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Old August 20th, 2013, 11:47 PM   #461
bolg
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
When we talk about quantities, yes, most of these thousands of buildings of Riga, built in Art Nouveau period, are just commieblocks, that look the same, and the same, and the same...

Typically, the street from that period would look something like this:
As I said earlier art nouveau and historicism (since you linked to a neoclassical building) both coincided with the second industrial revolution, a period of both increased wealth and increased urbanization in most Western countries. Far from everyone were rich though, meaning there was a huge demand for affordable living as cities expanded. Those buildings were built in the prevalent styles at the time, granted not with much or any ornamentation but atleast they look good in an urban environment and blend in with their surroundings (which can't be said of the post ww2 housing barracks/commieblocks). Anyway, I don't believe anyone here has mentioned that all of Riga's 800 art nouveau buildings were as grand as the ones posted. It would in fact be impossible that there could ever be so much accumulated wealth in a city of Riga's size in such a short time to even create 800 grand art nouveau buildings.

However I fail to see what's so substandard with the quality of Riga's art nouveau buildings from an artistic point of view, could you please post some pictures of details and ornaments you find kitsch?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:47 AM   #462
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Elizabetes, Alberta and other streets. These buildings do have to much of unnecessary décor, with the idea the more, the better. The designers and architects of those buildings thought the more art nouveau elements they use, the more art nouveau the buildings will be. In fact, they were wrong. Buildings became kitsch. Compare with Barcelona or Vienna and You will see. What is every art movement is all about. Creativity, originality.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 10:14 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Elizabetes, Alberta and other streets. These buildings do have to much of unnecessary décor, with the idea the more, the better. The designers and architects of those buildings thought the more art nouveau elements they use, the more art nouveau the buildings will be. In fact, they were wrong. Buildings became kitsch.
It's just your personal opinion and taste, nothing more.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 07:38 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Elizabetes, Alberta and other streets. These buildings do have to much of unnecessary décor, with the idea the more, the better. The designers and architects of those buildings thought the more art nouveau elements they use, the more art nouveau the buildings will be. In fact, they were wrong. Buildings became kitsch. Compare with Barcelona or Vienna and You will see. What is every art movement is all about. Creativity, originality.
To quote The Dude
Quote:
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man


I'd agree though that the works of Eisensten et al in Riga sometimes differs vastly from other art nouveau works, and that it might not be to everyone's liking. However calling it kitsch is a bit extreme, more so since he's a celebrated architect.

EDIT: I just realized that what I named Casa Bergós on the previous case is actually named Casa Melcior. My mistake.

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Old August 23rd, 2013, 04:44 PM   #465
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The same as kitsch is just up to Your taste, not mine.
Remember, less is more.
Tries to kill dullness of the architectural idea with the great number of details show only poor imagination of the creator.

I prefer Finnish Art Nouveau where the amazement of the spectator is achieved by the play of architectonics, clear structure, stressed major elements, elegance without vain show off or in other words, architectural exhibitionism (like in case of Riga or Kiev)...
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 09:48 PM   #466
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KonstantinasSirvydas:
You might be right that the well-known Riga Art nouveau by Michail Eisenstein might be over the top and kitschy, but your general claim that Riga Art Nouveau as a whole is 'kitsch' sounds to me over the top as well. Why? Well, you are writing that you like the more restaint Finnish Art Nouveau with its 'less is more' appearance. Well, then you should take a closer look in Riga again: there are lots of so-called 'Latvian National Romanticism' buildings designed by Latvian architects like Eizens Laube, Aleksanders Vanags, Janis Alksnis and others who worked with the same 'rational' approach as their Finnish colleages between 1905 and ca. 1912.
Therefore your pictures were not well-chosen for most of that architecture is some kind of eclectic or neo-classisist architecture, of which you can find plenty in Riga and Vilnius as well.

Would it be a nice idea to post some examples of Vilnius Art Nouveau? Pure art nouveau there is rare I admit, but here and there (Montwill district) you can find something.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 10:53 PM   #467
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'Latvian National Romanticism' is less widespread in Riga than "elaborate" art nouveau.
Also, Latvian National Romanticism is different than Finnish as those creators were grown in Riga Polytechnical School with its own style.
You can pick better examples of commieblock'ish art nouveau with only some common details as I found only those pictures of eclectic streets as an example of fin de siècle boredom and working class heroes' monotony.

The best examples of Vilnius were destroyed in 1944-1970s.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
The same as kitsch is just up to Your taste, not mine.
Remember, less is more.
Tries to kill dullness of the architectural idea with the great number of details show only poor imagination of the creator.

