daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 24th, 2009, 05:12 PM   #201
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Let's get this straight. I am pro-TRANSIT. And that means advocating technologies that work, and are sustainable. That means Bus and rail technologies.
You really have a serious hatred for rail technology. You go to such lengths to start a LRT vs BRT, Bus vs. Rail argument at every opportunity. It's nuts. You talk about rail advocates being offended when their mode of choice is being criticized. It seems to me, that you are just a guilty as being offensive, except you take offense when ONE system is criticized, or when people call out the false claims that advocates of monorails, and PRT like to expouse.

Also, please notice, that not once did I mention LRT, or criticize BRT as a mode. This is a typical tactic of Mr. Christine to generalize agruments, criticism, and to post misleading stats. If Mr. Christine gets offended by criticism one of transit system, I can only imagine how he reacts to criticism of his beloved highways, and monorail amusement park circulator systems

Last edited by JustinB; April 24th, 2009 at 08:20 PM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 25th, 2009, 04:15 AM   #202
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

The following video gives an idea of why the accident rate for the Blue Line LRT in Los Angeles is so high.



Any criticism of the safety record of the Delhi BRT line while defending the safety record of the Blue Line is at best disingenuous.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2009, 07:54 AM   #203
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Here is a video of the Seattle BRT/LRT tunnel with Buses, and LRT operating safely.



Contrary to what Mr. Christine tries to prove, there is no competition between BRT, and LRT, and there should be none.

Sorry Mr. Christine. It is a bit disingenous to compare a BRT line that was poorly planned, and chaotic when it opened last year, to an LRT line, where most of the deaths could have been prevented, if the victims obeyed the law. I do not know why you keep on comparing the Blue line to every BRT line that is criticized. I have heard this argument from you before. You must have little respect for the intelligence of members, if you think posting some numbers somehow proves your point. At least assume people will look into the numbers.

Again, I know you hate LRT. You are very anti-rail, and pro-highway. Sorry if I offended you.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #204
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

There has been a lot of debate in Seattle regarding the safety of this arrangement. The coexistence of buses and light rail trains in the transit tunnel will not be permanent. The buses will be booted once the light rail line is extended to the University of Washington.

The point of my previous posts was the hypocrisy of someone who comes into a BRT forum to criticize the safety of the Delhi BRT line and then defends the poor safety record of the light rail Blue Line in Los Angeles. On just about any thread in this forum concerning BRT, PRT, monorail, or maglev, the same light rail supporters can be seen expressing their bigotry against any system that doesn't have steel wheels.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2009, 05:16 PM   #205
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

The point you made, is that you have a serious hatred toward rail, and will use every chance to voice that hatred. No one was talking about BT vs. LRT before you deemed it necessary to post stats about a random LRT line, without properly looking at the numbers. It was you who brought up the Blue Line, and is making serious attempts to make comparisons between BRT, and LRT. You know, you really could have defended the BRTS system without talking about one LRT line, and criticizing it's advocates. Niknak did it, why can't you?

Sorry Mr. Christine. It is you who is the hypocrite. Put your hatred aside for a while, and try not not talk about LRT in a BRT thread for at least 2 posts. I doubt you can.

I wonder where you are going to attempt to steer this thread next. Just make sure not to use stats, or pictures from pro-highway sites, like you did in the Hawaii Rail thread.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #206
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

I don't hate rail. I do have a low opinion of hypocrisy. Criticizing the Delhi BRT based on its safety record and then defending the miserable safety record of the light rail Blue Line in Los Angeles is pure hypocrisy.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 03:37 PM   #207
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

*sigh*

Mr. Christine. YOU brought up the Blue Line, and I merely corrected your numbers, as they were wrong, and did not tell the whole story. Your attempt to steer the argument to a BRT vs. LRT debate, and then to peg me as some offended LRT nut has been a poor attempt at best.

The only hypocrite is you. Claiming not to hate rail, while taking every opportunity to criticize the mode. That is pure hypocrisy. A hypocrite calling me a hypocrite. Wow. Must have a low opinion of yourself.

I ask again, could you have defended the BRTS without comparing it to rail? I doubt you can.

Electric Buses sharing Tram Tunnel in Essen:



From what I understand, it is no longer in operation, as the buses were not replaced when they were retired.

Last edited by JustinB; April 26th, 2009 at 04:00 PM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 06:23 AM   #208
jamesinclair
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 320
Likes (Received): 83

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Sorry Mr. Christine. It is a bit disingenous to compare a BRT line that was poorly planned, and chaotic when it opened last year, to an LRT line, where most of the deaths could have been prevented, if the victims obeyed the law.

This is hilarious.

"When the bus crashes, its the bus's fault!"
"When the train crashes, it was the victims fault!"
jamesinclair no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 01:08 PM   #209
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

What's hilarious is the continued attempt to compare this system to a LRT line!

Yeesh!

What's with you pro-highway, anti-transit people?!
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 06:44 PM   #210
niknak
Registered User
 
niknak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,074
Likes (Received): 319

Ok...let's move on.
niknak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2009, 03:50 AM   #211
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
...
Yeesh!

What's with you pro-highway, anti-transit people?!
Defending bus rapid transit makes a person "pro-highway, anti-transit"?
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #212
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

You still have not answered if you could have defended the BRTS system without resorting to attacking rail, and it's supporters.

