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Old March 3rd, 2017, 10:28 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by brick84 View Post
Railway station of Pozzallo (RG), Sicily

Works for upgrade on railways has been completed





















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Is it a south Italy ralways thread or can we have some news or picture form other region how are absolutly more interesting with more project and real modern infrastructure not like sicily how have third world agenda...
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Old March 6th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #742
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Are the south of Italy and Sicily not part of Italy?
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Old March 6th, 2017, 03:13 PM   #743
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Are the south of Italy and Sicily not part of Italy?
Jes but for month we have only news from sicily. This region is 5 millions people, total Italy is 61 millions and sicily is not really active in ralways infrastructure unlike the rest of the country, I will not explain why even if I have my personal opinion...

So it's maybe time to talk for example the new speed line between Genova and Milano now in construction... Nodo di Bologna, Firenze. New speed line between Milano and Brescia... Cause frankly the update of the Agrigento station or Alcamo or Caltanisseta its ok but Italy is not only that...
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Old March 6th, 2017, 04:15 PM   #744
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Yeah, it's just Sicily all the time. Needless to say, Europeans are more interested in northern Italy.
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Old March 6th, 2017, 11:34 PM   #745
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Nothing is preventing other people from posting projects from elsewhere...

This being said, massive rail investments are needed in southernmost Italy, such as a high speed rail Salerno-bridge/tunnel-Messina (Catania / Palermo) + branch to Reggio Calabria, a high speed link to Bari, electrification of the Jonian railway (the alignment is not bad, that coastal area has gentle terrain).
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Old March 7th, 2017, 12:19 AM   #746
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This being said, massive rail investments are needed in southernmost Italy, such as a high speed rail Salerno-bridge/tunnel-Messina (Catania / Palermo) + branch to Reggio Calabria
Knowing your style from a long time, while reading I seriously thought that with "bridge/tunnel" you meant a FULL bridge or tunnel:



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Old March 8th, 2017, 07:20 PM   #747
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Jes but for month we have only news from sicily. This region is 5 millions people, total Italy is 61 millions and sicily is not really active in ralways infrastructure unlike the rest of the country, I will not explain why even if I have my personal opinion...

So it's maybe time to talk for example the new speed line between Genova and Milano now in construction... Nodo di Bologna, Firenze. New speed line between Milano and Brescia... Cause frankly the update of the Agrigento station or Alcamo or Caltanisseta its ok but Italy is not only that...
Nobody is stopping you from posting about that here, likewise here is no obligation for others to produce posts tailored to your liking here nor is there an obligation to read the thread. If there only posts about Sicily here, it is because people have only posted about Sicily and for no other reason. I believe you owe Brick84 an apology for your ill mannered outburst.
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Old March 9th, 2017, 03:26 AM   #748
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Milano Centrale station


Stazione Centrale, Milano by Alessandro

https://www.flickr.com/photos/josean...o/30009655754/
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Old March 10th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insulateshipper View Post
Is it a south Italy ralways thread or can we have some news or picture form other region how are absolutly more interesting with more project and real modern infrastructure not like sicily how have third world agenda...
I posted news, photos and updates from Sicily's railways because i follow mainly those threads.
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old March 13th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #750
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The station of Pozzallo (after renovations!) must be one of the saddest of Italy
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Old March 18th, 2017, 11:35 PM   #751
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Railway line Palermo-Messina, Sicily

The works on the new railway station of Campofelice (near Palermo) has been completed.




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Completati tutti i lavori alla stazione di Campofelice: piccola ricognizione



Ingresso sottopassaggio binario 1


Binario 1 vista verso Lascari


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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte

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Old March 23rd, 2017, 12:17 AM   #752
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Whenever I see images of a brand new (or renovated) station in Italy, I immediately have to think how it will look like in 5 or 10 years.

The omnipresent vandalism is so strong in Italy like in no other country in Europe I have traveled. In the above picture, those wide stone cladded walls will soon be totally covered with graffiti and tags, overlapping each other and getting even worse when partly washed out. Then, every -really every- smooth surface is inevitably tagged using those marker pencils. Parts that are not bomb proof are usually being vandalized, for example benches, toilets, fountains, flowers or trash bins or any kind of decoration.

Really everything. This makes me so sad as I spent my childhood in this beautiful country. Sure, some regions are more civilized (usually poor rural regions, or those in the Alps), but where ever there is urbanity there is vandalism and destruction.

Then of course every kind of litter can be thrown everywhere, right where it falls out of the holders hands. Plus, public spaces that are a bit more hidden behind a corner become public toilets or dump areas for larger goods from destroyed home electronics to construction materials.

One consequence of that apparently already "accepted" social behavior is that when new common spaces are being build (like train stations, parks, paths etc) thy don't even try to make it nice and cozy as they already know in advance it will be destroyed anyway. Instead they build boring concrete stuff and fence everything and stuff cameras (they destroy those too) in total desperation.