I prefer Finnish Art Nouveau where the amazement of the spectator is achieved by the play of architectonics, clear structure, stressed major elements, elegance without vain show off or in other words, architectural exhibitionism (like in case of Riga or Kiev)...
Well of course there are different definitions of kitsch. Some argue that kitsch refers to mass-produced art, others say that kitsch builds on imitation. Neither criteria can be applied on Eisenstein's buildings. Walter Benjamin defines kitsch as art that

Quote:
offers instantaneous emotional gratification without intellectual effort, without the requirement of distance, without sublimation
It seems to me that Eisenstein's work doesn't offer instantaneous emotional gratification to you, but rather the opposite. Therefore it can't be considered kitsch.

Of course you're free to feel that his buildings are in bad taste though.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #469
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Most of the details were actually... Factory made. Factory made things can't be considered art.
It was not Pee of Duchamp/Dušampa pisuārs yet.

Gaudi was not making his sculptures at factory.

Kitsch is basically pretentious absence of taste.
When something is just screaming how it is in some way wealthy, pure, tasteful, but actually is not because of some things, lying on the surface.

Also, architecture ain't design. Those buildings do look like things, made by designers, not an architect.

www.photoriga.com

Plus. Is it really art nouveau?
Seems more like elaborate, decorative eclectic architecture in classical, symmetric composition with repetitive, factory-made elements, what are trying to hide an absence of the idea.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 02:18 AM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Most of the details were actually... Factory made. Factory made things can't be considered art.
It was not Pee of Duchamp/Dušampa pisuārs yet.

Gaudi was not making his sculptures at factory.

Kitsch is basically pretentious absence of taste.
When something is just screaming how it is in some way wealthy, pure, tasteful, but actually is not because of some things, lying on the surface.

Also, architecture ain't design. Those buildings do look like things, made by designers, not an architect.

www.photoriga.com

Plus. Is it really art nouveau?
Seems more like elaborate, decorative eclectic architecture in classical, symmetric composition with repetitive, factory-made elements, what are trying to hide an absence of the idea.
It is not very interesting for me and, I think, a lot of other people to read your complains about how bad is architecture in Riga. This section is for other things, you know. Also, your specific taste, as it seems, does not correlate with most of the people around, so, please, stop. Saying the pic above is not about architecture at all - is laughable.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 02:30 AM   #471
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For one people, more educated in the thing, more interesting is the discussion about the architecture, its theory, for others, as You, consumers, more interesting is only to stare at the pictures and photo albums.

But I ensure You, it is not Your own page on the Internet and it is not You, who create the rules of this page or can ban comments by other members, so I can write whatever I want about architecture in the page, dedicated to the architecture. But I am sure, there are a lot of other pages, dedicated entirely for the quality pictures, that will be more up to Your liking, also You can create one Your own personal page and be Master there, lol
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Old August 24th, 2013, 02:33 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Riga is totally overrated.

From the artistic point of view, these buildings, overwrought with factory-made, industrial details, ornaments, heads is nothing than a pure kitsch.
So only buildings worked on by individual sculptors and painters can be good architecture? Humans decorate things, it's kind of what we do. Being factory-made simply made it more affordable for those who could not do it otherwise.
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More kitschy than Riga could be only Kiev, with even more overwrought, tasteless buildings.
Compared to many "original" structures built today? I'd rather have these "tasteless" structures.
Quote:

What is more, most of these buildings in Riga look just the same as the others, there are only small number of original ones. Also, these were built for factory workers, are just commieblocks of the early 20th century.

There are some good examples, though.
Buildings of similar good styles work in a flow, like a beautiful dance or graceful choir. It's hardly something that's undesirable and is often sought after in cities. A city made up of buildings all desperate to look unique is like a lot of children all yelling over the other to be heard. There is a time and place.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 03:52 AM   #473
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So only buildings worked on by individual sculptors and painters can be good architecture? Humans decorate things, it's kind of what we do. Being factory-made simply made it more affordable for those who could not do it otherwise.
Well, as a dwelling place for a factory worker it suites very well, but it can't be put on the cover of the book "The Greatest and The Most Creative Art Nouveau architecture in the World Ever Period".

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Compared to many "original" structures built today? I'd rather have these "tasteless" structures.
There are great many of wonderful structures nowadays. It seems every generation think it is deliberately chosen by God as the worst generation EVER. Actually, God would not stand an idea, that one generation is better/worse than the other and every generation is "as cool as the other" (proven by the Leopold von Ranke already).

