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Old December 17th, 2009, 11:40 PM   #381
Tiago Costa
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What will not be necessarily a bad thing. A BRT being converted to LRT is the natural way, because of the capacity of both systems. If you are saying that the BRT line carry few passengers, that's the reason why they have a BRT and not a LRT.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 11:41 PM   #382
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Who uses the subway in Tokyo?
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Old December 17th, 2009, 11:50 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Costa View Post
Who uses the subway in Tokyo?
Hundreds of tousands of "white collars" in their ways to work
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Old December 18th, 2009, 12:06 AM   #384
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So we can assert that public transport in Tokyo has a very high acceptance level. Tokyo. But we cannot say that this is the reality of cities like Los Angeles, for example. One city, one reality. We can say about the trends of a country, and again, there are different country profiles (although a country can have very different profiles of cities, in terms of public transport).

The reality is: in some places, public transport is not seen as a good thing. In other places, it's seen as a very good thing. Where public transport is not seen as a good thing, positive campaigns can change this.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
...it wouldn't be the first BRT line in France converted to LRT
really? where is the 'first' one?
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Old December 18th, 2009, 01:27 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
Are there any cities with BRT lanes on the sides of roads?
Lagos BRT, Lagos Nigeria

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Old December 18th, 2009, 04:33 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Costa View Post
But there is a range in demand that can be served either by BRT or by light/medium capacity metro. There is not a gap, or a rigid boundary, when I can say "this demand can be served only by BRT", or "this demand can be served only by a light/medium capacity metro". The future outlooks for demand and the local population growth planned for the long term can help a lot in this cases, for example:

If a given corridor have a demand of 15.000 passengers/hour/direction, and in the next 20 years the demand is expected to grow to 20.000 passengers/hour/direction, and a BRT system can handle the future demand (which in most cases, a well-planned BRT can do), the best solution is the BRT.

But if a given corridor have a demand of 10.000 passengers/hour/direction, and in the next 20 years the demand is expected to grow to 30.000 passengers/hour/direction (a demand that a few BRT systems can handle, and not with good quality, and that a metro line can handle easily, while having a high chance of being profitable, if it is a light/medium capacity line), the best solution is a metro line. While the demand don't reaches at least 20.000 passengers/hour/direction, the minimum for a metro line that don't operates much under its capacity, a BRT line can be a temporary solution, but a metro line can't be discarded for the future, when the demand grows, and its construction can't be delayed too far, because the result maybe what happened in Curitiba.

When the subject is BRT x light rail, there are some things to deal with, especially the operation costs: BRT is cheaper than light rail. But the demands that the two systems serve, despite being almost the same, are better served by BRT when are lower, and are better served by light rail when are bigger. Adittionaly, when the demand is low, a BRT can be profitable, when a light rail can't. But when we talk about bigger demands, light rail systems deal better with it. And more, since light rail can deal with bigger (but not so much bigger, somewhat about 30.000 passengers/hour/direction with quality) demands than BRT, a light rail can serve a given demand corridor for more time than a BRT until a metro line is necessary.

Urban planning is the most important factor when dealing with future demands, because it have direct impact over it. Bad urban planning, bad future projetions, bad quality of the transport systems.
specifically the following, in varying degrees of relevance, the no. 1 being the
determining factor:
  1. ridership (both ppd and pphpd) and costs
  2. population levels
  3. rate of motorization
  4. density and urbanization sprawl
  5. per capita income
  6. land use and zoning
maybe the following diagram can help in the understanding, especially on the
need to argue or not ...



a lot of unnecessary arguments are made especially when comparing the BRT
and the metro (mass rail transit or MRT, almost the entire system of which is
invariably underground or elevated, and able to carry up to 90,000 pphpd, and
needed in most, if not all mega cities in the world).

as you can see, there may not need be arguments on the need of the metro,
the highest reported BRT ridership is only 45,000 pphpd, and that is of Trans-
Milenio of Bogota, which is a class by itself.

it is only when comparing the BRT and the LRT that we can have a meaningful
discussion and the points made by Tiago Costa above, are very, very rele-
vant --> the BRT has capacities equivalent to the LRT, has a wider range,
in fact from that lower than the lowest capacity LRT, to that higher than the
highest capacity LRT), but which can be constructed at a fraction of the
cost. again the above parameters should contribute to the decision-making,
but most notably, ridership and costs.

in the above example of Tiago Costa, 15,000 pphpd growing to 20,000 pphpd
in 20 years represents 1.45% growth in ridership levels, while 10,000 pphpd
becoming 30,000 pphpd in 20 years, means 5.65% growth. add to the that
is the invariable fact that rails need 5 years to build while BRTs can be built
in 18 months and can be built incrementally.

so. going back the the thread question, "Bus Rapid Transit? Do they work well
for your city?" (i would have preferred, "Will they work well in your city?), the
first determining factor is, what kind of city are you (now) and what kind of
city do you want? (these included such parametric descriptions as population
and growth rates, per capita income, etc., etc.). if you're a small city on the
fringes of 10,000 - 15,000 pphpd, and you don't have an existing public mass
transportation yet, BRT would be the logical choice. in the last 10 years, the
appropriateness of LRT has been greatly diminished by the success of the
BRT all over the world. not it's fault, it was the system of choice prior to
2000, when there was only one (1) existing BRT in the world (RIT of Curitiba,
built circa 1980's, but which mane people considered an exception - "BRT
works there because it is Curitiba ... it won't work anywhere else ..."
). but
TransMilenio of Bogota showed the world that BRTs do work (2000) and since
then there are hundreds of BRTs built and being built across the globe, the
economics simply dictates decision-making. many people say the BRT maybe
a precusrsor the the LRT in the future. i don't think so. while within the
ridership range, the BRT can be extendable which provides for seamless trips
(no transfer) so building an LRT replacing, alongside or extending a BRT is not
a good option. and when BRTs will reach their own capacity limits, the
next question is not whether to build an LRT or not anyway, it's building a
metro.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
really? where is the 'first' one?
Reims for sure and (as I remember) Nice (about Nice I don't remember one thing: if it was the first tram line or if the BRT line was sacrificed for the later tram system extensions;I must check in BRT thread,because I found it long time ago:six months or maybe even one year before ).

EDIT: in Nice tramline #2,along the seaside;you have to wait for the first ride till 2013,but of course you understand that building such a long line (15 km) cant be finished in one year

Last edited by Eurotram; December 18th, 2009 at 11:59 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zidlakan View Post
...

...
At least with respect to monorail, the above graphic is wrong. The higher capacity monorails used in Japan and China can easily match the capacity of LRT.





The flaw in these types of comparisons is that the main factor that ultimately governs the capacity of any line is grade separation, not transit mode. With a grade separated system, the vehicles can operate at closer headways without disrupting street traffic and station platform lengths aren't constrained by the distance between cross streets. Virtually any grade-separated system can be designed to have higher capacity than any non-grade-separated system regardless of transit mode.

Last edited by greg_christine; December 18th, 2009 at 01:52 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 05:35 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
That's the point. It's proven in several cities all around the world, that taking out car lanes and dedicate them to mass transit makes the situation better. The harder to go somewhere bu privat car, the more ppl switch to public transport, the less traffic jams there are.
My city of Toronto is doing just that with it's Transit City LRT project. Increasing the cpacity of the corridor by giving lane in each direction for a LRT ROW. It's one of the many benefits of LRT.
In terms of capacity, if you need the higher capacity of a grade-seperated system, why would you build a monorail which would most likely be proprietary? You can build elevated LRT, or even a full metro system if the demand is beyond LRT. Monorails can never be a competitor to LRT. They have their place, but it's limited.

Of course some cities have made the mistake of attempting to build hybrid metro/LRT system such as Seattle's Central Link.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
My city of Toronto is doing just that with it's Transit City LRT project. Increasing the cpacity of the corridor by giving lane in each direction for a LRT ROW. It's one of the many benefits of LRT.
In terms of capacity, if you need the higher capacity of a grade-seperated system, why would you build a monorail which would be most like proprietary? YOu can build elevated LRT, or even a a full metro system.

Of course some cities have made the mistake of attempting to build hybrid metro/LRT system such as Seattle's Central Link.
What a surprise:after reading your previous posts I thought you're the opponent of LRT... and it looks like I was wrong;besides now I see for the first time you are from Toronto.So BTW: I saw renders of your new Bombardier trams and... what type of pantograph will they have at least? Because on the render it's just a trolley-type pantograph;on the other hand that they will change the power-supply net so trams will have pantographs similar to other cars of this (Flexity Outlook) family ( "Z"-shaped).So which info is true?
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:41 PM   #392
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Comparing LRT and BRT

At first, Beograd in Serbia don`t have real BRT. It have bus and troleybus lanes. There are about 33km of bus lanes. Traffic in these lanes is terrible unrealiable, with too many buses, too many lines. The only advantage is that these buses move somehow, when the cars not move, barely. Existing tram would be better than anything else existing in Belgrade, if there be respect for the technical elite of the city authorities. With inexpensive procedures signaling and traffic control to achieve tremendous effects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesinclair
This is hilarious.

"When the bus crashes, its the bus's fault!"
"When the train crashes, it was the victims fault!
What is hilarious?
Guilt is always a violator of the law.
The possibility of braking of railway vehicles, and damage from the delay that affects on a large number of people are reasons for giving priority to railways (and at the expense of road).
Someone who has a basic education has to know that the train always has the advantage in traffic.

The problem in Los Angeles is that there are high capacity streets with grade crossings with the railway. That is bad solution for saving money for long term. 19 years later, they have not yet created a multi-level intersections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak
Which works better?

1) Having the bus lane in the center of the road

2) Having the bus lane on the sides of the road
Depends on the possibility of installing stop, generally is better on sides of the road. Only if it is BRT, better is in the center of the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidlakan
Specifically the following, in varying degrees of relevance, the no. 1 being the
determining factor:

1. ridership (both ppd and pphpd) and costs
2. population levels
3. rate of motorization
4. density and urbanization sprawl
5. per capita income
6. land use and zoning

maybe the following diagram can help in the understanding, especially on the
need to argue or not ...
7. Engineering staff and the level of technical education. Railway systems, in order to be successful, require an extremely high level technical personnel. Busses needn`t that.
8. Relation to the technical elite. Do you employ the most responsible positions politically most active, closest kindred, or the most capable? Ie the extent to which of criteria are important to get a job?
9. Investment risk. These include economic and political stability, first of all.
10. National Strategy and the relation to energy resources. Countries importing fossil fuel they want to use more electricity. If there is a strategy of saving energy, tends towards the railway.


This is only 2 dimensions graff, where are other dimensions, or ordering below graff:
- Rate of motorization
- Land use and zoning
- Per capita income

According to my experience, the data for the LRT for countries with high income, for 4 standing passengers per square meter for two tracks, and data for the BRT for a Third World country for 8 standing passengers per square meter and four traffic lanes.

There are no datas about quality, and there are a lot of other parameters.

Last edited by Rail_Serbia; December 18th, 2009 at 08:58 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:43 PM   #393
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:55 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Costa View Post
The reality is: in some places, public transport is not seen as a good thing. In other places, it's seen as a very good thing. Where public transport is not seen as a good thing, positive campaigns can change this.
Only positive campaigns are quality campaigns. Marketing isn`t very important, because, public transport need to be long term solution. Give people fast, frequent, realiable, comfortable, and from everywhere to everywhere public transport, and the most of them would use it.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #395
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It's not as simple like that, but it's very important. A good public transport system attract new riders, but until a given point. To go beyond this, positive campaigns are necessary to attract even more riders (assuming that the system have capacity to absorb these new riders). But most of the systems of the world do not need to do campaigns yet. Indeed, they need more quality first.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
What a surprise:after reading your previous posts I thought you're the opponent of LRT... and it looks like I was wrong;besides now I see for the first time you are from Toronto.So BTW: I saw renders of your new Bombardier trams and... what type of pantograph will they have at least? Because on the render it's just a trolley-type pantograph;on the other hand that they will change the power-supply net so trams will have pantographs similar to other cars of this (Flexity Outlook) family ( "Z"-shaped).So which info is true?
I am pro-LRT through, and through. There simply is no other mode that can match the benefit, and flexibilty of LRT. I am not against monorails, or BRT, but they cannot really compare to LRT. Apologies if my posts make me out to be anit-LRT.

