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Old December 31st, 2015, 02:03 PM   #581
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This is a massive improvement over the old rolling stock. I also think this railway have tons of potential to double as a touristic attraction, something like the Swiss do with some lines (regular services but also some named trains with panorama cars etc). It could help create some needed diversification of employment in the etna flank villages as well. But given the level of incompetence of politicians I doubt it very much it would happen.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 06:07 PM   #582
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To act as a tourist attraction, they would firstly have to start running trains on Sundays and public holidays...
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:25 PM   #583
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To act as a tourist attraction, they would firstly have to start running trains on Sundays and public holidays...
All the train are running in sunday in Italy, never heard about what you say...
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:30 PM   #584
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A few years ago I wanted to take the train in Milano Greco Pirelli, quite an important station. I tried to look for a way to buy a ticket, but both machines were broken (just 2 of them, in a station of a city of 1 million+ people...) and there were no opened ticket counters. I boarded the train and said that to the conductor, who sold me a ticket without the 5 € surcharge and said that I should have bought the ticket at the bar-restaurant inside the station. But how on earth one can imagine that one should buy train ticket in a restaurant? It's absurd

Anyway, at the opening of Milan's suburban trains tunnel and for some years after no station of it (except one) had no ticket machine or counter. I'm not speaking of a rural semi-abandoned station, but of the central stations of Milan.

Not having at all easy ways to buy ticket is absurd, however in these cases one should refuse to pay the 5 € extra, as AFAIK Trenitalia do not ask them if there is no ticket machine or counter.
Well in swiss it's also complicate to anderstand how work ticket for public transport...in some place it's really confuse, Geneva for exemple... and I'm from switzerland! And you pay really expensive ticket for short travelling...
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Old January 7th, 2016, 07:55 PM   #585
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On many secondary lines (incuding some linking towns with 50.000+ people, not jus villages...) there is no Sunday service, or if there is one, it is very unacctractive (3 trains a day or so). Some Along some railway lines on Sundays there are buses instead, but again, not much.

For instance: https://www.fseonline.it/downloadorari.aspx or http://www.trasportoferroviariotosca...rari-dei-treni (in this case, 13 train pairs on workdays, 2 bus return trips on Sundays afternoon - basically useless).

In Switzerland there are sometimes complicated fare structures, however, if you want a train ticket, you go to a train ticket office or to a train ticket machine, not in a restaurant.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 01:12 AM   #586
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This ticketing situation is a left-over of the spillovers of the hideous monopolies/privileged tabacchai (small shops that, despite their "tobacco shop", used to have a lot of privileges and concessions to collect bills, sell state stamps or paid forms, transportation tickets etc.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 02:21 PM   #587
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On many secondary lines (incuding some linking towns with 50.000+ people, not jus villages...) there is no Sunday service, or if there is one, it is very unacctractive (3 trains a day or so). Some Along some railway lines on Sundays there are buses instead, but again, not much.

For instance: https://www.fseonline.it/downloadorari.aspx or http://www.trasportoferroviariotosca...rari-dei-treni (in this case, 13 train pairs on workdays, 2 bus return trips on Sundays afternoon - basically useless).

In Switzerland there are sometimes complicated fare structures, however, if you want a train ticket, you go to a train ticket office or to a train ticket machine, not in a restaurant.
Please Exhaust does line I'm intresting. But, hey we are in Italy Men! What you expect? Same kind of problem in France or Spain or other big country! Of cors In swiss everthing work but it's 10 time smaller and its 10 times expensive too!! Anyway they have very nice train and they go very fast but yes in some region they replace train cause they are no client thats it! It's more comon to use car in Italy, and I also anderstand that cause they also have very nice car Now if you go in Milan central station today you will find all ticket corner in every level very easely, and don't forget to admire the architecture, I can wait train for our to visit that station
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Old January 13th, 2016, 02:26 PM   #588
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This ticketing situation is a left-over of the spillovers of the hideous monopolies/privileged tabacchai (small shops that, despite their "tobacco shop", used to have a lot of privileges and concessions to collect bills, sell state stamps or paid forms, transportation tickets etc.
I think you exagerate, hideous? Come on!! If it's give jobs to people why not? In Italy it's like that what we can do? And I prefer that than machine everywhere... What is Hideous it's to denigrate all the time other way of life. You are pathetic.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 11:56 PM   #589
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I think you exagerate, hideous? Come on!! If it's give jobs to people why not? In Italy it's like that what we can do? And I prefer that than machine everywhere... What is Hideous it's to denigrate all the time other way of life. You are pathetic.
I'm not denigrating the people who work there, I'm bashing the unacceptable and pernicious intervention of the Italian state, creating unneeded bureaucracy (such as the past arrangements for "marca da bollo") or sponsoring backwardness in the name of creating jobs (which doesn't work in the long term and only leaves a country saddled with micro-managed such as mandated staggered afternoon closures of certain businesses, monopolisitic rights for certain economic activities, certifications/signatures for minor things etc.