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Buildings of similar good styles work in a flow, like a beautiful dance or graceful choir. It's hardly something that's undesirable and is often sought after in cities. A city made up of buildings all desperate to look unique is like a lot of children all yelling over the other to be heard. There is a time and place.
After Vienna it does not seems so. When a person arrives at that city, it is cool, wow effect and so on, but after some weeks or months the spectator understands, that that grid street pattern with the buildings of the same height for kilometers and kilometers, those monotonic façades again and again and AGAIN. City without soul, city, designed for robots, city, so perfectly planned, that one wanna puke.
And Riga in some sense can be called "Little Vienna".
And now look at Prague, look at Budapest. Cities with souls, creatively built, with a little bit chaotic, but at least picturesque street network, and so on.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 04:39 AM   #474
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Well, as a dwelling place for a factory worker it suites very well, but it can't be put on the cover of the book "The Greatest and The Most Creative Art Nouveau architecture in the World Ever Period".
Well certainly such structures do not qualify as the best of Art Nouveau, but that's far from dull or without value. The little Victorian cottage on the corner may not be the best example of her style, but that does not make it less beautiful.
Quote:

There are great many of wonderful structures nowadays. It seems every generation think it is deliberately chosen by God as the worst generation EVER. Actually, God would not stand an idea, that one generation is better/worse than the other and every generation is "as cool as the other" (proven by the Leopold von Ranke already).
Please, most architects and artists believe themselves vastly superior (with little reason to believe so) over their deceased predecessors. Generations do not follow some simplistic model. In some ways things have improved, in others they've declined, sometimes more the latter and vice versa.
Quote:

After Vienna it does not seems so. When a person arrives at that city, it is cool, wow effect and so on, but after some weeks or months the spectator understands, that that grid street pattern with the buildings of the same height for kilometers and kilometers, those monotonic façades again and again and AGAIN. City without soul, city, designed for robots, city, so perfectly planned, that one wanna puke.
And Riga in some sense can be called "Little Vienna".
And now look at Prague, look at Budapest. Cities with souls, creatively built, with a little bit chaotic, but at least picturesque street network, and so on.
Strange, I've lived in an old 19th century city where most structures are of the same general style, and I never grew tired of their beauty, even after several years. Yes, but even cities like Prague have a specific flow and fashion to them.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #475
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These are exquisitely beautiful. Elegant, graceful, charming, fanciful, stately.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #476
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For one people, more educated in the thing, more interesting is the discussion about the architecture, its theory, for others, as You, consumers, more interesting is only to stare at the pictures and photo albums.
Statements which you are proclaiming on this page barely can't be called "the discussion". It's just agressive promotion your personal point of view.
Learn to respect other people tastes and opinions, and do not think you are only "educated" person here, before start any "discussion". Such arrogant and impolite statements are the reason, why most people here prefer just to look the photos and don't communicate with persons like you.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #477
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Liberty style in Bari, Italy: Palazzo Mincuzzi.







Source: http://www.impresaresta.it/palazzo-mincuzzi-bari/
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Old August 24th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #478
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Statements which you are proclaiming on this page barely can't be called "the discussion". It's just agressive promotion your personal point of view.
Learn to respect other people tastes and opinions, and do not think you are only "educated" person here, before start any "discussion". Such arrogant and impolite statements are the reason, why most people here prefer just to look the photos and don't communicate with persons like you.
I use arguments, while You don't. The only undeniable argument of Yours is "taste".
I speak about the architecture, You make arguments personally against an opponent instead of against their argument. Messages, like this one are called personal attacks, actually.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #479
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Most of the details were actually... Factory made. Factory made things can't be considered art.
It was not Pee of Duchamp/Dušampa pisuārs yet.

Gaudi was not making his sculptures at factory.

Kitsch is basically pretentious absence of taste.
When something is just screaming how it is in some way wealthy, pure, tasteful, but actually is not because of some things, lying on the surface.
Just because it's factory made doesn't mean its mass-produced. By itself a factory with all its machines is just a tool to help realize the artist's or architect's vision, just like a chisel, a hammer or an anvil. A factory is not a sentient being creating its own designs. While I agree that it's more impressive if it's handmade, the choice of tools doesn't decide if it's kitsch or not.

You're in your full right to dislike the buildings, what I disagree with is your use of the word kitsch, and I honestly can't find any source that supports your definition of the word.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 04:40 PM   #480
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Kitsch is vain pretension. That's what I see in some of these.
All is explained in previous messages.
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