I am going to take your refusal to answer as a "no".

OK. I am done. I never wanted to get into a LRT vs. BRT debate. I had my opinion about the New Delhi BRTS system and I voiced it. Mr. Christine deemed it necessary to attempt to make this into a LRT vs. BRT debate, and this is not the thread for that.

Last edited by JustinB; April 28th, 2009 at 04:40 PM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2009, 09:03 PM   #213
Northsider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,522
Likes (Received): 121

With the dedicated ROW, stations, ticket machines, etc...why then BRT at all? What do you save by having a glorified bus running down a ROW in which you could throw some steel tracks on and electrify? If you are going to build a BRT to be as similar to a metro as possible, then just build a metro or LRT.

Chicago will be implementing some BRT routes...but they will fail. It's a cheap "solution" to an ever increasing problem.
Northsider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 12:42 AM   #214
jamesinclair
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 320
Likes (Received): 83

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
With the dedicated ROW, stations, ticket machines, etc...why then BRT at all? What do you save by having a glorified bus running down a ROW in which you could throw some steel tracks on and electrify? If you are going to build a BRT to be as similar to a metro as possible, then just build a metro or LRT.

Chicago will be implementing some BRT routes...but they will fail. It's a cheap "solution" to an ever increasing problem.
Tracks are very expensive. Electrification is ridiculously expensive. One disabled train can crippled the entire system, buses can just drive around each other.

In the US, trains have ridiculous safety standards that mean expensive signaling systems (ATO) and headways not better than 90 seconds. Buses can run a foot a part and use standard traffic lights and nobody blinks.

Trains cost more to make and cant be bought off the shelf, buses can
jamesinclair no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 01:04 AM   #215
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
With the dedicated ROW, stations, ticket machines, etc...why then BRT at all? What do you save by having a glorified bus running down a ROW in which you could throw some steel tracks on and electrify? If you are going to build a BRT to be as similar to a metro as possible, then just build a metro or LRT.

Chicago will be implementing some BRT routes...but they will fail. It's a cheap "solution" to an ever increasing problem.
This is one significant failing of BRT as whole. Many BRT advocates try to sell BRT as a rail-like solution at the fraction of the price. Most of the installations tend not to emulate the qualities of rail, simply because the agency believes a bus with fancy moulding, and a nicely designed sign is enough to make "rapid". A true BRT system can be just as expensive as a rail system, when implemented properly. It does not mean that BRT is a failure, but that it's advocates are prone to overselling the mode.

Oh, and Rail vehicles can be bought off the shelf.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 01:35 AM   #216
Northsider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,522
Likes (Received): 121

Quote:
Tracks are very expensive.
Up front, yes.
Quote:
Electrification is ridiculously expensive.
Yes and no. Fuel is not cheap either.
Quote:
One disabled train can crippled the entire system, buses can just drive around each other.
Depending on the system. Ideally placed switches and crossovers can avoid this easily.
Quote:
In the US, trains have ridiculous safety standards that mean expensive signaling systems (ATO) and headways not better than 90 seconds.
The potential capacity of a train outweighs the need for headways greater than 90 seconds. Also, run more buses and you need to employ more people. Manpower is one of the most expensive things an agency has to deal with.

I'm not 100% against BRT. I just don't understand it. It's a glorified bus, not a metro substitute. In my opinion, regular city bus routes should be run like BRTs...BRTs should not stand in place of metros.
Northsider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 01:56 AM   #217
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
I'm not 100% against BRT. I just don't understand it. It's a glorified bus, not a metro substitute. In my opinion, regular city bus routes should be run like BRTs...BRTs should not stand in place of metros.
Exactly.

BRT advocates love to sell BRT as a cheap alternative to rail. It's not. BRT can never, ever come close to rail in terms of capacity, and prominence, no matter how much money they pour into sites such as nbrti.org, Calstart, or Breakthrough Technologies.

Instead of trying to compete with rail, BRT advocates would do better to sell BRT as a mode that can complement rail, or where the demand does not justify rail. But advocates would prefer to compete against rail, and it has not been a successful campaign so far.

BRT IS A glorified bus, and it should be sold as such, because a glorified bus is still better than the local bus.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 02:09 AM   #218
Northsider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,522
Likes (Received): 121

I just read a few months ago that Curitiba, the bastion of BRT, now needs a metro line because the BRT cannot handle the demand.
Northsider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 03:09 AM   #219
Tiago Costa
Servir sempre!
 
Tiago Costa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 35,212

This is not entirely true. The demand is not bigger than the capacity of the system in all sections, just in the north-south corridor. In fact, there is nothing wrong with the replacement of the nort-south corridor by a metro line, because BRT is not a substitute of metro, just a mass-transit system that serves demands that are much less than the necessary for making a metro line comercially sustainable. There are demands which a BRT is viable, and there are demands which a BRT is not viable, because it can't handle. When the demand of a BRT system reaches 80% of its capacity, there must be a plan for replacing the corridor by light/medium (or even high) capacity metro.

Last edited by Tiago Costa; April 30th, 2009 at 09:35 AM.
Tiago Costa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 29th, 2009, 04:32 PM   #220
Northsider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,522
Likes (Received): 121

Exactly, which falls into my point of BRT not being a replacement or alternative to a metro line like so many BRT advocated tout.
Northsider no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
brt, bus rapid transit, public transport, urban transport

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium