daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 12th, 2009, 09:08 AM   #241
bayviews
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,535
Likes (Received): 51

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Can mass transit really work in South Florida?

Now that's a very good question.

Even Dade County's metrorail system hasn't attracted hasn't attracted as many riders many as it could or should, so it's not surprising that BRT ridership hasn't met expectations.

Although the density is actually high, the car culture still seems to dominate in South Florida.
bayviews no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 12th, 2009, 03:52 PM   #242
tampasteve
Registered User
 
tampasteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,395
Likes (Received): 258

Metrorail should attract more riders than it does, but it is really not as bad as some make it out to be. We need to look at the whole transit picture, not just the pieces. The public transit network in the Miami metro area has captured 12% of the population. 12% of the population uses public transit daily - this is a big number. This is not my rambling, that is from the US census.

Taking 20,000 people using the busway a day is a pretty good number. We can assume that most of these people would be single riders if they were in automobiles. That means we are taking about 10,000 cars off the road a day (dividing the 20,000 in half assuming that most are commuters going each way once). Or even at a lower number maybe 5,000 cars off of the road, that is a good number.

Steve
__________________
There are only two days in the year that nothing can be done. One is called Yesterday and the other is called Tomorrow. Today is the right day.
tampasteve no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2009, 11:23 PM   #243
LosAngelesMetroBoy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Baghdad/Miami/Los Angeles
Posts: 317
Likes (Received): 26

the problem with the busway has always been and will always be there are not enough buses on it. not to mention there is not enough of a feeder system to it. And most of all, it goes through a higher income area which lends itself to not be as transit friendly.
LosAngelesMetroBoy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2009, 03:42 AM   #244
thecarlost
Me auto-Bahn
 
thecarlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cerro El Morro
Posts: 4,781
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Can mass transit really work in South Florida?
Quote:
would range from $11.25 to $12.75 for travel from one end of the Busway to the other.
I don't know if this may force drivers to leave their cars at home and encourage them to hop the busline.

Politics shall play a definite roll in this. And comissioners must have an ultimate decision made upon choice analysis. Most users whould share choosing the most attractive, economical, fast, approachable transport mode. Based on what is refflected in the article, cars definitely aren't offering such conditions today. Then, why must they keep giving priority for private transportation modes? that's not helping.
thecarlost no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2009, 02:06 AM   #245
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

While it isn't exactly new - Bogota's TransMilenio got coverage in the NYTimes recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200...0BOGOTA_5.html
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2009, 05:46 AM   #246
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

AC Transit wants to have BRT, but taking out a traffic lane and making it bus-only just makes it more crowded for everyone else. There has been a proposal by Joyce Roy (who was a candidate for president of the AC Transit board in 2008) to make something like an historic streetcar using buses. Buses are in the traffic lanes and stop at stations without pulling over to the curb. And of course, cars can go around them. Much more attractive and it doesn't take a lane away from the automobiles.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2009, 09:35 AM   #247
Falubaz
Registered User
 
Falubaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Zielona Gora, Polska
Posts: 14,799
Likes (Received): 2940

Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
AC Transit wants to have BRT, but taking out a traffic lane and making it bus-only just makes it more crowded for everyone else. There has been a proposal by Joyce Roy (who was a candidate for president of the AC Transit board in 2008) to make something like an historic streetcar using buses. Buses are in the traffic lanes and stop at stations without pulling over to the curb. And of course, cars can go around them. Much more attractive and it doesn't take a lane away from the automobiles.
That's the point. It's proven in several cities all around the world, that taking out car lanes and dedicate them to mass transit makes the situation better. The harder to go somewhere bu privat car, the more ppl switch to public transport, the less traffic jams there are.
__________________
Zielona Góra - Ziemia Lubuska

₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany
Falubaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2009, 02:52 PM   #248
Yorampjuh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0


If I were in that traffic jam on the right I would immediately take the bus the next day! People are just ''forced'' to take public transport!
Yorampjuh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2009, 09:10 AM   #249
TopWatch
Roloncho!
 
TopWatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bogotá D.C.
Posts: 4,659
Likes (Received): 3134

The Video!!


Saludos!!!
TopWatch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2009, 10:15 AM   #250
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

MISC | BRT

This evening I was both amused and dissapointed reading about the debut of the SE "Bus Rapid Transit" line in Calgary.

BRT clearly has a serious identity problem in North America and it isn't helped by the rush of transit officials eagerly rebranding and re-introducing express bus service as "BRT".

Compare today's rollout in Calgary of the so-called SE "Bus Rapid Transit" rollout with the debut of the Rea Vaya BRT also held today in Johannesburg.

