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Old December 10th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
Could someone point out, precisely, which proposed or existent (in modern times, post-1980 please) tram networks were scrapped in favor of BRT?
Commies tried to do that stupidity in the 70's,but after the oil crysis,they realised their mistake,and stopped busification of tramlines.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 09:49 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
Could someone point out, precisely, which proposed or existent (in modern times, post-1980 please) tram networks were scrapped in favor of BRT?
Scrapped?None.But I can tell you about few BRT lines,which were/will be conversed to tramlines
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Old December 10th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
And all above that Eurotram said is childish also, coz it's simply a lie!
U cant check it coz the thread he's mentioning is in polish, that's why Eurotram is telling u crap,
What an impudence!I should rather say you're lucky they can't understand what you've written in BRT thread!But maybe not;maybe if I put it in some translator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
but in the polsih thread about BRT he tryes to say BRt sucks
Bull shit:I wrote the COMPLEMENT (as I've written,this word is too difficult for you!) the other means of city transport (like in Nantes);and I can put some of my posts as proof!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
and im trying to say it's an alternative for old fashioned trams.
Old fashioned?

You've got some obsession about trams;and now I know the answer for some question:if you are able to write smth. sensible in this topic?Answer is:NO!
Now I see how painfull is that Gorzow has trams and you - not


Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
My point was always: BRt can compete with trams, and not with S-Bahns or metros (which is smooth lie of Eurotram).
Do you really want me to put some of your post as a proof that you lie? I can do it!Maybe not today,bacause thread has few tousands posts,but I will!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
There are cities that BRt is the only solution if there is not enough money to built metro, but u need a fast transportation.
Bogota prooved, well planed BRT is cheaper and can reach equal ridership as lrt.
In other words its way more costefective.
Bull shit again:half measure,for which they'll have to pay;and the price will be very high!

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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
The crap about speedway i wont comment, coz it's just not even childish, its simply pathetic of Eurotram making such stories up.
They can find it by themself;besides what can you say about somebody who takes name of the club as a nick?I would really take care what I say if somebody called "Lechia Gdańsk" or "Arka Gdynia".And hate between Falubaz and Stal Gorzow is proven;lets check on google
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Old December 10th, 2009, 10:49 PM   #344
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U have no arguments so u fight with my nickname? Ridiculous!

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
Could someone point out, precisely, which proposed or existent (in modern times, post-1980 please) tram networks were scrapped in favor of BRT?
None? As Eurotram said?
Here u are:

Nantes, France:

[IMG]http://i48.************/2co52k6.jpg[/IMG]

The yellow is BRT

They planned the 4th tram line but then they cancelled it and built BRT!
It's not even the 'third world' country so ... OMG! what happens? The rich use the third world ideas for themselves? This must be the end of our world!

Marseilles planed tram-extension was suspended and will be probably build as a BRT.


This map shows the plans. 3 tram and 3 BRT lines to be build, but only a part of the tramlines were finished and might be continue as a busways.

LA-Orange line (BRT) was the old railway line

Almost finished Oxford BRT line was alos a heavy rail in the past.
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Last edited by Falubaz; December 10th, 2009 at 11:15 PM. Reason: adding map
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Old December 10th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #345
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Nantes:





























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Old December 10th, 2009, 11:25 PM   #346
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Nantes' buses are crap, I'm sorry,huge mistake form their politicians. Sooner or later a government will come and transform the busway in a car lane.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 11:47 PM   #347
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we'll see.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #348
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As I noted in a previous post, streetcar lines in at least three U.S. cities have been shutdown and replaced with buses since 1980.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Arborway branch of the Green Line in Boston was truncated in 1986.

- Regular bus lines were substituted when service was suspended on streetcar Routes 15, 23, and 56 in Philadelphia in 1992. Route 15, Girard Avenue, was reopened as a streetcar line in 2005, but the other two lines remain closed.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Waterfront Streetcar service was shutdown in Seattle in 2005 so that the maintenance shed could be bulldozed to make way for a sculpture garden.

I am not sure whether there was an official replacement for the Detroit Trolley that operated between 1976 and 2003. The line was short and the service was targeted toward tourists.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 03:26 PM   #349
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Toronto replaced a bus line with a streetcar line in 1997. Construction is underway to repalce a number of bus lines with LRT , with the first line to open in 2012.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 09:09 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
U have no arguments so u fight with my nickname? Ridiculous!
I have a lot of arguments,but you (as usually) play you don't understand them.Don't worry:I got used to this



Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
None? As Eurotram said?
The word "scrapped" is also too difficult for you?It means: RAILS WERE DISMANTLED,TRACK ASPHALTED -> BRT line!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Here u are:

Nantes, France:

[IMG]http://i48.************/2co52k6.jpg[/IMG]

The yellow is BRT

They planned the 4th tram line but then they cancelled it and built BRT!
It's not even the 'third world' country so ... OMG! what happens? The rich use the third world ideas for themselves? This must be the end of our world!
And another bull shit of your style;line 4 is a typical example of "cream -skimming",because most part of this line is located in city centre (in contrast to some tram lines,which endings are in suburbs or even behind the city border.And in spite of this line 4 (when we found the last data) had a little bit more than a half of travellers which were reported for the "weakest" tram line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Marseilles planed tram-extension was suspended and will be probably build as a BRT.
In your dreams;and you write in again in spite of news which were shown in the meantime (as I remember) on the Railway Insider site (I mean this info about a huuuge money given for tramline extension programs in Marseille,Paris,Lyon etc;everything is in BRT thread)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
This map shows the plans. 3 tram and 3 BRT lines to be build, but only a part of the tramlines were finished and might be continue as a busways.
As I said:"might" is not equal to "will be"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
LA-Orange line (BRT) was the old railway line
Falubaz,users from North America konow better than us about realized (already and in clode futere) and planned extensions of LA light rail;so the news about LA light rail's death is really much exaggerated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Almost finished Oxford BRT line was alos a heavy rail in the past.
Really old line In our country (as you know) they build in such a case a little bit less developed transport ways:bicycle paths
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Old December 11th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
As I noted in a previous post, streetcar lines in at least three U.S. cities have been shutdown and replaced with buses since 1980.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Arborway branch of the Green Line in Boston was truncated in 1986.

- Regular bus lines were substituted when service was suspended on streetcar Routes 15, 23, and 56 in Philadelphia in 1992. Route 15, Girard Avenue, was reopened as a streetcar line in 2005, but the other two lines remain closed.

- A regular bus line was substituted when the Waterfront Streetcar service was shutdown in Seattle in 2005 so that the maintenance shed could be bulldozed to make way for a sculpture garden.

I am not sure whether there was an official replacement for the Detroit Trolley that operated between 1976 and 2003. The line was short and the service was targeted toward tourists.
Well,Philadelphia streetcar also seems to be targeted mostly toward tourists (still renovated old PCC trams.The only two cities with "serious" light rail systems (on the mentioned above list) are Boston (the same Green Line is the most heavily used light rail line in USA (as you can find,these are not my words ) and Seattle (where trolleybuses were thrown out form the famous tunnel in favour of light rail)


About scrapping of BRT in favour of light rail:
- the only BRT in Finnland will be conversed to a tramline;
- line H in Reims - conversion to tramline next year
- Ottawa and Vancouver will say their BRT's "good bye" (Ottawa is going to convert them (in fact) to tramlines,Vancouver (as I remember) to Skytrain;
- some (maybe even all) lines of Hamburg's Hochbahn will be converted to tramlines...
I don't remember the other examples,I have to check old posts in BRT thread

Last edited by Eurotram; December 11th, 2009 at 09:39 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 12:17 AM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
- Ottawa and Vancouver will say their BRT's "good bye" (Ottawa is going to convert them (in fact) to tramlines,Vancouver (as I remember) to Skytrain;
I wouldn't dare call our bus routes BRTs... more like limited-stop buses.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
I wouldn't dare call our bus routes BRTs... more like limited-stop buses.
But in some publications they are called so (for example lines - as I remember numbers - 99B, 97B)
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Old December 12th, 2009, 12:10 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
But in some publications they are called so (for example lines - as I remember numbers - 99B, 97B)
B for B-Line. The first B-Line, the 99, was on Broadway, hence the "B." That being said, many of the B-Lines do have HOV Bus Lanes during rush hours, but it's the lane by the curb, which hasn't really improved bus speeds.

Last edited by deasine; December 12th, 2009 at 12:19 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
Well,Philadelphia streetcar also seems to be targeted mostly toward tourists (still renovated old PCC trams.The only two cities with "serious" light rail systems (on the mentioned above list) are Boston (the same Green Line is the most heavily used light rail line in USA (as you can find,these are not my words ) and Seattle (where trolleybuses were thrown out form the famous tunnel in favour of light rail)
...
You have some misinformation.

- Philadelphia has five Subway-Surface trolley lines that share a transit tunnel through downtown plus two Red Arrow suburban trolley lines. There is also the Norristown line, which is generally classified as light rail though it operates on third-rail power. This is in addition to the Girard Avenue trolley line that uses vintage PCCs. It is also in addition to the three heavy rail subway lines that serve Philadelphia.

- Trolley buses no longer operate in the Seattle transit tunnel due to incompatibilities with the overhead wire system for light rail; however, hybrid buses do still operate through the transit tunnel. The buses will continue to operate in the transit tunnel for several years until the light rail extension to the University of Washington is completed.

As noted in a previous post, Seattle closed the Waterfront Trolley line because money couldn't be found to replace the maintenance shed. This was done at the same time that the city was planning the South Lake Union Streetcar. Much of the money to build the South Lake Union Streetcar came from a developer who was trying to sell real estate in the area. This leads one to wonder whether that line will also close at some point in the future due to a lack of money to maintain the line.