Another answer to the common incivilzed behavior is to privatize public spaces, resulting in distorted shopping-mall stations like Milano Centrale. But even this model does not function anymore as it seems many "Cento Stazioni-ized" medium sized stations now have huge empty shopping spaces which were created only a few years ago.

The odd thing is that people complain that RFI/Trenitalia is not cleaning their spaces good enough(!).

Last but not least, many people who were once frequent railway travelers in the past refrain from using todays public transport if they are not lucky enough to have a Freccia Rossa stopping right in front of their house.


For me, I really love to see when common goods are respected and well maintained, it spreads sort of harmony and makes me feel "part" of what is there.

In Italy's public spaces the beauty is mostly what remains from a great past, which worked well until beginning of the 1990ies.

Do I exaggerate? Do I see things worse than they are?

When I was a child, stations where blooming gardens, had tiny fountains with fishes in them, fountains on the platforms for the thirsty, mini-parks with nice well kept colorful plants, benches with something nice to look at while waiting for the trains etc... that is all gone, outsourced, forgotten and above all vandalized.

And people complain "it is dirty". No. Dirt is not the problem, it is the consequence.
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Last edited by krisu99; March 23rd, 2017 at 01:28 AM.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 02:27 PM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Whenever I see images of a brand new (or renovated) station in Italy, I immediately have to think how it will look like in 5 or 10 years.

The omnipresent vandalism is so strong in Italy like in no other country in Europe I have traveled. In the above picture, those wide stone cladded walls will soon be totally covered with graffiti and tags, overlapping each other and getting even worse when partly washed out. Then, every -really every- smooth surface is inevitably tagged using those marker pencils. Parts that are not bomb proof are usually being vandalized, for example benches, toilets, fountains, flowers or trash bins or any kind of decoration.

Really everything. This makes me so sad as I spent my childhood in this beautiful country. Sure, some regions are more civilized (usually poor rural regions, or those in the Alps), but where ever there is urbanity there is vandalism and destruction.

Then of course every kind of litter can be thrown everywhere, right where it falls out of the holders hands. Plus, public spaces that are a bit more hidden behind a corner become public toilets or dump areas for larger goods from destroyed home electronics to construction materials.

One consequence of that apparently already "accepted" social behavior is that when new common spaces are being build (like train stations, parks, paths etc) thy don't even try to make it nice and cozy as they already know in advance it will be destroyed anyway. Instead they build boring concrete stuff and fence everything and stuff cameras (they destroy those too) in total desperation.

Another answer to the common incivilzed behavior is to privatize public spaces, resulting in distorted shopping-mall stations like Milano Centrale. But even this model does not function anymore as it seems many "Cento Stazioni-ized" medium sized stations now have huge empty shopping spaces which were created only a few years ago.

The odd thing is that people complain that RFI/Trenitalia is not cleaning their spaces good enough(!).

Last but not least, many people who were once frequent railway travelers in the past refrain from using todays public transport if they are not lucky enough to have a Freccia Rossa stopping right in front of their house.


For me, I really love to see when common goods are respected and well maintained, it spreads sort of harmony and makes me feel "part" of what is there.

In Italy's public spaces the beauty is mostly what remains from a great past, which worked well until beginning of the 1990ies.

Do I exaggerate? Do I see things worse than they are?

When I was a child, stations where blooming gardens, had tiny fountains with fishes in them, fountains on the platforms for the thirsty, mini-parks with nice well kept colorful plants, benches with something nice to look at while waiting for the trains etc... that is all gone, outsourced, forgotten and above all vandalized.

And people complain "it is dirty". No. Dirt is not the problem, it is the consequence.
"In Italy's public spaces the beauty is mostly what remains from a great past, which worked well until beginning of the 1990ies." I suggest you to visit the Italian Forum concerning the urban renovation in Italy, you will see many high quality project of urban uprising in many Italian city's. Take a look of what they do with Milan for 10 years now...Turin, Ravenna, Padua, Salerno and also now Napoli is moving. We will also see big change in Rome.

I see no problem of degradation in north Italy, except in some suburb that's true. I also agree that in south Italy its really problematic.

Yes Italy is not Austria or Switzerland, we all know that, so what?
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 09:07 PM   #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Whenever I see images of a brand new (or renovated) station in Italy, I immediately have to think how it will look like in 5 or 10 years.

The omnipresent vandalism is so strong in Italy like in no other country in Europe I have traveled. In the above picture, those wide stone cladded walls will soon be totally covered with graffiti and tags, overlapping each other and getting even worse when partly washed out. Then, every -really every- smooth surface is inevitably tagged using those marker pencils. Parts that are not bomb proof are usually being vandalized, for example benches, toilets, fountains, flowers or trash bins or any kind of decoration.

Really everything. This makes me so sad as I spent my childhood in this beautiful country. Sure, some regions are more civilized (usually poor rural regions, or those in the Alps), but where ever there is urbanity there is vandalism and destruction.

Then of course every kind of litter can be thrown everywhere, right where it falls out of the holders hands. Plus, public spaces that are a bit more hidden behind a corner become public toilets or dump areas for larger goods from destroyed home electronics to construction materials.

One consequence of that apparently already "accepted" social behavior is that when new common spaces are being build (like train stations, parks, paths etc) thy don't even try to make it nice and cozy as they already know in advance it will be destroyed anyway. Instead they build boring concrete stuff and fence everything and stuff cameras (they destroy those too) in total desperation.

Another answer to the common incivilzed behavior is to privatize public spaces, resulting in distorted shopping-mall stations like Milano Centrale. But even this model does not function anymore as it seems many "Cento Stazioni-ized" medium sized stations now have huge empty shopping spaces which were created only a few years ago.

The odd thing is that people complain that RFI/Trenitalia is not cleaning their spaces good enough(!).

Last but not least, many people who were once frequent railway travelers in the past refrain from using todays public transport if they are not lucky enough to have a Freccia Rossa stopping right in front of their house.


For me, I really love to see when common goods are respected and well maintained, it spreads sort of harmony and makes me feel "part" of what is there.

In Italy's public spaces the beauty is mostly what remains from a great past, which worked well until beginning of the 1990ies.

Do I exaggerate? Do I see things worse than they are?

When I was a child, stations where blooming gardens, had tiny fountains with fishes in them, fountains on the platforms for the thirsty, mini-parks with nice well kept colorful plants, benches with something nice to look at while waiting for the trains etc... that is all gone, outsourced, forgotten and above all vandalized.

And people complain "it is dirty". No. Dirt is not the problem, it is the consequence.
I an't disagree on the prevalence of the vandalism in my country, unfortunately.
However, I think that a part of the blame is on the public authorities which don't clean up and don't upkeep the spaces. If the graffiti were cleaned as soon as possible, they wouldn't appear again as fast. Same goes for the garbage: a certain level of trash ending up on the grass is inevitable, but no one will ever remove it, so other people will feel more authorised to throw additional garbage.

And you're also right on the "privatisation" of spaces: it ends up creating unpleasant spaces, walls and divisions which eventually make you feel less cozy, and even gives more space for the vandals to act without being stopped.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 11:59 AM   #755
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I completely disagree. It is true that italians do not have the maximum possible idea of "common" and "public" goods and spaces but space is generally better kept than in many other european countries, including France, Greece, many German areas and Spain. Not only, the difference is not between North and South but between communities.
Generalisation is always a very very bad habit.
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Old March 26th, 2017, 12:53 AM   #756
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I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. South-Italy, especially the Naples area had the most litter in towns and next to roads I've seen in any European country and I've been to most EU countries. There was even a huge pile of garbage in the SOS area of a highway tunnel...how does that even happen?

I love Italy, it's a treasure chest of good food, beautiful nature and gorgeous towns but it would be better if it was a bit better kept in places.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 12:47 PM   #757
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I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. South-Italy, especially the Naples area had the most litter in towns and next to roads I've seen in any European country and I've been to most EU countries. There was even a huge pile of garbage in the SOS area of a highway tunnel...how does that even happen?

I love Italy, it's a treasure chest of good food, beautiful nature and gorgeous towns but it would be better if it was a bit better kept in places.
Estonia is also a very nice country (very small to, smaller than an Italian region as Abruzzo), you have train from the soviet union... with 2 lines from Talinn... and no motorway.

And it's not true I know very well Italy, in some province road in south you can have garbage that true, but on the main highway it's perfect. Specially in Puglia.

And I travel a lot in all Europe, East Europe is not better, and in Uk you have also degradation in the highland etc... Same in France with the banlieue... so what?

Go to US, not in California or new York, but inside the country you will see farwest for real...

I think its to easy to require with Italian all the time. It's not fare.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 08:35 PM   #758
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Actually all of our passenger trains are less than 4 years old but that's beside the point. We have dual carriageways but no motorways, that's true.

My example was from SS145, not a small road by any stretch of the imagination: https://www.google.ee/maps/@40.68554...2!8i6656?hl=et
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Old March 29th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #759
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Italians don't care about environment, everyone knows that.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #760
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The omnipresent vandalism is so strong in Italy like in no other country in Europe I have traveled.
No, not at all. It depends on the region and community. Vandalism and Graffiti on railway/metro-stations and tracks in Berlin is the same problem like an a more problematic town in Italy as Berlin is a more problematic town in Germany . Sad to say this as a Berliner, but also here bad things like Graffiti and vandalism started in the mid80s.

Than take a look at Munich and Bavaria. You see the difference travelling along A9. Bridges in East Germany are spread with Graffiti, in Bavaria none is. Poorness of a region may be a reason for devastment. The average GDP of Milan is one of the highest in Europe like Munich or Hamburg. So I guess they have much less problems with vandalism than Sicily.

Also I had to confirm that germans, using FS train-services, have been surprised by accuracy and easy to understand fare-system for foreigners. Something they are not used to in Germany anymore. Nobody told me, that trains and stations were dirty or ugly
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