daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:38 AM   #1
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

BRT: fare-paid loading, or not - that is the question

BRT: fare-paid all-door loading, or not - that is the question

For those few of you who have experienced:
  • the full-package BRTs (busways, fare-paid stations with all-door level boarding. etc)
and
  • the halfway-to-BRT express busses with busways and bus stops (ie. you still queue get on the bus and pay at a farebox on the bus)


What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Personally I'm strongly in favour of the first, but am stumped as to why it hasn't really happened in North America - it seems faster, allows faster access for the disabled, etc)... Most existing systems considerd "BRT" in North America seem to have glorified bus stops with fare-collection on the bus. It's so much slower than what I've seen elsewhere....and I don't get why they chose to not use proper stations.

Bus transit only folks, not looking to wade into any other discussions.

Last edited by adrimm; April 3rd, 2007 at 05:30 AM.
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:55 AM   #2
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Full-featured BRT has happened in Los Angeles with the Orange Line:











The success of the Orange Line can be gauged by the amount of venom that the Light Rail Now organization has been spitting at it:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt_2006-10a.htm

The sad truth is that many cities are now claiming bus systems to be BRT that have little in common with the Orange Line other than buses with fancy paint jobs.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:08 AM   #3
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Excuse me! The original question regarded off-vehicle fare payment. Yes, that is the only way to go! One of the worst parts of any bus ride is fumbling around for change while holding up a line of people at the door. I've experienced the same issue on the light rail Green Line in Boston. Back when I lived in Boston, fare payment on the light rail lines was at the station entrance in the downtown subway but was onboard the vehicles along the above ground outer ends of the system.

The ultimate solution is the use of proximity cards such as the Octopus Card system used in Hong Kong.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card

With proximity cards, it doesn't matter so much whether the fare is collected onboard the vehicle or at the station.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:25 AM   #4
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Thanks for your feedback Christine..

I don't know much about the Orange Line at all and am eager to learn about it how has it gone over with the public.

How are fares regulated? Are there random on-board spot checks to make sure people getting on have valid passes?
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:29 AM   #5
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Excuse me! The original question regarded off-vehicle fare payment. Yes, that is the only way to go!

The ultimate solution is the use of proximity cards such as the Octopus Card system used in Hong Kong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card
With proximity cards, it doesn't matter so much whether the fare is collected onboard the vehicle or at the station.


How does the proximity card work?

Last edited by adrimm; April 3rd, 2007 at 05:29 AM. Reason: formatting
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 09:14 AM   #6
Skybean
天豆
 
Skybean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,937
Likes (Received): 271

You prepay a cash denomination for fare onto the Octopus Card. To pay for fare you simply bring the card in close proximity to a card reader. You do not even need to take the card out of your pocket / purse / wallet. As you wave the card above the reader, it will automatically deduct the fare. The card is totally refillable. (In HK it can often be used instead of cash to purchase things such as food items, movie tickets, parking, etc.)

__________________
My Photos」 ● Hong Kong 1|2|3 ● Macau 1 ● London 1 ● New York City 1
Photo Threads」 ● Flying Over Hong KongCity Life Series」 ● Hong KongShanghaiSeoulTokyo
Skybean no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 04:52 PM   #7
FallenGuard
Registered User
 
FallenGuard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 107
Likes (Received): 0

The Danger with these Electronic Cards is that they make you traceable. I don't know how it is in Japan, but here, i'd rather not have such a system while Politicians drool over new ways to "catch terrorists" i.e. snoop in their Citizens Lives again.

This being said, I have to live with the Second System - usually once per week some old Lady holds up the whole Bus because she's fumbling for her spare Money and counting every cent. Bus Drivers often get so annoyed that they tell her to just get on Board and forget about the Fee.
FallenGuard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:57 PM   #8
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,746

In Paris those informations are deleted all the 48 hours.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2007, 10:43 PM   #9
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 588
Likes (Received): 97

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
In Paris those informations are deleted all the 48 hours.

Gullible.




The reason why you don't often find it is because it adds quite a bit of expense to make a secure station so that people can't sneak in without paying. The whole point of BRT is for cost savings - building full stations adds a significant part of the cost. As Greg-Christine pointed out, there are some light rail lines that use on board payment. It does slow things down sometimes, but it also simplifies things greatly.

We are seeing more and more electronic card access systems. But you still have to get a card. Works fine if everyone who rides your system is a regular rider, but vending machines are fraught with security issues, maintenance, problems with usage, susceptibility to vandalism, etc. All of these has some major negative effects to the image of public transit. Lastly, there is that ever present issue of identityespecially with the growing concern over customer tracking and sharing of personal data.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2007, 03:00 AM   #10
Richard Mlynarik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Excuse me! The original question regarded off-vehicle fare payment. Yes, that is the only way to go![...]
That's right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The ultimate solution is the use of proximity cards such as the Octopus Card system used in Hong Kong.
That's completely wrong.

Outside of truly crush-loaded metros (where sufficiently effective fare inspection is a practical impossibility,
and where limited access points make expensive fixed fare barriers of possible value),
the "ultimate" system -- where total system cost of operation is accurately accounted
and where a priority is given to efficient movement of vehicles and passengers --
is barrier-free, random-inspection, proof-of-payment with 100% off-vehicle ticket sales,
combined with a tariff which encourages a very large fraction of riders to use season tickets.

Note that also increases bus operational efficiency by not causing any boarding/alighting
delay to tag smartcards, while not involving expensive and intrusive gated-off fare-paid "stations" on urban streets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
With proximity cards, it doesn't matter so much whether the fare is collected onboard the vehicle or at the station.
The primary beneficiary of smartcard systems are the people selling smartcard systems.

Of note is that Switzerland -- a country with some record of success in efficient transportation operation
-- evaluated and then abandoned a smartcard ticketing system a few years ago
because it was determined that it provided a negative return on investment.
Richard Mlynarik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2007, 04:39 AM   #11
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenGuard View Post
- usually once per week some old Lady holds up the whole Bus because she's fumbling for her spare Money and counting every cent. Bus Drivers often get so annoyed that they tell her to just get on Board and forget about the Fee.

Ugh same here - We have tons of seniors around, so part of why I'd give anything to have fare-paid loading, while they're at it put the station on a platform - those same seniors are so often painfully slow getting up the step into the bus!
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2007, 04:50 AM   #12
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
Gullible.

The reason why you don't often find it is because it adds quite a bit of expense to make a secure station so that people can't sneak in without paying. The whole point of BRT is for cost savings - building full stations adds a significant part of the cost. As Greg-Christine pointed out, there are some light rail lines that use on board payment. It does slow things down sometimes, but it also simplifies things greatly.

We are seeing more and more electronic card access systems. But you still have to get a card. Works fine if everyone who rides your system is a regular rider, but vending machines are fraught with security issues, maintenance, problems with usage, susceptibility to vandalism, etc. All of these has some major negative effects to the image of public transit. Lastly, there is that ever present issue of identityespecially with the growing concern over customer tracking and sharing of personal data.
Ok so maybe e-cards isn't the way to go... but regardless of whether you stick it on the bus or at a station, you still need a farebox... do rails and turnstiles really add that much to the cost of a station? I can see them costing maybe 3x.... which when you are dealing with limited stations (ie BRT doesn't stop every block) doesn't seem to bad (ie one-time capital cost) ans possibly make or break the experience for riders by getting on the system that much faster (big deal when you've got 20 people queuing for one bus with gran holding everyone up).

In some systems payment is on the honours system and there are staff who randomly check to see that passengers have actually purchased their fare...
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2007, 01:15 AM   #13
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 588
Likes (Received): 97

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
Ugh same here - We have tons of seniors around, so part of why I'd give anything to have fare-paid loading, while they're at it put the station on a platform - those same seniors are so often painfully slow getting up the step into the bus!
What makes you think that by using a smart card or any kind of system like that is going to speed things up? If they can't figure out their change, they sure as heck aren't going to figure out using some convoluted card system - you will have everyone tied up (*cough*Boston*cough*). And half of those people who are not getting their change ready are just trying to beat the system - and they will pull the same thing with not finding their card, and not getting their card to work.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2007, 04:04 AM   #14
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

I'd like to make a few comments regarding proximity cards:

1. The Washington Metro is presently transitioning from the use of magnetic strip cards for fare payment to proximity cards. I recently purchased my first proximity card at a Metro station because the parking garages now require the proximity cards for payment. My understanding is that the Washington bus system will use the same proximity cards. I believe this is the first time that the Metro and the buses will have a common fare payment system.



2. I purchased my Washington Metro proximity card using cash. It is not linked to a credit card or bank account. It does not contain any personal identification information.

3. The proximity cards only have to be held within about an inch of the sensor in order to deduct the fare. It is not even necessary to take them out of your wallet as you can just waive your wallet past the sensor. There should be no doubt that this is quicker than taking change out of your wallet to pay a transit fare. The proximity cards are even faster to use than the magnetic strip cards that previously were the only fare payment system used on the Washington Metro.

4. Even with the Octopus Cards used in Hong Kong, there is an option to purchase an "On-Loan" Octopus Card, which carries no personal identification information. There are also "Personalized" Octopus Cards that can carry a photo of the owner and can be used as an identification card. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card >

5. The Octopus Card system in Hong Kong has gone well beyond being just a transit payment system. It can be used as a payment card for parking, a payment card for convenience stores, a library card, or an access card for secure buildings. According to the Wikipedia article, 95% of the population of Hong Kong now uses them.

6. In the United States, I now see oil companies switching their gasoline credit cards to proximity cards. Many gas pumps now are equipped to read both credit cards with magnetic strips and proximity cards. (An interesting question is what happens if you waive your wallet past a proximity card sensor and your wallet contains multiple proximity cards?)

7. The one thing that bothers me about proximity cards is not the privacy issue but how "spendy" they are. By watching the coins and dollar bills disappear from your wallet, you have a good visual representation of how fast you are spending your money. You don't get any such visual representation of your diminishing wealth when using a proximity card.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2007, 04:41 AM   #15
Electrify
Registered User
 
Electrify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Markham (Thornhill), Ontario
Posts: 1,684
Likes (Received): 5

Kind of interesting, cause in the Toronto area we have both. The TTC runs the second one you mentioned along corridors where they plan on building future subway lines, while York Region runs the first (though neither have their own lane ways). YRT's service is MUCH better than the TTC's. Having to make all the passengers pay on the bus really does slow down the service. In fact, it probably isn't fair to refer to TTC Rocket routes as "BRT" and more just express buses, since their stops nor the buses themselves are no different than any other TTC route.

However, off-bus payment can have its disadvantages as well. Many times passengers are too technically illiterate to figure out how to use the fare machines (you'd be surprised how many people can't seem to read the sign saying "Please press screen to start"), and if you aren't using tickets or passes then you can miss your bus while the fare machine is printing your fare receipt (required in case an inspector wants to make sure you have paid). Also, here in York Region we currently put our tickets inside a "ticket validator" which prints off the time you paid your fare. Unfortunately these machines regularly have problems and sometimes do not print the time at all, and a noob to BRT may not realize you have to validate your ticket. Granted these ticket issues could be resolved if they switched to a card system that is shown above.

Despite its flaws, off bus payment is still the way to go.

Last edited by Electrify; April 5th, 2007 at 05:09 AM.
Electrify no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2007, 09:41 PM   #16
busdriver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 30
Likes (Received): 2

Your best case study would be in central London, where both methods of fare collection are used. Trunk lines use off-bus ticketing/smartcard validation method with articulated, multiple door buses, while other lines use the more familiar pay/validate on-board with driver method.

My personal observations finds that the proof of payment buses doesnt really shave all that much off stop times. Although the bottleneck at the front is gone, the lack of manuvering space inside the bus and the distance between doors means getting on/off is still a time consuming process. On the other hand, the number of fare dodgers have certainly increased dramatically to the point where these bus lines are considered "free" by many.

Last edited by busdriver; April 5th, 2007 at 09:52 PM.
busdriver no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2007, 05:03 AM   #17
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
What makes you think that by using a smart card or any kind of system like that is going to speed things up? If they can't figure out their change, they sure as heck aren't going to figure out using some convoluted card system - you will have everyone tied up (*cough*Boston*cough*). And half of those people who are not getting their change ready are just trying to beat the system - and they will pull the same thing with not finding their card, and not getting their card to work.
Well I'm not saying a card is *the* specific answer - I'm happy with any solution that gets people to pay *before* they get on the bus so that there can be all-door-loading.

It might be a smart card or it might be a station with a turnstile...

I've seen all-door loading onto BRT buses (articulated buses with 3 or 4 sets of doors), and it seem much much faster than forcing everyone to queue into one door. Oh and the loading platforms are level with the bus height - it's like stepping into the Tube or a metro, except that once you pull away it is clear that you are on a giant bus.

Last edited by adrimm; April 11th, 2007 at 05:08 AM. Reason: clarification
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 04:33 AM   #18
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 588
Likes (Received): 97

But by the time you make a station that is secure, you will have eaten away at most of BRT's cost advantage. And that's the real point to a BRT - the cost.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 06:33 AM   #19
Electrify
Registered User
 
Electrify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Markham (Thornhill), Ontario
Posts: 1,684
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
But by the time you make a station that is secure, you will have eaten away at most of BRT's cost advantage. And that's the real point to a BRT - the cost.
In York Region, we have security hop on and off the buses that issue fines for people who have not paid their fare. I always pay, though there is always a part of me which is afraid my ticket didn't validate properly (which happened once, fortunately I didn't run into a security guard that day) or that it fell out of my pocket or got misplaced, etc.
Electrify no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2007, 08:04 AM   #20
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
But by the time you make a station that is secure, you will have eaten away at most of BRT's cost advantage. And that's the real point to a BRT - the cost.
I'm assuming you mean cost advantage over something like an LRT? My understanding is that once you get into LRT-land, the cars and track are momentously expensive, stations are only a part of the expense equation, and as Electrify points out they don't need to be secure.

In North America it seems that getting many people to use mass-transit (and lower their emmisions, help clear congestion) is basically a competition between how the benefits and costs of SOV with the benefits and costs of mass-transit, as they borne by individual users (time, cost, ease of use). BRT. It's not like most people don't have cars (in Canada and the US).

What about the benefits of a system that attracts more riders and gets better use - the same system that contributes to clearing the air and reducing congestion? At what point does a little more expendiure on capital infrastructure (still not to the point of LRT) become warranted becasue it makes using the system that much more attractive to riders?

IMHO, The faster you can make it work (between loading times, triggered lights, attactive stations), the more attractive it will be to someone who might just as easily hop in their vehicle.
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
brt, bus rapid transit, public transport, urban transport

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium