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Old September 1st, 2011, 10:15 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Why would they do that? Is Trenitalia planning to operate international trains themselves, or do they want to get rid of international trains? And why would they want that?
There had been disagreements about how to run the trains, how to invest in rolling stock, long-term, and how to price the services.

Long-term goal of Trenitalia is to have its trains operating under public contracts in a separate business division of its "commercial", profit-generating division.

RFI, in its turn, wants more trains running on its high-speed lines where trackage fees are second highest in Europe per km, after those of Infrabel (Belgium). Artesia, for instance, insisted in running its Paris-Milan daytime trains via Novara, on the old line, instead of using the new Torino-Milano high-speed tracks.

What Trenitalia did is to get rid of most regional international trains that interfere with internal public-service contracts with the regions. For instance, regional trains Genova-Nice (France) and most regional international services in the Brennero route. The philosophy is that subsidies should not be used for international trains whatsoever, which resulted, among other causes, in the cancellation of all regional services on the Fréjus tunnel between Bardonecchia and Modane (there are a handful of buses running there).
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Old September 1st, 2011, 10:19 AM   #202
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Your knowledge of the politics of European railways is pretty impressive, I must say. This is one of the most informative posts I've read from anyone.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 03:04 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
I also have the impression that the Italian Railway network is vastly overbuild. Italy seems to have a lot more infrastructure than needed for the level of traffic on many lines.
The network is vastly unused, not overbuilt.
Let consider the path Turin-Venice, via Piacenza-Cremona-Mantova.
Its a single track line, mostly in Diesel Traction.
In this condition is not possible to serve decently and quickly, with an IC service, the people that live in those cities; is not possible to have an alternative path between Turin and Venice for goods, for example.
And the results is that the Milan node is congested, to avoid this they was constrained to build the HSL for the path Turin-Venice, not yet finished.

Another example is the path Milan-Ventimiglia (France border), all the traffic must pass through Genoa node, that is congested as well.
There is an alternative path via Alessandria-Savona, single track line with Electric traction.

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Old September 2nd, 2011, 03:15 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
That's normal. From 1997 until 2009 or so in all stations of Milan S-Bahn tunnel (except Garibaldi) there were absolutely no working machines nor counters. Also in Brescia most if not all machines are not working today.
Italy is inefficient, italians are like Calimero, Italy and italians are unreliable, all that you want, but 12 years without working machines is bullshit.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 05:50 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
The network is vastly unused, not overbuilt.
Let consider the path Turin-Venice, via Piacenza-Cremona-Mantova.
Its a single track line, mostly in Diesel Traction.
In this condition is not possible to serve decently and quickly, with an IC service, the people that live in those cities; is not possible to have an alternative path between Turin and Venice for goods, for example.
And the results is that the Milan node is congested, to avoid this they was constrained to build the HSL for the path Turin-Venice, not yet finished.
The connecting railway around Milano has ten tracks in places, and plenty of fly overs to make lots of simultaneous conflict free paths possible. Yet when you look at the tracks you rarely see more than one train at a time... Milano as it currently stands could handle a lot more traffic.

A single track railway ought to be able to handle a fast passenger train every half hour in both directions, plus some locals. A few strategic passing loops would be sufficient. If Trenitalia ran trains at SBB densities they'd run 4 or 5 times as many...

Quote:
Another example is the path Milan-Ventimiglia (France border), all the traffic must pass through Genoa node, that is congested as well.
There is an alternative path via Alessandria-Savona, single track line with Electric traction.
There is plenty of capacity at Genoa too. There are two seperate lines coming in from the north, and separate routes for freight and passenger through the city.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 09:45 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
That's normal. From 1997 until 2009 or so in all stations of Milan S-Bahn tunnel (except Garibaldi) there were absolutely no working machines nor counters. Also in Brescia most if not all machines are not working today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Italy is inefficient, italians are like Calimero, Italy and italians are unreliable, all that you want, but 12 years without working machines is bullshit.
Can you prove that ticket machines have always worked correctly?

Because they weren't according to this website, owned and maintained by some traffic engineers working by Lombardia region (by the way, for recent improvements we have to thank them).

Quote:
Il passare del tempo e il cospicuo investimento fatto per le DAB che, come abbiamo appena visto, è ancora ben lontano da portare veri frutti, non dovrebbero però far dimenticare altri sprechi e altri investimenti infruttuosi. Nei primi anni di esercizio del Passante, tutte le stazioni furono dotate di emettitrici automatiche del tipo di quella verde, qui fotografata a Milano Villapizzone nel maggio 2005. Ebbene: queste emettitrici non sono mai entrate in servizio. Sono state infine rimosse al principio del 2006, per far posto alle DAB e, con ogni probabilità, sono state buttate via, ancora nuove.

