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Old September 10th, 2009, 10:26 PM   #281
Eurotram
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Eurotram started here again his privat war - his enemy is known as "BRT". If u guys need a "professional" (in fact a 'very good' home made) psychoanalysis, just say: "BRT is good", "great", "awesome" (or anything positiv), and u get the even better result when u say "BRT is an alternative to trams" - but the latter one is on ur own risk.
U can be chased through out the threads
It starts to be really boring... It's not a private war;I could rather call that your irrational aversion to trams.You put here (and you know where ) fairytales taken from websites or periodics strongly sympathizing with BRT lobby's (like that "data" taken from the website supporting development of roads and highways);I try to make it more true and show you (or rather to the other people) the rewers of this "coin".You are trying to prove,that something you can't have in your city isn't necessary;I'm trying to show,that human costs of transport companies (I have to write it:it's the thing,you know completely nothing about!) make a real difference (apart from much longer tram's working life).BRT has only (and not always,what I proved) one advantage:lower purchase price... just like a chinese car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
@ Eurotram - Jak masz coś do mnie to dawaj na PM i "don't make a village" jak to ktoś b. znany powiedział.
Najzwyczajniej mi się nie chce,tak jak (przyznaję uczciwie) nie miałem w ciągu ostatnich dwóch dni dość cennego czasu,by na te wypociny odpowiedzieć;zresztą dość go już zmarnowałem w wątku o BRT,bo nie da się przekonać kogoś,kto ma zupełnie inne intencje.Co do priva... to Ty też swoich bajek nie piszesz na privie,a publicznie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
@ StreetView
Sure, the problem is, some routes never reach that high capacity, when a heavy rail is needed and in fact BRT is pretty fast and cheap way to make the city transportation WAY better.
In NORMAL big city transport system there IS something between subway (or/and S-bahn) and buses.You know what's that:your "beloved" trams.You want example?Here you have:BERLIN!

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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Btw. isn't it interesting how many cities all around the world start building BRT-systems?
As a (a very difficult word for you) COMPLEMENTATION of subway,trams and "common" buses.Or maybe you'' be so kind and write here how big are these european cities,which start building BRT-systems?
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Old September 10th, 2009, 10:37 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
In NORMAL big city transport system there IS something between subway (or/and S-bahn) and buses.You know what's that:your "beloved" trams.You want example?Here you have:BERLIN!


You'd think BRT, and subway fanatics would get this.
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Old September 10th, 2009, 10:54 PM   #283
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There are no BRT or subway fanatics. The ppl that talke about 'em don't 'troll' in trams-topics as this is the case here and in every monorail, BRT and no-tram-topic.

As for the word that i don't know (i'm too stupid to know it i guess - judging from the answer i got from eurotram) - COMPLEMENTATION: trams and common buses are the same as BRT and common busses, coz BRT are an alternative to trams.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 07:51 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
There are no BRT fanatics.
Oooo,what a pity;I suppose the only one mirror in your home is broken.But if you ask someone,he'll lend you one for sure.And then... you'll be able to see a BRT fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
The ppl that talke about 'em don't 'troll' in trams-topics as this is the case here and in every monorail, BRT and no-tram-topic.
Your hipocrisy is ubelievable;you fight against trams in every topic you have a possibility to do it!It's no mater what's the topic about: about monorail (eg. in Rzeszów) or fast urban railway (in your city ),you put your "three cents";moreover,these "three cents" are always the same: you can build everything you want,but not tramway!Even the first post in your favourite topic was a one big provocation,counted to elicit a reaction from people who know,that trams are a reasonable solution in big cities (and even in very big cities,but on one condition:trams can't try to substitute subway;in such big cities,I mean in cities about few million inhabitants, they can only COMPLEMENT SUBWAY AS A PART OF A TRANSPORT SYSTEM;by the same way BUSES CAN'T SUBSTITUTE TRAMS OR SUBWAY,but only COMPLEMENT THEM.The best example you have in Paris:all the means of transport are developed year by year.Guess why...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
As for the word that i don't know (i'm too stupid to know it i guess - judging from the answer i got from eurotram) - COMPLEMENTATION: trams and common buses are the same as BRT and common busses, coz BRT are an alternative to trams.
As I supposed:you really don't understand this word.Or rather YOU DON'T WANT to understand it
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Old September 11th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #285
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Oh, a brand new psychoanalisis? How nice! Thx doc!
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Old September 12th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
That's the point! The lrt/tram has never been the option in Curitiba. It's been skipped by BRT! So there is no need to waste money for the second stage. Two are more than enough: BRT-->Metro
You'll never accept the information that in some cases LRT or tramway / streetcar can be almost as effective as metro, be it in your native language or any other, will you? Also, repeating the story about BRT low costs recalls me only the words by Goebbels: "A lie repeated a thousand times becomes a truth".
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Old September 12th, 2009, 02:47 PM   #287
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That's my point: in some cases trams (i.e. fast-trams/premetro/lrt and so on) can be an alternative to the full metro. And the same again: BRT can be an alternative to rail-transport too. What to choose is always the question of:
1. costs that are needed
2. time for building the system
3. political will

btw.
Which lie? About trams being the only ones good? But let's stop trolling here about trams. It's the BRT-topic.Trams are not the single solution. Proof? - dozens and dozens of cities have already BRT-systems and hundreds more are building it and/or planning.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 03:38 PM   #288
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Some of my own considerations in this subject written in BOLD inside the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
BRT is just the new buzz word of the day. Hence it's not surprising that many operators label their regular bus services "BRT".

Just like LRT at it's day and age ... pure marketing/propaganda for reselling something.

But what is a "quality" BRT? BRT enthusiasts claim it's virtually like LRT. That would mean at least partial (if not mostly) grade seperation, accessibility, certain quality of stations, high frequency of service.

Again ... pure marketing/propaganda ... it's nothing more than a "mask" to try to sell the ARTICULATED-BUS + BUSWAY as if it was something more than that .. in this way "any" bus on a busway is a BRT.

What people never take into consideration are the mere economical disadvantages of BRT compared to LRT:
- The life cycle of any road vehicle is considerably shorter than the one of rail vehicles. Heavily used busses are completely worn out after 10 years.
LRT vehicles are literally obsolete in a decade after their construction ... a "new" bus is used for heavy traffic routes for 4/8 years and then get's cascaded to secondary services for another 4/8 years and then it either gets scraped or a golden retirement as a backwash/suburbia local bus , school/social.entity service bus , or any other form of postumous useability they can find.
So claiming that LRT is better than the use of BRT(aka busways in major routes and/or dedicated roads) is a bit misleading since both have their own advantages and disadvantages.

- lower capacity, which means more buses in order to reach the same capability, which means higher costs for salaries (number one cost factor in western nations!)
A bus usually gets single , double or triple bodies ... same as with a LRT vehicle ... headways of 30 seconds are not a problem with bueses ... and considering that such a high frequency could be used to get buses in a trunk-route that services a great number of terminal routes it is not necessarily a BAD thing that they "suposedly" have a smaller capacity than LRT).

- Gas prices: With peak-oil already reached, gas prices are very likely to go up gradually and become a major cost factor, whereas green electricity production is booming
Trolleycar(electric) , CNG , Diesel , hibrid , etc ... there are inumerous options out there ... using a LRT system for a decade probably doesn't even compensate for its own construction cost ... never mind the electricity spent to actually run the system in a daily basis.
In a decade in a "dense" corridor the bus probably paid itself over a couple of times


- Environmental factors: higher pollution, higher emissions, particulate matter problem is a major health risk --> Kyoto Agreement
Again a false question ... noise and other factor must be taken into acount also.

- Lower running smoothness compared to rail, lack of the 'rail bonus' means lower passenger numbers
Rail never seems to get that big extension that buses make ... a network with "feeder" going into the main trunk (busway/BRT) when compared with a mix of feeder routes (usually buses) feeding a propper LRT can get some people to follow other options just for the sake of needing to exchange vehicles midway.

- in addition to bus wheel noises which are the number one traffic nuisance for nearby residents.
Wich is in fact much quieter than rail vehicle wheel noise.
I give you a couple of examples:

They just built a "new" LRT system nearby here ... after 6 months of operation it is completely EMPTY al day long ... they just go on about practically without nobody using them ...
The bus routes (Wich actually got deprived of their BUSways because of the LRT construction) nowadays go mixed with the remaining road traffic and ... they are packed full all day long.

Just a mix of GOOD tariff's vs. bad tariff's and a complete lack of common sense when "investing" in upgraded services in the area.

A revised and upgraded busway trunk would have been a much better choise than trowing a lot of money into the garbage just to "have a LRT" service in the area.

And this is one of the key factors where BRT wins over LRT ... one is focused on improving service to the comunity/region (BRT) and the other is focusing on creating "something" ... and this something usually doesn't seem to smell that right in the first place.

Then we get the complete oposite ... in my town/city (40.000 hab /120.000 hab in the conurbation) we get a 60 bus network with ... 5m of BUS lanes(it's actually just a bus-only road section) and a smeaphore/signal with BUS indicators not connected to any actuall BUS lane (And that's all)... and some 20 MILLION anual passengers in the SMALL network ... just think of anything like the amount of 10/20 million €/$/Ł in revenues coming out of that ... it gives you a great prespective of what a "propperly placed" BRT network can do for any place.

Of the record ... there are about 15 different routes ... in the main arteries of the town (almost all are actually 1+1 roads) that net's a 15/30 seconds headway during rush hour ... all packed full.

Offtopic: one thing we find "amusing" here is that "comuter" in north america is usually freigh grade locomotives pulling something between 3 trans a day and 1 tph ... here it usually means a train every 10/15 minutes ... 30 minutes tops ... and one should expect that at any station a network of propper BUS feeder services would be available.
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Last edited by sotavento; September 12th, 2009 at 03:48 PM.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 05:17 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Some of my own considerations in this subject written in BOLD inside the quote:


Offtopic: one thing we find "amusing" here is that "comuter" in north america is usually freigh grade locomotives pulling something between 3 trans a day and 1 tph ... here it usually means a train every 10/15 minutes ... 30 minutes tops ... and one should expect that at any station a network of propper BUS feeder services would be available.
Commuter trains in North America use frieght tracks simply because all of the railways are privately owned and the private companies move frieght, not passengers.

The number of trains vary - but commuter refers to people moving into the city to work in the day and then home at night. There are many examples of commuter trains operating more frequently than you state. Vancouver has 5 trains in and five trains out - limited by available train paths and cost to rent those paths from CP Rail. Toronto has all day commuter trains, as does Montreal. In the US, commuter trains run all day in New York, Chicago, San Franciso, Los Angeles,, mabe others I've missed. But certainly not the frequencies you see on European systems, whcih were setup fgor and are still used primarily for passengers.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 05:18 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post

...

And comparing this to some light rail projects:


• Charlotte — Lynx LRT, South corridor (completed 2007):
9.6 mi (15.5 km), US$496 million
$32 million/km
$52 million/mile

• Sacramento — Folsom LRT extension (completed 2004):
7.4 mi (11.9 km)
$25 million/km
$41 million/mile

...
Part of the Charlotte Lynx route already existed as a heritage streetcar line. The Sacramento Folsom Line was initially built as single-track. Why not mention Seattle where the initial LRT segment cost about $150 million/mile and future extensions are projected at more than $200 million/mile.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 05:22 PM   #291
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Regarding the cost issue, what is really of interest is the cost of BRT versus light rail in the same corridor. Studies of this have been performed in several cities. The following is information I've found in various reports on the Internet.


VANCOUVER - COQUITLAM/EVERGREEN LINE

- Capital Cost
Guided Buses: $285 Million
Light Rail: $670 Million

- Operations and Maintenance Costs per Passenger Boarding
Guided Buses: $4.10 /Passenger
Light Rail: $6.95 /Passenger


LAS VEGAS - HENDERSON TO NORTH LAS VEGAS

- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $700 Million
Light Rail: $1,115 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $218 Million/Year
Light Rail: $203 Million/Year


SAN JOSE - WARM SPRINGS BART CONNECTOR

- Capital Cost
Busway BRT: $1,155 Million
Light Rail: $1,514 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Busway BRT: $19.5 Million/Year
Light Rail: $41.8 Million/Year


NEWPORT NEWS, VIRGINIA

- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $178 Million
Light Rail: $250 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $4.7 Million/Year
Light Rail: $9 Million/Year


SEATTLE - I-90 TRANS-LAKE WASHINGTON LINE

- Capital Cost
Rail Convertible BRT: $3.7 - $5.0 Billion
Light Rail: $4.6 - $6.2 Billion

- Operations & Maintenance Cost (Net change relative to common baseline)
Rail Convertible BRT: -$17.2 Million/Year
Light Rail: +$29.0 Million/Year


When presented with thses figures, light rail supporters counter that light rail would attract higher ridership. I believe there is some truth to this though the exact numbers are subject to debate. I have seen claims that light rail will attract up to 30% higher ridership than BRT operating in the same corridor. Even if this claim is accepted, BRT is still very competitive as light rail is generally at least 30% more expensive. For the same amount of money, a more extensive BRT system can be built that would attract higher ridership.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #292
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My intention when I began this thread was not to get into justifying or not justifying BRT, but to point out the edit: "politically" hazy line between an express bus and a quality BRT, and the liberties that some agencies may be taking in how they brand or present the service they are offering.

Last edited by adrimm; September 12th, 2009 at 11:37 PM.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 06:41 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
My intention when I began this thread was not to get into justifying or not justifying BRT, but to point out the incredibly hazy line between an express bus and a quality BRT, and the liberties that some agencies may be taking in how they brand or present the service they are offering.
It's really just about marketing. A while ago officials decided to label the suburban and regional train services in my area "S-Bahn" and nothing else really changed (still terrible time table on some branches, lousy stations, etc).

And recently some wise-ass politicians proposed some minor improvements to the bussystem (more articulated buses and shorter headways) and named their idea "Superbus", while it is nothing but a minor (and much needed) improvement to the regular bus system.

Officials and politicians like these rebrandings: They don't cost too much, make a nice picture opportunity and sound great on paper.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 10:22 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Regarding the cost issue, what is really of interest is the cost of BRT versus light rail in the same corridor. Studies of this have been performed in several cities. The following is information I've found in various reports on the Internet.


VANCOUVER - COQUITLAM/EVERGREEN LINE

- Capital Cost
Guided Buses: $285 Million
Light Rail: $670 Million

- Operations and Maintenance Costs per Passenger Boarding
Guided Buses: $4.10 /Passenger
Light Rail: $6.95 /Passenger


LAS VEGAS - HENDERSON TO NORTH LAS VEGAS

- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $700 Million
Light Rail: $1,115 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $218 Million/Year
Light Rail: $203 Million/Year


SAN JOSE - WARM SPRINGS BART CONNECTOR

- Capital Cost
Busway BRT: $1,155 Million
Light Rail: $1,514 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Busway BRT: $19.5 Million/Year
Light Rail: $41.8 Million/Year


NEWPORT NEWS, VIRGINIA

- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $178 Million
Light Rail: $250 Million

- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $4.7 Million/Year
Light Rail: $9 Million/Year


SEATTLE - I-90 TRANS-LAKE WASHINGTON LINE

- Capital Cost
Rail Convertible BRT: $3.7 - $5.0 Billion
Light Rail: $4.6 - $6.2 Billion

- Operations & Maintenance Cost (Net change relative to common baseline)
Rail Convertible BRT: -$17.2 Million/Year
Light Rail: +$29.0 Million/Year


When presented with thses figures, light rail supporters counter that light rail would attract higher ridership. I believe there is some truth to this though the exact numbers are subject to debate. I have seen claims that light rail will attract up to 30% higher ridership than BRT operating in the same corridor. Even if this claim is accepted, BRT is still very competitive as light rail is generally at least 30% more expensive. For the same amount of money, a more extensive BRT system can be built that would attract higher ridership.
Greg,my post I wrote a while ago crashed like a house of cards,so I answer you again,but in a shorter way (I you want I'll develop the discussion).

First two cases (Vancouver and Las Vegas): you compare SkyTrain (a mean of transport placed "higher" - not only above the street level - than a modern tram;a mean of transport FULLY independent of city traffic,which trains can be developed by additive sections;it could be developed to a real S-bahn) to trolleybuses (which can be developed to only to ca. 24 meters by buying a Lightram,a swiss trolleybus for 1 Mio. Euro each)? Are you sure they are comparable?Besides in Vancouver think of introducing trams (they are borrowing 2 Flexity trams from Brussels next year

and if they have tram system,then it's costs would be lower than Skytrain's.
Las Vegas:again monorail,but longer.Nothing to compare

San Jose light rail:

Two- or three-car-trains.What about comparison per passenger (and other things I can write if you want me to develop this discussion)?

NORFOLK:

Nearly 30 m. long Avanto in 7,5 min. tact against buses (max.18m long).What can carry more passengers:such a LRT line or a BRT line?

SEATTLE:
Old BredaMenarini high floor trolleybuses (fully cushioned many years ago) against lately inntroduced,nearly 30m long low floor Kinki-Sharyo trams.Different length,different capacity and... wait few years till the moment they will must replace the rolling stock (trolleybuses of course) and I suppose then costs on this side will significantly increase
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Old September 13th, 2009, 02:41 AM   #295
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Guided buses, light rail, and Skytrain were all considered in the initial studies for the Coquitlam/Evergreen Line in Vancouver. Guided buses were found to have the least cost. Skytrain was found to have the highest ridership. Light rail occupied an uncomfortable middle ground with a ridership closer to BRT at a cost closer to Skytrain. Light rail was initially selected by default because guided buses were considered developmental and Skytrain was above a pre-defined cost cap. The decision was later revisited with Skytrain being selected.

