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Old July 12th, 2016, 09:52 PM   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
That's way wrong.

Between Corato and Andria there are 60 trains per day.

http://www.ferrovienordbarese.it/tmp...r_est_2016.pdf
That should not be a problem for a single track line. The time between those stations is 11 minutes, so even a half hourly service would not be a problem.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 09:54 PM   #662
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That line operates with ancient track protection standards based on manual authorization transmitted by phone

No protection system let alone any redundancy, whatsoever.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 10:23 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by elekto View Post
which EMUs are involved? they look like CAF Civity..
By the look of it then a Stadler FLIRT and an Alstom Coradia Meridian, both from Ferrotramviaria.
Info at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrotramviaria
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Old July 13th, 2016, 12:17 AM   #664
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which EMUs are involved? they look like CAF Civity..
Yellow/Green one looks like a Flirt.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 01:26 AM   #665
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Some images from the accident site from La Repubblica


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.

.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 01:30 AM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elekto View Post
which EMUs are involved? they look like CAF Civity..
The yellow one is a Stadler FLIRT. The blue-white one is a Coradia Meridian by Alstom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That should not be a problem for a single track line. The time between those stations is 11 minutes, so even a half hourly service would not be a problem.
In fact is not. The problem is that that stretch of line has no electronic or electric train management. Trains are dispatched via phone between station managers.

It's called "blocco telefonico" in italian.

Still not really sure on what happened, but probably the two managers (the one in Andria and the one in Corato) give green light to both trains at the same time.

When that happen, there's nothing avoiding the collision. No railway protection, no track circuit saying that the line is already occupied by another vehicle.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 02:03 PM   #667
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Wow. Realise that single track interlocking was invented over 125 years ago, in fact, it was the reason the first forms of signalling was invented in the first place.

If it was caused by an error of one of the station masters, it would be another unfortunate example that human operators are prone to make mistakes and one mistake is enough.

The number of trains suggest this isn't some middle of nowhere line. I hope RFI will install some basic form of protection asap. In Sweden they are testing an ERTMS L3 based system (ERTMS Regional) that could suit this line.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 02:06 PM   #668
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That line isn't property of RFI. It's owner is the Regione Puglia, that left it to Ferrotramviaria SpA.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #669
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Wow. Realise that single track interlocking was invented over 125 years ago, in fact, it was the reason the first forms of signalling was invented in the first place.
I cannot contest that, because I have no prior knowledge of the subject. However, I found a neat little article about the history of railway signalling. It seems to imply that it was in the 1930s that the "telephone block" system was beginning to get replaced in Europe: http://www.railwaysignalling.eu/wp-c...h_to_ERTMS.pdf.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 06:24 PM   #670
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That line operates with ancient track protection standards based on manual authorization transmitted by phone

No protection system let alone any redundancy, whatsoever.
Final confirmations between the two drivers before proceeding onto the single track is a redundancy.

Eu bureaucracy has not reached Italy?
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Old July 13th, 2016, 07:53 PM   #671
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Eu bureaucracy has not reached Italy?
Some forms of bureaucracy are not that bad after all. Unfortunately the "bureaucrats" aren't always able to concentrate on the essentials.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 08:20 PM   #672
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This has nothing to do with EU, but with the way non-RFI rail infrastructure has been often left behind in terms of pesky upgrades.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 09:10 PM   #673
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In contrary, it does involve EU as well. It's all about creating standards (like "no passenger traffic allowed without specified elementary safety measures"), implementing and enforcing them. Without blaming anybody at EU level, there should exist priorities. Instead of multiplying pointless regulations, concentrate on principal issues, safety in the first row.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 01:46 AM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
In Sweden they are testing an ERTMS L3 based system (ERTMS Regional) that could suit this line.
Also in Sardinia RFI tested some satellite applications fore "low cost" ERTMS. It was part of official research on ERTMS, not some independent effort.

It should probably be concluded by now, but I am not aware of official updates.

Regarding burocracy, what are you all talking about? This is one of the sectors where burocracy has improved in efficiency. It is because of burocracy that all regional networks are now passing under supervision of National Authority for Railway Safety, and therefore being forced to implement automatic protection systems. For them is probably just a net cost...
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Old July 14th, 2016, 01:55 AM   #675
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In contrary, it does involve EU as well. It's all about creating standards (like "no passenger traffic allowed without specified elementary safety measures"), implementing and enforcing them. Without blaming anybody at EU level, there should exist priorities. Instead of multiplying pointless regulations, concentrate on principal issues, safety in the first row.
Are you aware that common industry transportation standards predate EU by at least 90 years?
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Old July 14th, 2016, 02:57 AM   #676
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Are you aware that common industry transportation standards predate EU by at least 90 years?
Apparently (and still).
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Old July 14th, 2016, 07:07 AM   #677
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The common standards within the EU rail networks are very much needed. In practice though you have (among else) separate strict national homologation processes concerning the rolling stocks and in the same time obvious compromises on safety like on the line in question.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 08:44 AM   #678
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Every major railway around the world, especially the (former) state railways, seems to consider itself special and unique and therefore fights standardisation. The EU is trying though.
Rolling stock homologation has already been addressed by the EU. For rolling stock already homologated in another country you're only allowed to mandate tests not already conducted elsewhere, for instance track circuit compatibility tests.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 12:13 PM   #679
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Surely Token apparatus should be used, I am amazed they were relying on telephone block confirmation , that is so open to failure .
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Old July 14th, 2016, 03:22 PM   #680
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If italians think their railways are bad, come to Montenegro and see ours..
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