Which would you rather ride and what does this say about commitment to transit, or certain modes of transit - (Calgary also has the C Train). How about comfort? Would a Rea Vaya user consider the Calgary "BRT" to be BRT? What would the Calgary bus rider call the Rea Vaya?


Johannesburg



image posted by Pule on http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=752738&page=3

and

Last edited by adrimm; January 10th, 2010 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Clarify topic, cases.
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2009, 02:42 PM   #251
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

BRT in North America is a joke. It shouldn't even be considered a real transit option, in my opinion. With the exception of the OC Transpo's system, I have yet to see a system built that could be considered true BRT on this continent. The MBTA silver line is a 1 Billion joke, that provides no sort of rapid transit service. The Orange Line should have been built as LRT, since it has reached capacity already.
If you're going to build BRT, do it right, stop with the re-branding of express services. Too bad, if BRT is built properly in North America, the costs won't be that much less than a rail line.
BRT will never be a subsitute for rail. Never.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2009, 03:57 PM   #252
Falubaz
Registered User
 
Falubaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Zielona Gora, Polska
Posts: 14,799
Likes (Received): 2940

Look it up! Other cities,, like Bogota or Curitiba made it right. it IS an altrernative and it IS way cheaper!
__________________
Zielona Góra - Ziemia Lubuska

₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany
Falubaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2009, 05:47 AM   #253
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

I've been very impressed by the BRT Orange Line in Los Angeles. It has the essential features of BRT. Tickets are purchased at the stations and the buses operate on their own right-of-way for most of the route. By most measures, it has out-performed the light rail Gold Line. Despite what the critics say, LACMTA considers the Orange Line to have additional available capacity and is extending the line. The following are some numbers from the LACMTA website < http://www.metro.net/news_info/facts.htm >.

Date Opened
Gold Line LRT: July 26, 2003
Orange Line BRT: October 29, 2005

Construction Cost
Gold Line LRT: $859 million
Orange Line BRT: $330 million

FY09 Operating Budget
Gold Line LRT: $44 million
Orange Line BRT: $23 million

Route Length
Gold Line LRT: 13.7 miles
Orange Line BRT: 14 miles

Number of Stations
Gold Line LRT: 13
Orange Line BRT: 13

Average Weekday Boardings
Gold Line LRT: 24,219
Orange Line BRT: 21,412

FY08 Boardings
Gold Line LRT: 6.58 million
Orange Line BRT: 7.46 million
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2009, 03:36 PM   #254
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

The Los Angeles "BRT" line should have been built as a rail line. In fact the busway WAS a rail line. Makes you wonder why LACMTA pulled up the existing tracks to build a busway. The overcrowded buses, and extremely short-frequencies(which lead to bunching), and the rutted roadway are just a few of the problems with this line. The most significant problem is likely the buses having to slow down to 10mph at corssings due to the high number of accidents at signalized crossings. Of course that could be solved with crossing gates. The sort of crossing gates that rail systems have to employ. This is just another example of a North American agency taking the cheap way out, when rail should have been the mode built.

On the upside, this line COULD be a showcase of what true BRT could look like. THey could re-pave the busway with concrete, build high-floor stations, and ship in bi-articulated buses with level boarding. Of course, that will most likely cost significantly more, which will de-bunk BRT proponents claim of "like rail, but cheaper"

The Calgary "BRT" lines are supposed to be a precursor to building LRT in the future, so you might see better shelters. I do know the city is waiting for funds from the government to build shleters along the lines. Real time arrival information would be helpful too.

Last edited by JustinB; September 2nd, 2009 at 07:02 PM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2009, 07:55 AM   #255
xTeVe
I'm from Cali ve!!
 
xTeVe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Santiago de Cali
Posts: 4,555
Likes (Received): 319

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Look it up! Other cities,, like Bogota or Curitiba made it right. it IS an altrernative and it IS way cheaper!
and has more coverage for less money.

For example, the MIO (Santiago de Cali, Colombia) will be the system with the bigger coverage in the country, with a coverage of the 95% of the city.

Some pics from the MIO...

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.m.a View Post
MIO



























__________________
:::Santiago de Cali:::
Precursora de la Independencia de Colombia
xTeVe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2009, 02:01 PM   #256
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
The Los Angeles "BRT" line should have been built as a rail line. In fact the busway WAS a rail line. Makes you wonder why LACMTA pulled up the existing tracks to build a busway. The overcrowded buses, and extremely short-frequencies(which lead to bunching), and the rutted roadway are just a few of the problems with this line. The most significant problem is likely the buses having to slow down to 10mph at corssings due to the high number of accidents at signalized crossings. Of course that could be solved with crossing gates. The sort of crossing gates that rail systems have to employ. This is just another example of a North American agency taking the cheap way out, when rail should have been the mode built.

...
The pavement problem was a one-time problem caused by a contractor not following specifications. The pavement has been repaired and the problem has not recurred.

The short headways between buses are part of the reason for the popularity of the Orange Line. Station wait times are short. Headways would be much longer if the line had been built as light rail with multi-car trains.

I agree regarding crosing gates. It is fairly common practice for light rail lines in downtown areas to be protected only by signal lights at intersections. The Blue Line in downtown Los Angeles does not have crossing gates. Crossing gates should have been required.

Last edited by greg_christine; September 3rd, 2009 at 02:08 PM.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2009, 04:10 PM   #257
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The pavement problem was a one-time problem caused by a contractor not following specifications. The pavement has been repaired and the problem has not recurred.
Unless they use concrete, it's not going to last long.

Quote:
The short headways between buses are part of the reason for the popularity of the Orange Line. Station wait times are short. Headways would be much longer if the line had been built as light rail with multi-car trains.
I was inccorrect about the short headways. The peak headway is actually 4-5 minutes. Not that short at all, and the buses are still packed. it is interesting that on the Orange Line schedule, The peak frequency is listed as "buses arrive every 4-5 minutes" I have a feeling the schedule is not predictable, and there is inconsistencies with the actual running time. Compare that to the Gold Line schedule which prints the exact time of every train. Predictable, and not subject to gaps within the schedule. The Orange Line should have been built as rail. If it is at capacity running a 4-5 minute schedule during the PEAK hours, you know you reached the threshold of BRT capacity. The Gold Line frequency during peak hour is 7-8 minutes. Not that much longer than the Orange Line.

Quote:
I agree regarding crosing gates. It is fairly common practice for light rail lines in downtown areas to be protected only by signal lights at intersections. The Blue Line in downtown Los Angeles does not have crossing gates. Crossing gates should have been required.
\

That can be applied to all transit line including BRT in the downtown core. OC transpo's bus crawl through the downtown core picking up passengers.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2009, 10:42 PM   #258
lightrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 205
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Unless they use concrete, it's not going to last long.



I was inccorrect about the short headways. The peak headway is actually 4-5 minutes. Not that short at all, and the buses are still packed. it is interesting that on the Orange Line schedule, The peak frequency is listed as "buses arrive every 4-5 minutes" I have a feeling the schedule is not predictable, and there is inconsistencies with the actual running time. Compare that to the Gold Line schedule which prints the exact time of every train. Predictable, and not subject to gaps within the schedule. The Orange Line should have been built as rail. If it is at capacity running a 4-5 minute schedule during the PEAK hours, you know you reached the threshold of BRT capacity. The Gold Line frequency during peak hour is 7-8 minutes. Not that much longer than the Orange Line.

That can be applied to all transit line including BRT in the downtown core. OC transpo's bus crawl through the downtown core picking up passengers.
What about 2 minute headways? Vancouver, B.C.'s 99 B-Line (a BRT running in mixed traffic) along Broadway runs every 2 minutes in the peak and every 4 minutes during the day - it carries 44,000 people per day. The only concession to true BRT is all-door boarding at all stops (but no ticket machines at the stops, passes and transfers can load on rear doors and people needing to buy a ticket load on the front door)
lightrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2009, 01:03 AM   #259
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,598
Likes (Received): 924

You are acting as if LRT wasn't capable of such sort headways. Well it is.
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2009, 07:15 AM   #260
adrimm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 2

First off: my intention when starting this thread was to explore the differences between a full/quality BRT, and an express bus service and how mis-branding arises.

The B Line express buses just use regular existing roads ( I don't think they are reinforced, but they are definitely major corridors built to handle heavy traffic) and regular articulated buses. Significant becuase despite the discomfort of such a rainy climate and very minimal anthing (they use bus stops), they have been a primary transport mode for at least several hundred thousand of people over the years.

Over the last 10 years this relatively bare bones express bus is responsible for bringing ridership on the Broadway corridor up to where it is now justifiable to consider the immense investment of an *underground* line - but did so on a dime.

If an express bus can do this, a proper BRT using an existing heavy-traffic roadway, and stations with capacity for 2 buses to "dock" on each side of a station (ie potentially 4 buses at once), and properly built stations could serve a similar function albeit be that much faster and comfortable. Something with enough fixed elements to feel permanent, frequency, hours and destination to be convenient, and amenities to be comfortable will draw riders. It's about customer service and the right sort of investment for the situation/need.

Last edited by adrimm; September 13th, 2009 at 07:00 PM. Reason: ammend to put back on track
adrimm no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
brt, bus rapid transit, public transport, urban transport

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium