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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:29 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by RolexAL View Post
@Pellazg
Fjala "At" ..ne shqiperi perdoret rregullisht ne te foluren e perditshme.
ehh dardanet e sodit e kan harru edhe gjuhen e vet
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #162
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Jo vetem i pushtuari huazon fjale nga pushtuesi...ndodh edhe e kunderta.Psh..fjala "Adria-tik" nuk eshte fjale latine ,por Ilire.Adria/Adur=Water.Nuk eshte rastesi qe vetem Iliret/Arberit/Shqiptaret ishin/jane i vetmi popull qe e perdornin/perdorin emrin "Adriatik" per emer njeriu,Latinet nuk e benin.Bashke me te edhe qindra fjale te tjera Ilire qe perdoreshin ne fjalorin Latin.
great post shoki
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #163
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Default The so-called Latin loans in Albanian
I believe many of the so called Latin loans in Albanian are not Latin loans. I think sometimes many linguists try to go for the easy answer. If an irregular sound change can’t be explained by some conventional sound law, then it must be a loan. As we know, the linguistic situation in the ancient Illyrian lands was much more complicated than today. Albanian has always had hard to explain sound changes and irregular correspondences.

The simpler explanation is that these irregular sound correspondences are due to interdialectal borrowing in ancient to early Medieval times between the Illyrian dialects. Since Illyria was a large territory, the diversity of sound changes would have been vast. Look at Albanian today, there is a good amount of variety. If we take the speakers who speak a dialect and the standard, they would have a large variety of variation in their speech.

Let us look at a few so-called Latin loans.

qen from Latin canis
qind from Latin centum
kalė from Latin caballus
nip from Latin nepōs
peshk from Latin piscis
mollė from Latin mālum
myshk from Latin muscus
frashėr/n from Latin fraxinus


The Albanian words qen, shakė, and samė all share the root k’won-. The reason for three different outcomes initially is due to different dialects in Old Albanian (Late Illyrian). Besides Illyrian “can” better shows the origins of Albanian qen than Latin canis!

Both Albanian nip and mbesė are from the same PIE root, again different dialects.

Frashėr/n is one I assumed as for sure a Latin loan, due to PIE *bh- going to f in Latin, but then I realized that in Venetic PIE *bh- also goes to f as well! This is likely a Northern Illyrian word in the Albanian lexicon.

This is just a taste of the so-called Latin loans in Albanian. Of course Albanian has borrowed some words from Latin (especially those related to the Roman Catholic Church), but not the crazy amount some claim. It just irks me to see lazy linguists. lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by bilderberg View Post
Jay I want your opinion about certain words in Venetian Dialect (northeast Italy), that left me really concern and stunned the first time that I heard those words pronounced by an italian friend of mine fom the region of Veneto.

The first is : Carega (venetian dialect) that in albanian lang. corrisponds to Karrige (pronounced carriche)= chair;

2) Goto (venetian dialect)= Got= Glass

3) Tavoin (venetian dialect)= Tavolin= Table
4) Pģron (venetian dialect)= Piron = Fork
5) Fioi = Femi = children (to note that in italian children= bambini)
6) Barba = Babgjysh = Granfather (in italian granfather= nonno)
7) Bisa = Bisha = Grass Snake

etc etc i do not remember them all.




Albanian fėmijė could be a Venetic as PIE *dh goes to f in Venetic and Latin. It almost seems like Venetic is a transitional dialect zone between Illyrian and Italic. This could explain some of the "f" words in Albanian. Albanian words with f- would mostly have to be Venetic, except for some odd cases of ft- or -f words which the f does not come from PIE dh. Gjysh is an IE root, but the baba is likely what we call a nursery word. Any parent words like mama, nana, tata, dada, papa, baba are nursery words. The IE roots for mother and father eventually go back to nursery words in their base root. Bishė looks promising. Piron is likely a Byzantine word as fork is a rather culturally sophisticated word. Piron is a bit too identical for such a specific term. The words for glass and table are also rather a "modern" kind of word that can be borrowed (either way).

So why do we have to look at Latin, for many Albanian words we can just look at the actual Illyrian languages/dialects of Ancient Albania.


The similarities betwen Albanian and Latin are so big that gives an impression we are talking about the same language, despite the big historical gap-time, and these apply for many basic words, which means a common origin. I don't find this orignin to the PIE words though.


amic-us-mik
piscis, -is -peshku
ursus, -ariu
canis, -is - qeni
gallus, -i - gjeli
corvus, -i - korbi
flumen, -inis - lumi
lacus, -us - liqeni
argentum, -i - argjenti
aurum, -i - ari
leo, leonis - luani
dux, ducis (m) - duka
lex, legis - ligji
nox, noctis -nata
pax, pacis - paqe
castellum -keshtjelle
cantare - kendoj
beautus - i bekuar
bestia-ae - bishe
centum - 100
civitas-atis - qytet
dies -ei -.dita
digitus-i - gishti
divus-i - divi
facies - ei, - faqe
fama-ae, - fame
femina-ae - femer
gens-gentis- gjinia
genus-eris-gjinia, ne kuptim familja
luas, laudis- lavdim
legere, lego, legi , lecktum -lexoj
liber-bri - libri
mater,matris -moter
mens,mentis-mendja
mensis, is - muaji
mille - 1000
mors, mortis -mort
nonus,- i nenti
parentes , parentum -prinder
pax, pacis, -paqe
placere,placeo 2, placui, placitum: pelqej
populus,populi - populli
postea -pastaj,
potestas,-atis- pushtet
pro, - per,
quattuor,- kater
regio, onis -regjion
saeculum -shekulli
saepe - shpesh
scientia, ae - shkenca
scribere,scribo 3, scripsi, scriptum - shkruaj
septem- shtate
societas, tatis - shoqeri
socius, i - shok
sperare, spero 1, speravi, speratum- shpresoj
spiritus,us-shpirti
summa, ae - shuma,
talis,e - i tille
tres, tres, tria -3
tristis,-e, - tirshtuar ( kuptimi i pare eshte i deshpruar )
turpis,e - turpi
veritas,veritatis - e verteta
victoria,ae -fitore
voluntas,tis - vullnet
peccare - mekatoj
merito - merite
fatalis: - fat
adoriri - adhuroj
nepos: - nip
virtutess - virtut
laudare - lavdoj
damni= - dam
damnosus - i, e damshme...

Lets look at one of these words, flumen, _inis - lum= river. Why does Albanian need to borrow the word river from Latin?
lum is a cvc structure , the most primitive one(beside cv & c), and in Albanian it comes from the verb luj=move, it makes complete sense since the river is a water in continious movement. So it's neither Latin loan nor PIE origin. It's simply an Albanian word since its creation(either divine or natyralistic).


http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?p=692924
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:33 PM   #164
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It's very possible that Illyrian and Latin +maybe Greek share same root-----Paleo-Balcanic language perhaps?
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:35 PM   #165
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Jo vetem i pushtuari huazon fjale nga pushtuesi...ndodh edhe e kunderta.Psh..fjala "Adria-tik" nuk eshte fjale latine ,por Ilire.Adria/Adur=Water.Nuk eshte rastesi qe vetem Iliret/Arberit/Shqiptaret ishin/jane i vetmi popull qe e perdornin/perdorin emrin "Adriatik" per emer njeriu,Latinet nuk e benin.Bashke me te edhe qindra fjale te tjera Ilire qe perdoreshin ne fjalorin Latin.
Po, por ktu nuk eshte rasti ashtu. Gjuha shqipe eshte shum e ndikuar nga latinishtja, dhe jo e kunderta.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #166
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Huti, you are on a fishing expedition here, its generally accepted that Albanian is heavily affected by Latin. I can post you countless of academic studies confirming this.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:43 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by RolexAL View Post
@Pellazg
Fjala "At" ..ne shqiperi perdoret rregullisht ne te foluren e perditshme.
Sipas te gjitha gjasave, prejardhja e saj eshte nga reduktimi i fjales onomatopeike ta-ta, qe ne natyre perfaqsohet nga belbezimi i femijes, njesoj si fjala ba-ba.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #168
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Huti, you are on a fishing expedition here, its generally accepted that Albanian is heavily affected by Latin. I can post you countless of academic studies confirming this.
nevertheless me right or wrong, the fact remains that Latin is a mosaic of different languages present at the time----among them Epiro-Illyrian ones.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #169
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nevertheless me right or wrong, the fact remains that Latin is a mosaic of different languages present at the time----among them Epiro-Illyrian ones.
You cant argue like that, of course there are influences. But claiming Albanian have created Latin is wrong, since if that would be the case, Albanian would belong to the same language-group. How can different language create a language and then not being even close related? or belong to the same branch?
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:42 PM   #170
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You cant argue like that, of course there are influences. But claiming Albanian have created Latin is wrong, since if that would be the case, Albanian would belong to the same language-group. How can different language create a language and then not being even close related? or belong to the same branch?
Ushtari cfar je duke folur??? latinishtja dhe shqipja jane te dyja gjuhe te te njejtit grup, atij indo-evropian... vetem se shqipja eshte me e vjeter eshte me e vjetra nga te gjitha gjuhet indoevropiane...
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:53 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ushtari View Post
You cant argue like that, of course there are influences. But claiming Albanian have created Latin is wrong, since if that would be the case, Albanian would belong to the same language-group. How can different language create a language and then not being even close related? or belong to the same branch?
"Qe dhe nese shqipja ka huazuar nga latinishtja, kjo ka ndodhur sepse latinishtja eshte nje gjuhe kulture, prandaj dhe leksiku i mundshem i huazuar eshte nga stoku i termave te zhvillimit.

Nga ana tjeter, latinishtja duke qene nje gjuhe kulture, shfaqet ne formen qe ka sot me nje leksik te pasur, jo si zhvillim spontan vernakular, POR E KRIJUAR NE KRYE TE HERES PER QELLIME LITURGJIE dhe me vone e pasuruar, ashtu sic rriten gjuhet e kultures.

Sigurisht, qe ajo nuk i krijua nga hici, por nga nje gjuhe e folur, qe une mendoj qe ka qene nje dialekt i shqipes se vjeter, apo nje idiome e ngjashme me te. Ne kete pikepamje, eshte shqipja ajo qe i ka huajtuar latinishtes termat baze, per ti marre ato shpeshhere mbrapsh, me trajta latine te perpunuara, duke krijuar nje imazh te rreme, si huazime te mirrefillta."


Ky eshte nje citim nga nje antar te nje forumi sa i perket gjuhes.

Te lutem kupto qe gjuha latine as qe mund te konsiderohet "gjuhe" sepse eshte e krijuar nga njeriu dhe jo nga nje popull ose zhvilluar nga aj.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #172
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Ska kurfar studime per ket. Romaket e kan pushtu ilirin, dhe jo e kunderta.
ka studime qe vertetojne shtrirjen e kultures ilire deri ne sardenja te italise dhe deri ne austri.. ashtu sic ka edhe deshmi nga historian antik mbi origjinen ilire te fiseve lindore te gadishulit apenin, duke filluar qe nga mesapet e Japiget e deri te Venetete dhe Liguret..




The history of mankind;
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #173
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Ushtari cfar je duke folur??? latinishtja dhe shqipja jane te dyja gjuhe te te njejtit grup, atij indo-evropian... vetem se shqipja eshte me e vjeter eshte me e vjetra nga te gjitha gjuhet indoevropiane...
Nuk e pata fjal per indo-europiane

Shqipja eshte gjuh "Satem", kurse Latinishtja eshte gjuh "Centum".
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:14 PM   #174
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atehere edhe shqipja me ilirishten jane te gruoppeve te ndryshme... keto jane thjeshte teori te bera nga pseudo filolog qe kane mesur 50 fjale ne shqip dhe fillojne e i krahasojne me gjuhet e tjera dhe duke u bazuar ne paradigma te formuluara shekuj me pare dalin me teorite e tyre handikapate...
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:22 PM   #175
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Nuk e pata fjal per indo-europiane

Shqipja eshte gjuh "Satem", kurse Latinishtja eshte gjuh "Centum".
Hej pse nuk kunder argumenton ne gjerat qe thojm po vetem flet si motorr gjonat qe i ke lexu ne Wikipedia ose ndonje faqe sllavo-greke?
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #176
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atehere edhe shqipja me ilirishten jane te gruoppeve te ndryshme... keto jane thjeshte teori te bera nga pseudo filolog qe kane mesur 50 fjale ne shqip dhe fillojne e i krahasojne me gjuhet e tjera dhe duke u bazuar ne paradigma te formuluara shekuj me pare dalin me teorite e tyre handikapate...
"Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Iranian and Latin for 'a hundred'.) Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too - in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all."
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #177
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"Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Iranian and Latin for 'a hundred'.) Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too - in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all."
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
ProMacedonia, haha e kam dit, me fal po keto nuk i lexoj.

