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Old September 14th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #421
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Bus are a lesser and much more dangerous solutions in their common form. Contrary to rail-based vehicles, or even rubber-guided vehicles like Tranlohr, they rely heavily on drivers (not switches, ATC or any other automated system) to steer, control, brake/accelerate and position the vehicle, which makes them dangerous.

Personal cars and trucks suffer from the same issue, but on those vehicles, people use SEAT BELTS, ALL THE TIME (or are supposed to do so). Buses don't have city belts, and so are inherently hazardous. Lack of fixed-way guidance create a lot of uncomfortable lateral motion, and acceleration/deceleration profiles are horrendous for a vehicle that assume people travelling standing.

So I think developed countries should work toward the elimination of buses that carry people standing, and retain only those where people travel seated (no movement of vehicle before every single passenger is seated) and wearing seat belts. Busways should be converted into tramways or light rail or guided rubber tire vehicles etc.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #422
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What?! Who will pay for that? That's impossible coz trams are too expensive. Besides buses are more flexible. And i've never heard about ppl complaining about 'not having a seat belt' on a bus. It's exagerating.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
What?! Who will pay for that? That's impossible coz trams are too expensive. Besides buses are more flexible. And i've never heard about ppl complaining about 'not having a seat belt' on a bus. It's exagerating.
So constructing many lines of metro is okay but trams are somehow too expensive?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Buses are more flexible. Until they're stuck in traffic or gas prices shoot through the roof.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 05:57 AM   #424
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Ottawa's bus-only Transitway which is a bus-only roadway system except downtown where it has bus-only lanes on regular roads works extremely well even in Ottawa's snowy climate. It carries over 250,000 passengers a day yet serves only 900,000 people. It is fast, safe, cost effective, and is interlined with rushour express routes. Service is a mimimum of every 6minutes all day/evening so it truly is rapid.
Contrary to the LRT lobby, people will take the buses if they are modern, comfortably, fast, convient, and frequent. L.A.'s Orange Line and Cleveland's Healthline both prove that.
Often LRT lines are built for no other reason than "everyone else has one" but result in no ridership gains, much higher debt servicing levels, and higher operating costs which often results in cuts in all other bus routes in the city as the LRT bleeds money. Dallas and Seattle LRT exemplify that.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 06:10 AM   #425
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BRTs are cheap-a$$ versions of Light Rail/Trams. I hate them. BRT gives cities the options to be cheap, and I wish BRT was never discovered or used. No telling how many perfectly good proposed rail lines have been lost, because if BRT didn't exist the cities probably would have forked out the money anyway, but because that cheap option is there they cut corners.

Don't get me wrong, Express and Limited Stop services are vital(Even NYC needs them, even though it has the best rail system in US) BUT anyone who thinks using them is an alternative to rail should be hanged. Buses have huge capacity issues. Bus should be used to hit transit riders in outlying areas, and hit the fine detail spots(say, a specific corner or destination) and act as feeders for rail. Buses are not meant to take the role extremely high ridership corridors. If said bus line needs 60 ft artics at 2 minute headways for example, then that corridor needs to be upgraded to rail.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 06:27 AM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Ottawa's bus-only Transitway which is a bus-only roadway system except downtown where it has bus-only lanes on regular roads works extremely well even in Ottawa's snowy climate. It carries over 250,000 passengers a day yet serves only 900,000 people. It is fast, safe, cost effective, and is interlined with rushour express routes. Service is a mimimum of every 6minutes all day/evening so it truly is rapid.
Contrary to the LRT lobby, people will take the buses if they are modern, comfortably, fast, convient, and frequent. L.A.'s Orange Line and Cleveland's Healthline both prove that.
Often LRT lines are built for no other reason than "everyone else has one" but result in no ridership gains, much higher debt servicing levels, and higher operating costs which often results in cuts in all other bus routes in the city as the LRT bleeds money. Dallas and Seattle LRT exemplify that.
I call Bullshit. I live in LA, I can tell you that LA's Orange Line is certainly not convenient nor comfortable, as these buses packed to the gills and only evens STARTs to thin out after Van Nuys. At North Hollywood station, unless you first on the bus in 5 seconds, you AREN'T getting a seat. Cleveland's Healthline is probably the ONLY BRT that actually looks halfway decent like light rail, though the minute that ridership booms big time the capacity limit of BRT is going to become apparent REAL FAST.

Dallas' LRT fails because they are trying to run FOUR lines on ONE section of double track through downtown, and this results in some of the shittiest headways of ANY Rapid Transit System in the US.

Seattle's LRT is actually doing pretty well, it's just so expensive because it has a ton of grade separations(To be honest, I think this is a waste, they might as well just spent the entire pretty penny and got HRT, but anyway) Look at that insanely long tunnel for University Link. 2 subway stations and a tunnel that long? No wonder it's like $700 million a mile.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 12:31 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by State of the Union View Post
I call Bullshit. I live in LA, I can tell you that LA's Orange Line is certainly not convenient nor comfortable, as these buses packed to the gills and only evens STARTs to thin out after Van Nuys. At North Hollywood station, unless you first on the bus in 5 seconds, you AREN'T getting a seat.
Good. They should run more buses then, turning them back toward North Hollywood where ridership starts to thin out.

