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Old December 8th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
Greg,now you're writing just like an embittered BRT advocate;maybe could you be so kind and describe these two systems a little bit better?Because (as I remember) LRT line in Pittsburgh connects the city with the airport and it's going not only through the most populated areas;and where goes this Miami BRT line? I rememeber some manipulation done by Falubaz,it was about tram lines and BRT lines in Nantes;he compared.BRT line had about 20000 travels daily and the "weekest" tramline - ca. 35000.But there was one interesting thing:bus line had it's ending just behind city centre and the compared tramline ended it's "travel" after passing the city suburbs.So those comparison was a little bit unfair,wasn't it? And how it is about this case?
The Pittsburgh LRT doesn't connect the city with the airport at all (nowhere near it, actually), though there have been proposals to do this once the North Shore connector is completed. The Pittsburgh LRT only serves a few of the southern areas of the city proper and southern suburbs. The northern, west-central, and western areas of the city are completely unserved by LRT, as are the northern suburbs. For its size and area, the Pittsburgh LRT does a good job.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 07:23 PM   #322
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Greg,now you're writing just like an embittered BRT advocate;maybe could you be so kind and describe these two systems a little bit better?Because (as I remember) LRT line in Pittsburgh connects the city with the airport and it's going not only through the most populated areas;and where goes this Miami BRT line? I rememeber some manipulation done by Falubaz,it was about tram lines and BRT lines in Nantes;he compared.BRT line had about 20000 travels daily and the "weekest" tramline - ca. 35000.But there was one interesting thing:bus line had it's ending just behind city centre and the compared tramline ended it's "travel" after passing the city suburbs.So those comparison was a little bit unfair,wasn't it? And how it is about this case?
You may be correct;it is possible I thought of some other system (at least it's not my area),but you know that some BRT and LRT lines exist in different circumstances;and comparing them may cause really serious mistakes.Especially that I just took a look on the timetables of "T" and they are not impressive;lines 47L and 47S look quite well (but not excellent for mean of transport which sometimes pretends to be something more than a light rail),but remaining lines... look quite poor.In this case "T"'s results seem to be really good.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 08:00 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
You may be correct;it is possible I thought of some other system (at least it's not my area),but you know that some BRT and LRT lines exist in different circumstances;and comparing them may cause really serious mistakes.Especially that I just took a look on the timetables of "T" and they are not impressive;lines 47L and 47S look quite well (but not excellent for mean of transport which sometimes pretends to be something more than a light rail),but remaining lines... look quite poor.In this case "T"'s results seem to be really good.
You're right about the frequencies of the "T" in Pittsburgh. The system is underbuilt there; it doesn't connect the downtown city core with the airport, University area (Pitt and CMU), Convention Center, train station (not since 1993), northern areas, etc. If it were expanded, it would be far more useful to the residents and visitors and greater train frequencies could be justified due to the increase in overall passenger traffic . (I miswrote in my above post, should have said EAST-central and EASTERN areas of the city instead of west-central and west).
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Old December 8th, 2009, 09:11 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
where goes this Miami BRT line?
Essentially it goes through suburbs. It does connect points South to the MetroRail elevated metro system. It is along a former rail corridor, there has been talk of eventually making the BRT line rapid transit, but it is unlikely to happen any time soon. The overall ridership of transit in Miami is not as high as one might hope, but it is also not nearly as bad as people might think it to be.

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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:31 PM   #325
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So the idea of allowing toll-paying drivers to use those lanes in smart public policy, right?
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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:34 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Here we go again.
... with the same boring song

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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
So its better to serve 100.000 than let's say 100.000.000 ppl?
Why not 100.000.000.000?

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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Have u heard about new technologies? electric/hybrid/gas and so on - buses?
Have you heard how much Vancover had to pay for their hybrid buses?Is such a bus still competitive to a LRV?I wouldn't say so

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Is it better to live in lets say Houston with only one crapy tram line serving few citizens and the rest using private cars than lets say Bogota with splendide BRT network serving millions of people there?
This "crapy" tram line will be extended (48 km of track till 2020).About Bogota I can say only one thing:it is ridiculous that there is no subway in 7 million people city! You know very well how many passengers travel by subway in such a big metro area (there can be no comparison with BRT) and now we have proof that Bogota is a third world's city (as somebody above wrote). In this case BRT isn't a new technology;it's a half measure,which (later or sooner) must be replaced by subway (as in your beloved Curitiba,which has choked with traffic jam and now is building a subway system).
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Old December 9th, 2009, 12:03 AM   #327
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The problem is that Bogota got it's sybway line shelved and nobody knows if they will be able to build it, but new BRT lines are u/c and will open soon (why? coz its fatser and cheaper to construct), improving transport. Also Curitiba lost its goverment subsidies and got problems. The 'third world thing' isnt a reason. It's only an offence. Don't name it again, coz it's shame! The so called 'third world cities' can teach the 'rich world' how to handle transportation problems with easy means, and so some of them learnt already a bit. Unfortunately some still stuck in the 'old-thinking-mode'. But this will change. Sooner or later but it has to change.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 12:11 AM   #328
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Last edited by Falubaz; December 9th, 2009 at 12:12 AM. Reason: double post
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #329
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You can build a third-world system in Maputo, Mozambique, or Tokyo, Japan. Buses are "lesser" solutions beucause they rely in what already exists (infrastructure for cars, automotive industry) to provide a less-than-theoretically-efficient solution for public transit. They just divert capacity from cars to buses, whilst ignoring most safety devices and practices that are used in cars, such as seat-belts, airbags etc.