Edhe une para disa vitesh kam qen sikur ti, i bindur qe gjithqka qka shkruhet per gjuhen shqipe tek sllavet eshte e vertet po pastaj e vrejta qe isha gabim.

Edhe nje gje mund ta them qe sllavet jan profesionalist per falsifikimin e historis saqe edhe neve na duket kajher e vertet. Jan manipulues te pares dore!
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:36 PM   #178
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ProMacedonia, haha e kam dit, me fal po keto nuk i lexoj.

Edhe une para disa vitesh kam qen sikur ti, i bindur qe gjithqka qka shkruhet per gjuhen shqipe tek sllavet eshte e vertet po pastaj e vrejta qe isha gabim.

Edhe nje gje mund ta them qe sllavet jan profesionalist per falsifikimin e historis saqe edhe neve na duket kajher e vertet. Jan manipulues te pares dore!
O ti lop

kto jan shkrimet e Noel malcolm, nje historian. Nese e kishe lexu texin mir e kishe pa qe aj shkruajti ne favor te shqiptarve, dmth aj e spjegoj qe Ilirishtja ishte gjuh Satem, sikur shqipja e sotme
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:44 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ushtari View Post
"Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Iranian and Latin for 'a hundred'.) Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too - in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all."
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
e para punes ne Veneto ka zbulime arkiologjike qe deshmojne prejardhjen ilire te banorve para se te latinizoheshin..
E dyta sic ta thashe jane thjeshte teori te bere nga psudo linguiste qe lexojne ndonje libere apo studiojne ne fakultete nje gjuhe dhe kujtojne sikur e njohin ate.... po edhe nje shqiptare nuk e njehe gjuhen evete une per vete nuk i njohe dialektete, akoma me shume ato geg..
Gjithsesi ne fillim keta "shkenctare i ndanin gjuhet indoevropiane ne dy gruppe cemtum e satem, centum me shtrirje ne perendim dhe satem ne lindje... me kalimin e kohes krjte papritur zbuluan ne zonat veriore te kines dy gjuhe indoevropiane te zhdukura tashme qe te dyja centium dhe ky zbulim hodhi poshte teorine e meparshme.. Dhe normalishte shkenctaret tane te dashur dolen me nje tori tjeter: te gjitha gjuhet indoevropiane ne fillim kane qene centium pastaj disa prej ture jane bere satem... Hajde meri vesh keta..
Tashi per sa i per perket shqipes, konsiderohet satem por nga ana tjeter ka disa veti dhe karateristika qe asnje gjuhe satem nuk i ka... keto veti dhe karakteristika qe e vecojne shqipen jane ato veti dhe karakteristika qe nder te tjera identifikojne grupin centum
E mer veshe cfar lemshi kane krijuar psuodo filologete dhe linguistat e dashur evropian...
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Old April 4th, 2011, 11:49 PM   #180
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O ti lop

kto jan shkrimet e Noel malcolm, nje historian. Nese e kishe lexu texin mir e kishe pa qe aj shkruajti ne favor te shqiptarve, dmth aj e spjegoj qe Ilirishtja ishte gjuh Satem, sikur shqipja e sotme
Noel Malkom per shembull e degjova kohe me pare ne nje interviste tek prezantonte nje liber te tij me perkthime te disa poezive te Llazgush Poradecite disa poetve te tjere Shqiptar dhe nder te tjera thoshte qe kishte veshtiresi te kuptonte Fishten...
Atehere cfar studione ky albanolog shqipen letrare
Shqipja e vertete eshte te dialektete dhe jo te gjuha letrare...
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The mask I wear is one
Those who speak know nothing
And find out to their cost
Like those who curse their luck in too many places
And those who fear are lost
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