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Old July 8th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #181
GENIUS LOCI
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Other pics of Porta Susa station in Turin

Quote:
Originally Posted by normy89 View Post
Questa è sempre l'uscita della metro

[IMG]http://i52.************/2vta07t.jpg[/IMG]

Uscita verso c.so Inghilterra
[IMG]http://i56.************/33e0ioo.jpg[/IMG]

Altro lato dell'uscita metro
[IMG]http://i53.************/345fq8o.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i54.************/2r4mlwg.jpg[/IMG]

...and the last one...
[IMG]http://i51.************/5oiekp.jpg[/IMG]

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Old August 9th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #182
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I've been to Italy a few times and travelled by trains. The network is pretty extensive but the main issue that I have seen is the age of the trains...





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Old August 9th, 2011, 08:00 PM   #183
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That's normal. From 1997 until 2009 or so in all stations of Milan S-Bahn tunnel (except Garibaldi) there were absolutely no working machines nor counters. Also in Brescia most if not all machines are not working today.
I find it hard to believe that no ticket machine were working for 12 years.

Last edited by LtBk; August 9th, 2011 at 08:08 PM.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 12:26 AM   #184
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It's inbelievable, but it's true.

I remember one day when I were in Milano Greco Pirelli (not in the S-Bahn tunnel, but on the line to Chiasso). I searched for the ticket machines, there were 2 or 3, al out of order. I then asked to the newsstand employee, as they often also sell tickets, but not this one. Finally I asked the train guard, who sold me a ticket without supplements, but advised me to ask for tickets the nearby bar-restaurant.

Anyway today there are working machines nearly everyehere, even if sometimes too few of them (another common problem, even if they work, they are sometimes too few compared to the passenger numbers).
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Old August 10th, 2011, 12:47 AM   #185
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Its really incredible how badly maintained the ticket machines are and how slow the ticket counters work. In fact, in 99% of the cases, news agents and bars are the better choice (at least if you want to use a regional train).
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Old August 10th, 2011, 04:41 AM   #186
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I'm not surprised given that Italy is among the most inefficient countries in Europe, but 12 years of broken ticket machines and ticket counters is going bit too far IMO.

Last edited by LtBk; August 11th, 2011 at 09:20 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 07:50 AM   #187
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I'm not surprised given that Italy is among the most inefficient countries in Europe, but 12 years of broken ticket machines and ticket counters is going bit too far IMO.
Trenitalia still has a long way to go compared to the rest of Europe, but things do sometimes run quite smoothly.
I travelled Ancona - Milano - Zürich -Bern last weekend, and all trains were on time, except on the Milano - Zürich part (but thanks to redundancy in the Swiss netwoprk we only arrived in Bern 2 minutes late). We had booked via the internet and so travelled "ticketless", which worked perfectly.

What Trenitalia needs is some help in getting a better, more efficient timetable. Half the gain the Bologna - Milano high speed line brings was lost again by long layovers in our case.
I also have the impression that the Italian Railway network is vastly overbuild. Italy seems to have a lot more infrastructure than needed for the level of traffic on many lines.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:10 AM   #188
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During the last years Lombardia region has redesigned most of its regional services with a symmetric timetable, and created (partially) a common tariff system. I have once made a round trip around Lombardia changing train several times and always finding short connections giving reasonable travel times. Sure, there are still bad points, but lines that once had no trains between 8 am and 11 am now have a 15 minuts cadenced service at least during peak hours.

Map: http://www.msrmilano.com/images/schema_rete_giu2011.jpg (one line = a train every 30 minutes, light colour = only on peak hours)

Future plans are for a 15 minutes services on line a part of S1 south, part of S5 north-west, part of S8, the central part of S9, and a 10 minutes service to Saronno S1/S3, plus other improvements.

However Lombardia is quite an exception, together with with Toscana and Trentino-Südtirol (and maybe Campania). The other regions are cutting services here and there randomly to "save" money and have no plans, running trains without coordination.

