeking the crucial initial orders for the A350, so that it can announce the industrial launch for the project, ideally at the Paris Airshow in two weeks' time.

The A350 is being developed in haste to compete with Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, which is rapidly building an impressive order backlog and looks set to win back market leadership for Boeing this year, measured by new orders, for the first time since 2000.

Airbus has outsold Boeing in five of the past six years and has delivered more aircraft in each of the past two years, but there is a growing sense in the civil aerospace industry that the US group is finally staging a comeback, led by the 787.

John Leahy, Airbus chief commercial officer and the group's "super-salesman" who has driven the group's sales success for more than a decade, has long been hopeful that the breakthrough A350 orders would be ready to announce in Paris. Yesterday he told the Bloomberg news agency: "I'd been saying I expected orders for 100 (A350s) at the Paris Airshow. Now I think that will be higher based on discussions I've had with airlines."

An Airbus spokesman yesterday confirmed the target for more than 100 A350 orders at the airshow.

If the goal is to be met Emirates will again be crucial in shaping the European aircraft maker's fortunes.

It is in negotiation for an order of about 50 medium-capacity, long-range aircraft and has been pitting the A350 against two derivatives of the Boeing 777 as well as against the Dreamliner.

An executive close to the talks said yesterday that "the A350 is in pole position".

In addition to Emirates, Airbus is still hopeful of securing key launch orders for the A350 from Qatar Airways, another important fast-growing Middle East customer and also a buyer of the A380, as well as from the leading aircraft leasing companies ILFC and Gecas.

To date the only commitment made to the A350 has come from Spain's Air Europa for 10 aircraft.

Mr Forgeard will have to be at his persuasive best in Dubai. Several of the target airlines on the Airbus hit-list for the A350 have already opted for the Boeing 787, including Northwest Airlines of the US and Air Canada, and Airbus must register important wins soon, if the controversial project is to be launched.
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