Tra l'altro per vari anni, nelle stazioni del Passante, era impossibile acquistare biglietti di viaggio, per la totale mancanza di punti vendita: una situazione al limite dell'assurdo per un'infrastruttura importante come il Passante, aperta dopo vent'anni di lavori.

Solo nel 2004 sono arrivate le emettitrici Trenitalia di nuovo tipo (ETF 501): sostanzialmente ben funzionanti anche se limitate (ad esempio non accettano le carte di credito). In fotografia, comunque, anche l'ETF 501 mostra lo schermo rosso "fuori servizio", e di nuovo l'utente percepisce un disservizio doppio del reale (due emettitrici guaste, quando in realtà quella verde è come se non esistesse).
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Old September 7th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The connecting railway around Milano has ten tracks in places, and plenty of fly overs to make lots of simultaneous conflict free paths possible. Yet when you look at the tracks you rarely see more than one train at a time... Milano as it currently stands could handle a lot more traffic.
I'm not an Italian Railway Traffic Manager, thus I have no data to discuss whether rarely see more than one train at a time or not.
In any case this, in my point of view, proves that the railway network is unused, not overbuilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
A single track railway ought to be able to handle a fast passenger train every half hour in both directions, plus some locals.
Completely agree, and this proves again that the network is unused.
But a single track railway has a limited capacity and thus does not allow a heay traffic, therefore, the axle West-East Turin-Venice through Piacenza-Cremona-Mantova could not be used as an alternative path for freight and or passengers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
...If Trenitalia ran trains at SBB densities they'd run 4 or 5 times as many...
Probably yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...

There is plenty of capacity at Genoa too. There are two seperate lines coming in from the north, and separate routes for freight and passenger through the city.
Sorry, where did you see plenty of capacity at Genoa node?
The two separate lines coming from north are merged in one lines towards east and another one towards west, through the city, for passengers (commuter and long haul) and freight.

In order to improve the performance and to separate the traffic, there are some work in progress that will completed in 2015.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 10:18 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Can you prove that ticket machines have always worked correctly?

Because they weren't according to this website, owned and maintained by some traffic engineers working by Lombardia region (by the way, for recent improvements we have to thank them).
Can you prove that for 12 years there were not working ticket machines?
If you prove that I will present my apologise.

What you posted proves nothing, "vari anni" means "many years"; could mean 2-3 years or 25 years.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #209
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I cannot prove, however I assure you that I used regularly Dateo station from the end of 2007 to the end of 2009, and I have never found a working machine. On other stations where I used to go like Monza, Milano Greco Pirelli or Milano Rogoredo the machines where often out of use. But I have to say that today the situation has improved and machines in the Passante are working (even if sometimes, like Rogoredo or Porta Garibaldi, the machines are too few compared to the number of passengers), and the regional rail service has improved much since 2000.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
In any case this, in my point of view, proves that the railway network is unused, not overbuilt.
That's just semantics. That's like saying that it's me that's to small, not my pants that are to big...


Quote:
But a single track railway has a limited capacity and thus does not allow a heay traffic, therefore, the axle West-East Turin-Venice through Piacenza-Cremona-Mantova could not be used as an alternative path for freight and or passengers.
You'd be suprised what you can do with a single track railway. I know of one line in Switzerland that has trains every 10 minutes in both directions, that is still mostly single track...

Quote:
Sorry, where did you see plenty of capacity at Genoa node?
On a map of the railway network. (I have the Schweers and Wall railway atlas for Italy)

What I see is 2 tracks leading eas, 2 tracks leading west, 4 tracks leading north and a layout that should allow one to route freight and passenger trains through the area seperately.
Should be able to handle a few fast trains, a few locals and a few freights on each line, every hour, without any problem.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I cannot prove, however I assure you that I used regularly Dateo station from the end of 2007 to the end of 2009, ....
Ok.
I apologise in any case because I have been impolite with you.
Ciao!
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Old September 7th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #212
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Scuse accettate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You'd be surprised what you can do with a single track railway. I know of one line in Switzerland that has trains every 10 minutes in both directions, that is still mostly single track...
The Sihltalbahn. However, it has only suburban trains with the same stopping pattern. If the speed of different trains varies much, things becomes difficult. A mixed traffic single track line can hardly carry more than 4 trains per hour per direction like one intercity, one regional and two freight, an average of 80 per day. And that's would be much.