In Toronto, we still maintain a modernized streetcar system that runs mostly in mixed traffic. That system will receive new Flexity's in a couple of years which will still utilize trolleypoles, until the TTC(transit agency) converts the system to handle pans. Newer sections of the system can handle pans, but much of the older system cannot. The cars will also be single-ended since every line has loops at each end. Of course, anything can happen in a couple of years. I think the TTC might update the system to handle pans.

The city is currently building new LRT lines that will be seperate from the legacy system. This system will be a modern LRT network with OCS, double ended cars, ROW(surface, and grade-seperated(tunnel) sections, the works. The city is finally getting to starting to build a true transit network, after wasting many years on plans that focused on expensive subways in corridors that did not have the demand.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 12:03 AM   #397
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Which reminds me... Japan and Hong Kong both have one of the most popular and well-used metros in the world, but they also have many ads for their systems.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
At least with respect to monorail, the above graphic is wrong. The higher capacity monorails used in Japan and China can easily match the capacity of LRT.

The flaw in these types of comparisons is that the main factor that ultimately governs the capacity of any line is grade separation, not transit mode. With a grade separated system, the vehicles can operate at closer headways without disrupting street traffic and station platform lengths aren't constrained by the distance between cross streets. Virtually any grade-separated system can be designed to have higher capacity than any non-grade-separated system regardless of transit mode.
noted. i will inform SYSTRA about your conclusion the next time i meet any
of their officials.

i think the above graph is a "general" presentation of the "ranges" of the
cost and capacities of PT systems. there may always be exceptions to the
rule - i've taken a ride in the monorails in japan and indeed these were quite
efficient. but they have to make a comparison somewhere, and to the World
Bank at that, so they provided this information based on their substantial
experience in rail and PT systems. if this is wrong or flawed, we'll just have
to inform them.

for a full presentation where the above was taken, please refer to the World
Bank website, through their site resources ....

BRT PERFORMANCES vs. MRT --> http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...9/4SYSTRA2.pdf

the way i assessed it, SYSTRA has been very, very objective in their present-
tation. well, you can't afford to be biased if it's for World Bank information.
besides, they are one of the world's best reputable firms in the field of public
transportation, most especially in rail. while they may favor rail, as a
business, i find their comparison very objective and informative.

information on the SYSTRA Group maybe found on their website at ...

SYSTRA Group --> http://www.systra.com/?lang=en
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Old December 19th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #399
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Lehigh And Northampton Transit Authority

LANTA as it's called, is not an ideal bus line for our area. We live in Allentown, Pennsylvania. It is comprised of Allentown, Bethelehem and Easton along with several smaller municipalities. The population od this area, combined equals over 650,000. Yet, our bus lines is very limited. It runs to shopping malls and a few bus terminals in the cities mentioned. But, the lines circumvent each other and there are not direct connections that can swirftly move people from town to town. Before 1950, this company ran inter-urban trollies which were more densely inerspursed within the area. They ran all the way to Philadelphia and connected many more far reaching communities. They also moved small freight as well as passengers. They converted to gas and diesel buses in the 50's like most of the rest of the Unites States. What a pity. This current bus service does little to get drivers off the congested roads. So, it's value is very limited and does not serve the public very well.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 02:19 AM   #400
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First of all BRT is not a failure in Miami. It is 20 miles long and starts at the southern terminus of the elevated Metrorail system which is heavy rail. It was built on a former frieght railroad line then went all the way into the Florida Keys which the government bought.
The road that runs alongside of the BRT is six to 8 lanes wide as it is but people choose to still drive their cars on this road sometimes in traffic jams that resemble parking lots instead. They could use the BRT instead & transfer to Metrorail to get into the city which I have done before.
This is nothing but a political ploy by county commisioners to generate more revenue.
The future plans was to convert the BRT & extend Metrorail the full length of it but Miami needs Federal funding for this and it takes years to get that money.
20,000 people using the BRT everyday doesn't sound like a failure to me!
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