One of the questions asked in this thread is whether BRT has ever been substituted for a light rail plan. An interesting instance in which this has occurred is Las Vegas. Transit mode studies usually assume that BRT would operate on exactly the same route as light rail. Las Vegas looked at it differently. They considered that the lower cost of BRT would permit them to build a much more extensive system with local bus routes upgraded to merge onto the central spine of the BRT system with the result that a single-seat ride could be provided from distant neighborhoods to downtown. If the spine were built as light rail, passengers from distant neighborhoods would have to ride a bus to the light rail station and transfer. The plan was marketed under the slogan "An Octopus, Not a Snake".


Last edited by greg_christine; December 12th, 2009 at 01:36 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 07:40 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
You have some misinformation.

- Philadelphia has five Subway-Surface trolley lines that share a transit tunnel through downtown plus two Red Arrow suburban trolley lines. There is also the Norristown line, which is generally classified as light rail though it operates on third-rail power. This is in addition to the Girard Avenue trolley line that uses vintage PCCs. It is also in addition to the three heavy rail subway lines that serve Philadelphia.
You're correct,but when I took a closer look over SEPTA,then I got to some conclusions:
- trolley (or lets call them just tram) lines look a little bit strange:on the one hand on all the lines we have good or very good frequency;on the other hand most of brigades are served by single Kawasaki cars (am I right?If not,then correct me);NHSL is served by longer cars,but it's another category;
- "the best" bus line (SEPTA data about number of travellers) goes every 7-8 minutes;forgive me,but when I compare it to one of the "common" bus lines in Gdynia (Tricity,PL) going in peak hours every 6 minutes or many lines in Warsaw (it's justified by number of people living in Philadelphia and it's metro area),then I can just smile.So there we have only two possibilities:
1) most of Philadelphians choose their own cars;
2) most of mentioned above choose their own cars AND SUBWAY LINES (which is possible,especially about the MFL line going every 6 minutes).
Which answer is correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
- Trolley buses no longer operate in the Seattle transit tunnel due to incompatibilities with the overhead wire system for light rail; however, hybrid buses do still operate through the transit tunnel. The buses will continue to operate in the transit tunnel for several years until the light rail extension to the University of Washington is completed.

As noted in a previous post, Seattle closed the Waterfront Trolley line because money couldn't be found to replace the maintenance shed. This was done at the same time that the city was planning the South Lake Union Streetcar. Much of the money to build the South Lake Union Streetcar came from a developer who was trying to sell real estate in the area. This leads one to wonder whether that line will also close at some point in the future due to a lack of money to maintain the line.
Anyway:
- days (months,years) of buses in transit tunnel are also counted;
- maybe the SLUS will be developed as the other lines;now on SLUS you have there rather short Skoda trams and on the other tracks:

even in multiple traction.So...

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
One of the questions asked in this thread is whether BRT has ever been substituted for a light rail plan. An interesting instance in which this has occurred is Las Vegas. Transit mode studies usually assume that BRT would operate on exactly the same route as light rail. Las Vegas looked at it differently. They considered that the lower cost of BRT would permit them to build a much more extensive system with local bus routes upgraded to merge onto the central spine of the BRT system with the result that a single-seat ride could be provided from distant neighborhoods to downtown. If the spine were built as light rail, passengers from distant neighborhoods would have to ride a bus to the light rail station and transfer. The plan was marketed under the slogan "An Octopus, Not a Snake".

Hmmm... Who made that decision?Because I've read that light rail seemed to more attract people.Anyway they already have a monorail,whoich can be developed in future.We'll see
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:38 PM   #357
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Monorail in Vegas is a crap, coz it's going only to the big casinos, nobody takes monorail in Vegas but tourists, and they have to pay a lot for a stupid ride from one casino to another.

And the slogan from Vegas is just exactly what is my point here: "an octopus not a snake".
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Old December 13th, 2009, 03:06 AM   #358
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I woudl exclude heavily suburbanized metropolitan areas in US because dinamics, demands and target are fairly different than in Europe and some more dense metro areas in North America.

(note: I have nothings against "heavily suburbanized" metros. Indeed, I hope I can relocate to one of them after I finish my Ph.D in Europe, as I just love suburbs, big houses, private space etc.)
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Old December 13th, 2009, 03:03 PM   #359
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This is the reality of life in the United States. The type of housing we have is driven by market demand. There is a market among young adults and older retired people for housing in densely populated downtown areas; however, families with children tend to prefer houses on quiet streets with private backyards so that the children have safe places to play. I have cousins in Athens and I see that they prefer the same. They all used to live in the urban core. Now that they have children, they all have either moved to quieter suburban areas or have purchased weekend homes well outside the city. Urban planners deride this as sprawl, but that is the way that people prefer to live.

Returning to the subject of BRT, the outer areas of most U.S. cities have a population density too low to be fully served by rail lines. The reality is that buses are the only affordable option to provide transit access for many areas. If the U.S. ever did get to the point where private autos were no longer viable due to global warming or fuel shortages, the only option would be networks of bus lines.
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Old December 13th, 2009, 09:01 PM   #360
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Electric car + nuclear powerplants = no global warming risk.
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