What Italy lacks in my opinion is a plan like Rail 2000 (plus a few big infrastructural works, like the Brenner Base Tunnel, a new Milan-Venice line, something around La Spezia-Genova-Savona with maybe the Terzo Valico tunnel in the north (I don't know about Southern Italy)). But, first of all, the many small improvements like the ones of Rail 2000 (which has brought 30% more passenger on Swiss railways with the construction of only 70 km of new line, plus many other smaller projects).
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Old September 7th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That's just semantics. ...
No, because there are a lot of lines with few traffic, mostly local, with a huge potential that remain untapped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
You'd be suprised what you can do with a single track railway. I know of one line in Switzerland that has trains every 10 minutes in both directions, that is still mostly single track...
Agree, but it is one line in Switzerland; I suppose a short line.
I'm talking about a path long more than 400 km, partially electrified and with some change of directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
On a map of the railway network. (I have the Schweers and Wall railway atlas for Italy)

What I see is 2 tracks leading eas, 2 tracks leading west, 4 tracks leading north and a layout that should allow one to route freight and passenger trains through the area seperately. ....
It is false.
I'm travelling every days between Savona and Genoa; from west to east there are only two tracks for all kind of traffic.
What you see on Schweers+Wall is the future scenario, when the actual work in progress will finish.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #214
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As far I know (the source is the usual traffic engineers' website) RFI has removed all tracks between Genova and Savona, except the two main tracks (obviously). This means that an intercity cannot overtake a regional train stopping everywhere, reducing the capacity of the line. Sure, 4 tracks would be welcomed, but instead of improving the capacity of the existing line as much as possible, RFI has reduced it.

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Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Agree, but it is one line in Switzerland; I suppose a short line.
I'm talking about a path long more than 400 km, partially electrified and with some change of directions.
Yes, it is around 20 km long, so it's absolutely not comparable with a 400 km line. It could be compared with the Savona-Ventimiglia line once the new tracks under construction will be completed (which will leave two separate single tracks sections of about 15 km each).
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Old September 7th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
(I don't know about Southern Italy)).
This is what railways in Southern Italy needs:

1. Messina Strait Bridge
2. Messina Strati Bridge (it's never enough to state the importance of that project)
3. Modernization and some new alignments and twinning (where it's still single track) of Salerno-Villa San Giovanni railway
4. Modernization of the Adriatica railway (Bologna-Bari), including a 3rd track Bologna-Ancona.
5. Electrification of the Jonica railway
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Old September 7th, 2011, 06:25 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As far I know (the source is the usual traffic engineers' website) RFI has removed all tracks between Genova and Savona, except the two main tracks (obviously). This means that an intercity cannot overtake a regional train stopping everywhere, reducing the capacity of the line. Sure, 4 tracks would be welcomed, but instead of improving the capacity of the existing line as much as possible, RFI has reduced it.
That has happened throughout Italy but for a different reason. They removed passing loops and additional sidings in many stations to cut costs when improvements in signaling and new protocols for SCMT (sistema controllo marcia treno) were deployed in the 1990s.

The sidings couldn't accommodate any sizable freight train though. At most, they were used to allow regional short trains queuing on smaller stations to allow faster trains to go by. But there had been decided there was excessive regional service in the SAvona-Genova sector, they couldn't use much longer trains, and it would cost a lot to improve signaling, so they removed all switches, short parallel tracks (shorter than 150m), dead-end sidings etc.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 06:26 PM   #217
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Salerno-Villa San Giovanni is already double track and quite fast (160-200 km/h on some parts). You may be confused by the Tropea diversion: it was the original line, that has been supplemented by a new double track line about 20 years ago. It is now only used by regional trains, and when the new line is closed because of works.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 06:30 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Salerno-Villa San Giovanni is already double track and quite fast (160-200 km/h on some parts). You may be confused by the Tropea diversion: it was the original line, that has been supplemented by a new double track line about 20 years ago. It is now only used by regional trains, and when the new line is closed because of works.
There is single-track section near Paola AFAIK and some short single-track sections near Scila and Rosarno. Also, there are many speed limitations as low as 70km/h, especially on the final 50km.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #219
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I'm not aware of any single track part, however it is possible that where the second track was built later it follows a different alignment (usually in long tunnels, with the first track on bridges and short tunnels).

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
At most, they were used to allow regional short trains queuing on smaller stations to allow faster trains to go by.
And that was important.
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Old September 8th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Salerno-Villa San Giovanni is already double track and quite fast (160-200 km/h on some parts). You may be confused by the Tropea diversion: it was the original line, that has been supplemented by a new double track line about 20 years ago. It is now only used by regional trains, and when the new line is closed because of works.
It's correct, there isn't no single track section, neither near Paola, except for the oldest path through Tropea.
The line was rebuilt in the '60 and the section through Tropea was substituted by the section through Lamezia and Rosarno.
Some years ago there was a speed limitation near Scilla due a landslide, I don't know if it is still in use.

EDIT
Regarding the line Savona-Genova, there is the Cogoleto station that allows to overtake a train and, if a traffic manager is present, even the Varazze station.
No switch section is present anymore on the line, for a dynamic overtake.

Last edited by JB Colbert; September 8th, 2011 at 10:10 AM. Reason: add a new part in the message
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