On the other side, subways INCREASE capacity providing an additional alternative without making a dent on existing one.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:55 AM   #330
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Quote:
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The problem is that Bogota got it's sybway line shelved and nobody knows if they will be able to build it,
When they reach the same "level of choking" which Curitiba did,they will have no choice.And (because it's a capital of the country) they will finde enough money (you'll see,as a consequence remaining cities will pay for that ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
but new BRT lines are u/c and will open soon (why? coz its fatser and cheaper to construct), improving transport.
No,it's a half measure again;city government simulate they doing their best,but they will wake up at the same moment when Curitiba did

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Also Curitiba lost its goverment subsidies and got problems.
And now this city has a huuuuuge problem,because they know very well they can develop their BRT system (they just announced it,you know that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
The 'third world thing' isnt a reason. It's only an offence. Don't name it again, coz it's shame! The so called 'third world cities' can teach the 'rich world' how to handle transportation problems with easy means, and so some of them learnt already a bit.
It's a fact.Have you ever heard,that poor people can't afford buying cheap things?And when you buy a cheap thing,you pay twice? They will realize it when it's too late.

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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Unfortunately some still stuck in the 'old-thinking-mode'. But this will change. Sooner or later but it has to change.
Wow,look how many "old-thinking-mode"'s examples you have in USA and not only (in Canada,North Africa,even in Brasil;you remember,what is Brasilia building now? ).Yerusalem,Tel Aviv... Everywhere stupid people... in your oppinion.Maybe this oppinion isn't as correct as you think...?
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #331
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Quote:
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In this case BRT isn't a new technology;it's a half measure,which (later or sooner) must be replaced by subway (as in your beloved Curitiba,which has choked with traffic jam and now is building a subway system).
Isnt that the point tho? Instead of going full measure with a MRT/Subway to a few places, go half-measure with a BRT/LRT/Rapid Tram that reaches more places and brings public transport to more people.

After a few years, identify the busiest line, followed by the next busiest, etc. and build MRT/subway as needed.

Seems like a cautious, logical compromise...and because everyone hates it that probably means that it is the correct approach...

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Old December 9th, 2009, 09:15 PM   #332
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Isnt that the point tho? Instead of going full measure with a MRT/Subway to a few places, go half-measure with a BRT/LRT/Rapid Tram that reaches more places and brings public transport to more people.

After a few years, identify the busiest line, followed by the next busiest, etc. and build MRT/subway as needed.

Seems like a cautious, logical compromise...and because everyone hates it that probably means that it is the correct approach...

Cheers, m
Yes,that (what you have written) looks nice and logical,but you don't take one important thing into consideration.Have you read the thread about BRT settled by Falubaz?Rather not,because it is in Polish.Falubaz in this thread tried to convince every reader,that cities (form small to few million people aglomerations) don't need light rail or even subway and fast city trains (S-bahn);he called off only the part about subway and he didn't do it before he realized that he went too far;but now I see he started preaching by the previous way again.I you read his thread about BRT,you could get to know that Falubaz is the clotted enemy of every tram-like-light rail;he calls even such as vehicles:

with the name: SLOWERS!Funny,isn't it? Vehicles with much better acceleration than every bus and not lower high speed than city-buses!You know why?Because he naver had them in his city and he never will (probably even trolleybuses;I talked to some guy who works on trolleybus project for Zielona Gora and this guy is almost sure that after 2010's election this project will "die")!But trams exist very close:in Gorzow Wielkopolski,capital of that voivodship and the first city-enemy of ZG!People in Gorzow love their trams (mayor of Gorzow tried to cut one of the tram lines,but he was affraid of citizens) and Falubaz (by the way,you know what the word "Falubaz" means?It's the name of his beloved speedway club;put in google words "Zielona Gora", "Gorzow Wielkopolski" and "nienawidzi" ("hates" in Polish) and first few results are connected with speedway!) "loves" trams as much as Gorzow (it's like with some guy,who's nick is "Manchester United";would you tell him after few beers that you love FC Liverpool?).And this is the source of his weird theories!
Of course he denies that explanation,but everyone can check above facts.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #333
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This would be childish, like "if I can't have a lawn, don't dare to plant grass in your beach house".
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Old December 9th, 2009, 09:54 PM   #334
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This would be childish, like "if I can't have a lawn, don't dare to plant grass in your beach house".
This wouldn't be childish;this IS childish!
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Old December 9th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #335
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And all above that Eurotram said is childish also, coz it's simply a lie!
U cant check it coz the thread he's mentioning is in polish, that's why Eurotram is telling u crap, but in the polsih thread about BRT he tryes to say BRt sucks and im trying to say it's an alternative for old fashioned trams. My point was always: BRt can compete with trams, and not with S-Bahns or metros (which is smooth lie of Eurotram). There are cities that BRt is the only solution if there is not enough money to built metro, but u need a fast transportation.
Bogota prooved, well planed BRT is cheaper and can reach equal ridership as lrt.
In other words its way more costefective.
The crap about speedway i wont comment, coz it's just not even childish, its simply pathetic of Eurotram making such stories up.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #336
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Well, I think you could sort your differences coming from a Polish-written forum in that forum

Nonetheless, I do not support BRTs, as they are a kind of "put a duct tape to stop a bleeding". Bogota is a third-world city in the sense of majority of its population living in precarious conditions, and not having a car.

In most West countries, majority of households has a least one car. They can see trams, light rail, subways are competing systems, worth a try. Especially in North America, however, "bus-base" transit is usually seen as crap (which it indeed is), ridden mostly by the poor who cannot afford a car (<10% of US households), competing with cars for road space etc.

I guess we shouldn't buy BRT even if they are "cheap" and reach the biggest number of users for the same reason we don't build huge, 60-story, housing projects in downtown even if they are "the cheapest social housing" alternative.

As an (relatively) impoverished country, Colombia might have no room to play with. In Europe and US, cities do have. So, build a decent subway, tramways and, yes, use buses on night routes or feeder services, but don't rely on buses as your primary mean of transportation just because it has "the cheapest cost for km built".
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Old December 10th, 2009, 01:02 AM   #337
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Well, as for NA every kind of public transportation seems to fail, since NA-cities are built for cars. In Europe the BRT systems started already to run in many places (Nantes, Toulouse, Paris-petite couronnes, Valencia and so on) and more and more cities are planing to switch into this mode. In some cases even planned tram lines were changed. It's a myth about 'BRT and third-world'. It started there and it came out that it can work in rich countries too.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 03:35 AM   #338
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I wrote on this toppic about BRT and LRT.
Quote:
It is not true:
- Costs of LRT are bigger, and LRT need more time for construction, but operating costs are lower (about 2 times)
- LRT is more atractive for people, and get more passengers (in countries wnere car is not luxury)
- LRT is more enviromental friendly, and spend lessen energy
- LRT can get high transit speed (80-120km/h) with high safety. Of course, if stop distances aren`t short
- LRT can use high capacity transport units, sometimes 100m long. That mean lessen number of employ.
- Railway systems have ability for more effective despeaching control then busses.
- Railway is better then busses in curves and tunnels by comfort and safety.
- LRT end station need lessen free space.

BRT is good for poor countries with wide bulevards, without respect for technical elite culture (or without technical elite culture), for countries with high risk for long term investitions, for countries with selfish polititions which want effect in them short mandate.
Sometimes, it is by technical reasons, to use highway lanes on bridges, which aren't made for railways. (Like in Istanbul, Bosphorous bridge)
I want to add, in any city subway, or LRT, or BRT, or tramway, or trolleybusses... are not same.

When we talk about technical elite culture, the most of european and former USSR countries have it, and they don`t have BRT-s (there are few exclusive cases). But, what to talk to Bogota, which is technical third world. Evrybody can operate busses, but railway is science! In Belgrade architects have main word in planing, and that is the reason for a lot of traffic planing mistakes in Belgrade tramway, and Belgrade railway junction. (that is example for not respecting existing science).

Other thing is, decisions are always by politics, and engineers are respected more or lessen. Nationalists and make-up politicians are always against railways, tramway, LRT... Only green parties are always suppoters of railways. After them are democratic parties (which are not only democrats by name, like in Serbia), which promote public discusions and lower authority of polititions.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 04:41 AM   #339
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Could someone point out, precisely, which proposed or existent (in modern times, post-1980 please) tram networks were scrapped in favor of BRT?

I think American cities are great. It makes more sense to build a city that can accomodate not only its citzens but also its fleet, and suburbs are a better social living arrangement than cramped downtowns - but that is another discussion.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 02:01 PM   #340
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When streetcar lines are closed in the United States, they are generally replaced with regular bus routes, not BRT.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Arborway branch of the Green Line in Boston was truncated in 1986.

- Regular bus lines were substituted when service was suspended on streetcar Routes 15, 23, and 56 in Philadelphia in 1992. Route 15, Girard Avenue, was reopened as a streetcar line in 2005, but the other two lines remain closed.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Waterfront Streetcar service was shutdown in Seattle in 2005 so that the maintenance shed could be bulldozed to make way for a sculpture garden.

I am not sure whether there was an official replacement for the Detroit Trolley that operated between 1976 and 2003. The line was short and the service was targeted toward tourists.
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