Why is UK/Europe lagging in hybrid tech compared to NA/Japan?

[aquablue]

Why, given that NYC already has 1700 hybrid busses and 20 percent of its taxis are hybrid. Don't you think, given the pressing need in London and Paris, etc, that governments would be a bit more interested in improving the quality of life for its citizens.. the tech is available now. When i see european cities buying 6 hybrids while NYC is so far ahead, I don't know what to make of it. I mean, london taxis and busses --> perfect opportunity to help improve the environment in the city, likewise for paris.

[JDRS]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...emes/2019.aspx

[poshbakerloo]

I guess we will do it sometime!

[aquablue]

So, I assume that they are not yet available resulting in a wait until 2012 for new introductions? Otherwise, why the wait?

How does this tie in with the new routemaster hybrid bus -- will this be in addition or will the new routemaster replace these?

[blahblah]

Don't believe the hype. Hybrids are not all they're cracked up to be.

The real world MPG of these things is nowhere near what the manufacturer's claim, and that's before you take into account the increased CO2 emissions from mining the lithium from the batteries, and shipping the vehicles here from Japan.

A news story recently stated that the world's 10 biggest ships emit more co2 than every car on the planet combined for example.

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An Auto Express Columnist has been getting real world MPG of 60mpg from a Volvo Diesel with improved aerodynamics, regenerative braking, stop/start technlolgy and solar powered aircon.

Volvo V50 DrivE

[Republica]

blah blah, Its the reduction in local pollution and noise reduction that make them worthwhile, not the co2 recudtions overall.

[dronkula]

Originally Posted by aquablue

So, I assume that they are not yet available resulting in a wait until 2012 for new introductions? Otherwise, why the wait?

How does this tie in with the new routemaster hybrid bus -- will this be in addition or will the new routemaster replace these?

The wait is because of the way buses in London are run.

TfL regulates the bus companies that actually run the buses. They award contracts to those companies and, when a new contract is award, they can put in specific requirements for running it such as 'must use hybrids', 'must use the new Routemaster' etc etc..

However, they can't force the bus companies to change their buses before those contracts have expired.

So, because they work so far ahead, it's safe to assume that from now on, any new contracts being awarded are for 2012 onwards.

And, with the fiasco of the Bendybuses/Routemasters I doubt any bus company would willingly change to using Hybrids before they were forced to do it in case there was a public backlash against them and they were used as a political football in the next mayor election. It would just take something like someone complaining that they're dangerous because they're too quiet and you can't hear them for people to turn against them.

[aquablue]

Co2 is actually emphasized far too much IMO over more toxic particles/gasses -- just b/c it reduces Co2 doesn't mean anything, local air conditions are of a more pressing importance IMO especially in large urban areas.

Hopefully the new routemaster will be a green bus.

[NCT]

I think that Trolleybuses are still the best option for alleviating urban pollution. Technology has improved to a point where running speed is no lower than conventional diesel buses, and off-wire running is possible for some distance. Manoeurvability isn't really an issue especially when trolleybuses are better at acceleration. Coupled with no (direct) emmision and low noise levels I don't see why they shouldn't be tried again in London.

[HollyBlack]

Originally Posted by NCT

I think that Trolleybuses are still the best option for alleviating urban pollution. Technology has improved to a point where running speed is no lower than conventional diesel buses, and off-wire running is possible for some distance. Manoeurvability isn't really an issue especially when trolleybuses are better at acceleration. Coupled with no (direct) emission and low noise levels I don't see why they shouldn't be tried again in London.

Quite right. Exhaustion of specialist materials, such as Rare Earth elements will soon put a big crimp in plans for vehicles based around large rechargeable batteries.

But the technology for modern trolleybuses has come a long way in the last 50 years. For example built-in GPS, short distance travel off-wire, computerised rerailing and computerised steering at dedicated bus stops. Overhead wires (rails really) can be closer spaced and less intrusive than the old types. And once you accept that new high-tech masts for the overhead structures are cheaper overall than trying to re-purpose existing street furniture deployment can move ahead quickly and cheaply. The problem is that they are a wee bit too service oriented rather than profit oriented.

[February29]

Originally Posted by dronkula

And, with the fiasco of the Bendybuses/Routemasters I doubt any bus company would willingly change to using Hybrids before they were forced to do it

All new London buses in few years time are to be hybrids, or more apt, electric buses as the wheels are driven by electric motors with a engine charger. The charging engine is only a car sized 1900cc, not the massive noisy lumps they have now.

This should be the case in all British cities. The same with new taxis and utility and delivery vehicles.

[February29]

Originally Posted by blahblah

Don't believe the hype. Hybrids are not all they're cracked up to be.

The real world MPG of these things is nowhere near what the manufacturer's claim, and that's before you take into account the increased CO2 emissions from mining the lithium from the batteries, and shipping the vehicles here from Japan.

A news story recently stated that the world's 10 biggest ships emit more co2 than every car on the planet combined for example.

------------------

An Auto Express Columnist has been getting real world MPG of 60mpg from a Volvo Diesel with improved aerodynamics, regenerative braking, stop/start technlolgy and solar powered aircon.

Volvo V50 DrivE

the diesel engine is a bit clattery, More noise.

Have you a link for the ships?

A new Prius in the city will get 70mpg. Not only that it is wonderful to drive and quiet. The Chevy Colt will get 60mog running off the IC engine. It will have 40 miles range on batteries - enough for a commute. The cost of the recharge from the grid is buttons to buying petrol. Diesels are for tractors.

BMW went into the stop-start thing and are saying they have brake regen when in fact it is just an electric clutch on an alternator - it only charges when braking or slowing down, not when producing power to run the wheels. They claw back energy by having an electric cooling pump. They are behind in hybrid technology and are trying to convince people that tarting about with an engine makes it eco and hybrid of some sort.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...troduces_.html

"BMW is now using new electrical coolant pumps in its straight-six IC engines. The electrical pumps operating exactly - and only - when required, meaning that they develop their maximum output and performance only at high and very high speeds."

Using an electric water pump means the pump can be at full speed cooling the engine when a car is in a traffic jam on very hot day with the a/c on. A mechanical water pump may not be pumping the water around fast enough to cool the hot spots in the engine, leading to excessive wear. An electric water pump and fully synthetic oil would improve engine cooling and eliminate the need for an oil cooler in many models of engine/car - and no flexible rubber oil lines to burst and right-off your engine.

BMW's charging system that only charges when the engine is on over-run or braking. The alternator is disconnected via a beefy clutch when the engine is powering the car. The same idea could be applied to an a/c compressor, and when running around a town/city the mpg must clearly rise as the a/c, like the alternator, only runs when on engine over-run or braking. Of course an override switch for the a/c must be on the dash. Fuel consumption must rise substantially implementing these two simple measures.

Then put in electric power steering and fuel consumption matters are even better again.

The fan belts for the water pump and power steering can be eliminated. Also using an electric a/c compressor will make matter better too and again another fan belt eliminated. None of this is rocket science and can be implemented immediately in all cars. But put in a supercapacitor and the charge the alternator produces on braking or engine over-run is mainly clawed back - calling it regen braking is pushing it. In short, have all engine ancillaries electric and use a supercapacitor. Then mpg and reliability of an engine will then rise. All playing around the edges when they should be looking into full EVs and hybrids.

[staticmeltdown]

Originally Posted by February29

All new London buses in few years time are to be hybrids, or more apt, electric buses as the wheels are driven by electric motors with a engine charger. The charging engine is only a car sized 1900cc, not the massive noisy lumps they have now.

This should be the case in all British cities. The same with new taxis and utility and delivery vehicles.

Seems little chance of that outside London under our deregulated system - in Manchester we use second hand buses from Hong Kong and Kenya on some routes, pumping out billowing smokey clouds. Ironically I'm not sure privatised public transport companies have any interest in the environment whatsoever, beyond using it as a marketing opportunity.

[February29]

Originally Posted by staticmeltdown

Seems little chance of that outside London under our deregulated system - in Manchester we use second hand buses from Hong Kong and Kenya on some routes, pumping out billowing smokey clouds. Ironically I'm not sure privatised public transport companies have any interest in the environment whatsoever, beyond using it as a marketing opportunity.

The transport bodies can force them. TfL (the mayor Livingstone at the time) made the decision.

[dronkula]

Outside of London the councils have far FAR less power than TfL has. In Bristol, for example (where I am now) First Group pretty much has the monopoly on public transport (buses and trains) and gets away with whatever it wants (stopping routes suddenly, putting up fares, using whatever buses it feels like).

Like I said earlier, no bus company will willingly switch to Hybrids because that'll be a big investment and there's no guarantee that after an election, someone else will get into power who wont agree with them. The buses in London are changing *because* TfL are forcing them to change over.

[staticmeltdown]

Originally Posted by February29

The transport bodies can force them. TfL (the mayor Livingstone at the time) made the decision.

As Dronkula says, only London has power over bus operators. Elsewhere councils / PTEs can't force bus operators to do anything unless it's a subsidised route.