The transportation authority in Las Vegas considered BRT, light rail, and commuter rail (Diesel Multiple Units) for a regional transit line. The selection was quickly narrowed to either BRT or light rail. Monorail was never actively considered. The Las Vegas Monorail is owned and operated by a private company unrelated to the transportation authority. The transportation authority realized that BRT could be designed as a network that offered a single-seat ride downtown from various corners of the region with local buses merging onto the BRT route. The concept was publicized with the slogan "An Octopus not a Snake".

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Old September 13th, 2009, 02:52 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
My intention when I began this thread was not to get into justifying or not justifying BRT, but to point out the edit: "politically" hazy line between an express bus and a quality BRT, and the liberties that some agencies may be taking in how they brand or present the service they are offering.
Please excuse the digression. Every time BRT is mentioned, an argument erupts with light rail proponents.

The biggest enemy of BRT is the tendency for transit agencies to simply give their buses fancy paint jobs and declare them BRT. Essential elements that BRT should have include the following.

- Dedicated or restricted use travel lanes.
- Off-vehicle ticket purchase.
- High service frequency.

Fancy paint jobs on the buses should be optional.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 06:50 AM   #297
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Much has been said about BRT. Basically though, its an option for cities that don't have enough funding to build a real rail transit system along a particular corrider, that's all. If Curitiba had the funds to build a rail line, they'd probably have gone with rail, they didn't so they went with BRT. Cleveland waisted something like half a billion bucks on a BRT, for not much more, they might have greatly improved their existing heavy/light rail.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 06:55 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayviews View Post
Much has been said about BRT. Basically though, its an option for cities that don't have enough funding to build a real rail transit system along a particular corrider, that's all. If Curitiba had the funds to build a rail line, they'd probably have gone with rail, they didn't so they went with BRT. Cleveland waisted something like half a billion bucks on a BRT, for not much more, they might have greatly improved their existing heavy/light rail.
There are a numerous other threads debating the appropriateness or suitability for different modes in different places - as I said above my intention when starting this thread was to explore the differences between a full/quality BRT, and an express bus service and how mis-branding arises.

Perhaps someone can resurrect or begin anew one of the intentional rail vs BRT threads and move the discussion there - I think the political willingness for mass transit network expenditure would make for a robust conversation.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Please excuse the digression. Every time BRT is mentioned, an argument erupts with light rail proponents.
How it sounds... but I must put a little correction here:you show it as a war of good-natured BRT-enthusiasts and fanatical LRT-fans;meanwhile the situation looks quite different.I'll give you an example:known here Falubaz started his BRT-topic form an evident provocation,which sounded almost like "now we have good weapon to fight against trams".So i'll write it shortly: in that topic ([Świat] Bus Rapid Transit) a BRT FANATIC STARTED THIS WAR. In this context question:why LRT-fans write in BRT topic looks really funny;I really doubt that if I called on (not only) LRT-fans to encourage transport operators in their cities to reduce a bus lines opreation (and if I did it in an LRT-topic),you (BRT fans) wouldn't react
Adrimms move (I mean: starting of this topic) was a kind-hearted action,but unfortunately not everyone goes the same way... I gave you examples of complementation and coegsistence of different means on transport in one big city;and you take it as a malicious act...?



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Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The biggest enemy of BRT is the tendency for transit agencies to simply give their buses fancy paint jobs and declare them BRT. Essential elements that BRT should have include the following.

- Dedicated or restricted use travel lanes.
- Off-vehicle ticket purchase.
- High service frequency.

Fancy paint jobs on the buses should be optional.
Such a thing we'll have in our capital (Warsaw);but i agree that METROBUS will be no BRT.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:23 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
There are a numerous other threads debating the appropriateness or suitability for different modes in different places - as I said above my intention when starting this thread was to explore the differences between a full/quality BRT, and an express bus service and how mis-branding arises.
I think the main disadvantage lies in its rapid nature. The city has to have a normal bus line running parallel,to bring the people who live between stations to the stations. This limits is usefulness in any city,especially in denser ones,where more people would be skipped this way than reached. I view the "express" as a middle way between the BRT and the normal buses,and it probably would bring in the best results,if there's no prejudice against buses.
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