The people working in the tabacchai were just making a living, I don't blame them. I blame the system that ended up with a result of people needing to go to a restaurant to buy a train ticket.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 12:18 AM   #590
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Old January 14th, 2016, 12:38 PM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm not denigrating the people who work there, I'm bashing the unacceptable and pernicious intervention of the Italian state, creating unneeded bureaucracy (such as the past arrangements for "marca da bollo") or sponsoring backwardness in the name of creating jobs (which doesn't work in the long term and only leaves a country saddled with micro-managed such as mandated staggered afternoon closures of certain businesses, monopolisitic rights for certain economic activities, certifications/signatures for minor things etc.

The people working in the tabacchai were just making a living, I don't blame them. I blame the system that ended up with a result of people needing to go to a restaurant to buy a train ticket.
But this is excpetionnal case! What are you talking about bureaucracy and micro managment? really I don't anderstand your argument anyway,look if you want buy a ticket you go to the website of trenitalia and you get it! You have choice between Frecce, Regional and intercity train, all the train possible! If people are not abble to use smartphone to by a ticket they have to stay at home...
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Old January 14th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #592
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In 2010 smartphones did not exist. And anyway, don't have ticket machines in many stations of a big city is just idiot. For instance, there are elderly people, tourists that don't want to bother to register to a website/understand how it works just to buy a local train ticket once in a lifetime, and so on.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 11:49 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In 2010 smartphones did not exist.
In 1999, the Japanese firm NTT DoCoMo released the first smartphones to achieve mass adoption within a country.
In 2007, Apple Inc. introduced the iPhone, one of the first smartphones to use a multi-touch interface.
2008 saw the release of the first phone to use Android called the HTC Dream.
By 2010 just about everybody I knew had smartphones.



Regardless, I think all stations should have ticket machines.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 11:57 PM   #594
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In Switzerland there are sometimes complicated fare structures, however, if you want a train ticket, you go to a train ticket office or to a train ticket machine, not in a restaurant.
Sorry, but excluding the cows who cares about what happens in Switzerland?
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Old January 15th, 2016, 02:45 AM   #595
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Many people still don't have smartphones, many more don't have data, and many tourists can't use(or want to use) data when they are roaming. Just a quick look at the Trenitalia website displays some train connections which I can't buy online tickets for.
Why is it so hard to sell tickets at a train station? I don't have to go to the tobacconist up the road if I want to sit in a cafe and have a coffee.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 10:41 AM   #596
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Many people still don't have smartphones, many more don't have data, and many tourists can't use(or want to use) data when they are roaming. Just a quick look at the Trenitalia website displays some train connections which I can't buy online tickets for.
Why is it so hard to sell tickets at a train station? I don't have to go to the tobacconist up the road if I want to sit in a cafe and have a coffee.
I don't know where you came from, but here in Europe everybody have a smartphone...and specially in Italy... Again it could hapen in exceptional case that you have to by your ticket in tabacheria or restaurant. Look, in every station, in every town you have ticket machine today. Maybe one day the machine can be broken, so what? never happen in your land?
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Old January 15th, 2016, 12:15 PM   #597
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Just a quick look at the Trenitalia website displays some train connections which I can't buy online tickets for.
For instance? Are you sure you're not looking too far in advance?

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Why is it so hard to sell tickets at a train station? I don't have to go to the tobacconist up the road if I want to sit in a cafe and have a coffee.
It's not hard, it's stupid and would be a waste of taxpayers' money.
We have tobacconists every 2 blocks in every italian settlement and they are already connected to a shell-proof network infrastructure. Why should we pay to keep counters open and/or machines working if there is a cheaper alternative?
If there is a bar in any station that's open 24/7, why can't we use the bar cashier to sell tickets and save money?
Are you scared of followin' a "Tickets" sign that takes you to a bar or a tobacconists and not to a counter?

It's like paying the bills at the supermarket checkout while shopping, it's a good smooth idea that makes life easier. Who would ever complain saying: "Banks are the place to pay bills, not drugstores"?
Same for train tickets. Thanks to the internet we can sell them anywhere, let's do it.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 03:09 AM   #598
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My Father doesn't have a smartphone and I have a number of friends who don't use them, one is an engineering manager at a well known multinational, besides since when does your type of phone or your data contract become a condition of carraige.
Why do people defend the indefensible, sell tickets at trainstations or else don't penalise people who board at ticketless stations, simples. How does selling tickets at a train station waste taxpayers money? And please stop being facetious, have you ever seen a supermarket open with no cash registers open?
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Old January 16th, 2016, 06:16 AM   #599
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How does selling tickets at a train station waste taxpayers money?
If there are free alternatives inside or outside the station, by opening a counter or installing a ticket machine you're wasting my money.
I'm quite surprised I have to explain such a simple idea: it would be like keeping on paying the crew of a ferry even if someone else has built a bridge and lets you use it for free.

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And please stop being facetious, have you ever seen a supermarket open with no cash registers open?
Nonsense.
I used the supermarket example to show that today you can use existing sales channels to provide services that before the internet could and were sold only at few, specific places. I.e. banks for bills and ticket offices for train tickets.
Those days are gone, now any kind of merchant with a secure connection with trenitalia's system can sell trenitalia's tickets (or let you pay the bills).
Who would ever give up such an opportunity to multiply indefinitely the point of sales and save money?
And why? Because our grandfathers used so and a couple of octogenarians foreign tourists can't learn how another system works before using it?
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Old January 16th, 2016, 10:09 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
In 1999, the Japanese firm NTT DoCoMo released the first smartphones to achieve mass adoption within a country.
In 2007, Apple Inc. introduced the iPhone, one of the first smartphones to use a multi-touch interface.
2008 saw the release of the first phone to use Android called the HTC Dream.
By 2010 just about everybody I knew had smartphones.



Regardless, I think all stations should have ticket machines.
Yes, sorry, however, they were likely less common than today (I didn't have one). And certainly they weren't common at all in 1997, when the first section of Milan's suburban train tunnel opened (without working ticket machines).

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It's not hard, it's stupid and would be a waste of taxpayers' money.
Milan's suburban train tunnel had ticket machines from the beginning, but they have never been activated and have likely all be destroyed because obsolete without having never been used. New and working ticket machines have been installed some years ago, but the tunnel operated for a decade without ways to buy tickets before boarding the train, and that before the widespread use of smartphones.

Also the day I was in Milano Greco Pirelli station (the one were tickets were sold in the restaurant) there were two ticket machines, but both out of use. Note that there was no sign telling tickets had to be bought in the restaurant, nor the newsagent int he station knew how to buy tickets.

So the waste of money was not installing ticket machines, but installing them and then don't bother to activate or repair them. They costed to install, but generated no revenue.

Ticket machines are expensive, so it is really not worth installing them ad every minor station (where smarthphones and train conductors can be a very good way to sell tickets). However, we are not speaking about Albuzzano (population 2.500), but about Milan (population 1.343.163).

(this not to cite the many cases of real waste of taxpayer's money, like many Italian railways refurbished and then closed)

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Sorry, but excluding the cows who cares about what happens in Switzerland?
Every country, every city, every rail company has its strengths and its problems. Pretending to be superior to others might hide to yourself the problems, but will not solve them.

Some examples: http://www.stagniweb.it/problemi.htm (sorry, only in Italian, but with some English notes worth reading)
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