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I also have the impression that the Italian Railway network is vastly overbuild. Italy seems to have a lot more infrastructure than needed for the level of traffic on many lines.
Italy sadly is used to firstly build infrastructure, then thinking about if what it has done is useful or not, with few exceptions. Nobody in Europe would have built a 125 km, 7 billions € railway without knowing exactly how to use it, except Italy (which now runs over it around 22 trains a day).
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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #189
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To be fair, there are several countries in Europe that have far worse railway systems than Italy like Denmark and Romania. I believe Trenitalia will do a better job of running the railway network if it weren't for the corrupt government and general inefficiencies of Italian society.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 10:15 AM   #190
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europe will benefit greatly from the ongoing privatization of railways, just like with airlines
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Old August 11th, 2011, 04:02 PM   #191
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europe will benefit greatly from the ongoing privatization of railways, just like with airlines
The problem is, tnat railway much more about infrastructure, while airlines much more infrastructure-independent.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 04:13 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Italy sadly is used to firstly build infrastructure, then thinking about if what it has done is useful or not, with few exceptions. Nobody in Europe would have built a 125 km, 7 billions € railway without knowing exactly how to use it, except Italy (which now runs over it around 22 trains a day).
Considering how long(er) it takes to build infrastructure in Italy (or start building it first place), it makes sense to build first, use later.

All HSR sectors in Italy were once criticized, starting with the Roma-Firenze "diretissima", which began construction in the 1970s, well before the French started working on the Paris-Lyon line.

Maybe NTV will offer cheaper tickets on the Torino-Milano route, which could draw more ridership (and incentive it to put more services) on that line. But the Torino-Milano HSR will only realize its full potential when they build an western rail bypass around Milano, cutting travel times Torino-Bologna by 30 min (on top of other 14 minutes lost by stopping in Milano).

In any case, as from new, they could put some Torino-Bologna services that don't stop in Milano.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #193
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Well, I guess the loss of time for the trains going through Garibaldi instead of Centrale isn't that bad.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 05:08 AM   #194
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1-
Maybe NTV will offer cheaper tickets on the Torino-Milano route, which could draw more ridership (and incentive it to put more services) on that line. But the Torino-Milano HSR will only realize its full potential when they build an western rail bypass around Milano, cutting travel times Torino-Bologna by 30 min (on top of other 14 minutes lost by stopping in Milano).
2-
In any case, as from new, they could put some Torino-Bologna services that don't stop in Milano.
Probably NTV will form a cartel with Trenitalia..

That shouldn't require a great effort .....
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Old August 12th, 2011, 07:26 AM   #195
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Considering how long(er) it takes to build infrastructure in Italy (or start building it first place), it makes sense to build first, use later.
Given how expensive infrastructure is it makes sense to first think about what you really need.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 07:49 AM   #196
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Given how expensive infrastructure is it makes sense to first think about what you really need.
You are missing the point. Italian bureaucracy, particularly last-minute court guerrilla challenges require re-dos and changes, are much more common than in Germany, let alone France, and even more Spain.

Direct construction costs are not particularly high.
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Old August 29th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #197
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Artesia to be dismantled

Artesia, a joint-venture of SNCF and Trenitalia that operates trains from Paris to Venezia, Roma, Milano and other cities, will cease to exist in December 2011.

Night trains will be operated by Trenitalia and Veolia. Daytime trains, operated with TGVs, will be operated by SNCF. But there is a lingering problem: it is now compulsory for trains circulating in Italy main lines, high speed or not, to be SCMT-compatible, and SNCF was dragging its feet to install the proper equipment.

After Cisalpino, this is the second international joint-venture involving Trenitalia and foreign operator to be ended.
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Old August 29th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #198
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After Cisalpino, this is the second international joint-venture involving Trenitalia and foreign operator to be ended.
Trenitalia's project to turn Italy in to an Island is starting to bear fruit...
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Old August 31st, 2011, 07:17 PM   #199
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Old August 31st, 2011, 08:11 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Artesia, a joint-venture of SNCF and Trenitalia that operates trains from Paris to Venezia, Roma, Milano and other cities, will cease to exist in December 2011.
R.I.P. Artesia.
Quote:
Night trains will be operated by Trenitalia and Veolia. Daytime trains, operated with TGVs, will be operated by SNCF. But there is a lingering problem: it is now compulsory for trains circulating in Italy main lines, high speed or not, to be SCMT-compatible, and SNCF was dragging its feet to install the proper equipment.
Well, it's only reasonable that every train that runs on its own traction is equipped with the proper safety and communication systems.
Quote:
After Cisalpino, this is the second international joint-venture involving Trenitalia and foreign operator to be ended.
Why would they do that? Is Trenitalia planning to operate international trains themselves, or do they want to get rid of international trains? And why would they want that?
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