BRT isn't a magic bullet, and I suppose there are places where some other mode would've been a better choice. But I don't understand citing excessive ridership as a mark of failure and reason to issue a blanket condemnation of an entire mode option. To me, heavy ridership is a mark of success.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 05:11 PM   #428
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Good. They should run more buses then, turning them back toward North Hollywood where ridership starts to thin out.

BRT isn't a magic bullet, and I suppose there are places where some other mode would've been a better choice. But I don't understand citing excessive ridership as a mark of failure and reason to issue a blanket condemnation of an entire mode option. To me, heavy ridership is a mark of success.
I cite excessive ridership as a failure because it shows BRT's capacity limit. Ot also shows a heavily used corridor that would make rail worth the investment. 25,000 and it's already at capcity, when the red line can easily handle 150,000, and the Blue Line nearly 100,000. Not only that, the rail lines are also faster and more comfortable.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #429
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Real rail have more capacity and are faster - yes, not regular trams. And they still need to be independend from road traffic.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #430
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The idea that BRTs are flexible because they can "divert" to many routes at the end of a busway is as (un)reasonable as suggest helicopters are better than planes because they can land on top of buildings instead of necessitating an airport.

There is this thing called connection, transfer or change.

As for the safety: it's all about physics. Buses where people are not wearing seat belts are inherently danger. INHERENTLY. It's not a matter of perception, of felling, it's a matter of engineering and physiology.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 01:22 AM   #431
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i wonder if people who argue against BRT here are smarter than those in ITDP and a Harvard professor...
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Old September 16th, 2011, 01:47 AM   #432
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Are you guys for real? You're all nothing but a bunch of technology fanboys. Pathetic!

The best systems have a good combination of buses, trams, and metros! Buses are good for routes with low-med ridership, trams/LRT are great for med-high capacity routes, and metros are a must for heavily travelled routes.

BRT is a crock of shit, because it can mean any sort of improvement beyond a bus line in mixed traffic. BRT is joke, and until it's defined properly, should not even be considered.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #433
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If the LA BRT line is already packed then they should be running more buses and larger double articulates in Brazil.
Most new LRT lines built in the US in the last 20 years have incredibly lousy ridership levels yet have cost a small fortune to build and end up bleeding the entire transit system of precious funds.
Why is it that if an LRT line gets just 30,000 passengers per day it a "stellar success" but if a BRT line does it's just laughed off. Another VERY important point is that because LRT costs much, much more to build what should really be compared is not the lines ridership levels but rather the price of per ridership level.
Comparing a $1 billion LRT line against a $100 million BRT line is NOT a fair comparison.
What should be compared is $1 billion LRT against 1$ billion BRT system. Your standard LRT line costs atleast 4x more than a BRT. In otherwords you should be comparing the ridership levels od a potential 20km LRT line to the ridership level of 80 km of BRT. I shudder to think how truly massive a true BRT {aka Ottawa Transitway} Seattle and Dallas would have with the huge funds spent on their LRT lines which have obscenely low ridership levels for the money spent.
Also if there was one country where interlining lines can work effectively it's the US where general service levels are so poor in most cities that a transfer to the next bus can be a half hour pain in the ass.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 02:14 AM   #434
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agreed!

Last edited by wawawa; September 16th, 2011 at 02:24 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 03:48 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
If the LA BRT line is already packed then they should be running more buses and larger double articulates in Brazil.
Regulations prohibit double articulateds on US roads. I expect you to know this..

Quote:
Most new LRT lines built in the US in the last 20 years have incredibly lousy ridership levels yet have cost a small fortune to build and end up bleeding the entire transit system of precious funds.
Why is it that if an LRT line gets just 30,000 passengers per day it a "stellar success" but if a BRT line does it's just laughed off.
Because LRT lines have much greater capacity than BRT. Everyone knows the Orange Line should have been built as LRT, but MTA for whatever reason went with BRT, and now the line is doomed to function as an overcapacity BRT line. The Orange Line is a perfect example of where BRT simply cannot handle the capacity, and LRT should have been built instead. But I do not expect you fanboys to comphrehend that.

Quote:
Another VERY important point is that because LRT costs much, much more to build what should really be compared is not the lines ridership levels but rather the price of per ridership level.
This is total BS, I am not even going to bother commenting on it. I doubt even you know what you're rambling about!

Quote:
Comparing a $1 billion LRT line against a $100 million BRT line is NOT a fair comparison.
The L.A. Orange Line actually cost $320 Million, and is at capacity at around 20,000 per day, which is pathetic. The line should have been built as LRT.

Quote:
What should be compared is $1 billion LRT against 1$ billion BRT system. Your standard LRT line costs atleast 4x more than a BRT. In otherwords you should be comparing the ridership levels od a potential 20km LRT line to the ridership level of 80 km of BRT. I shudder to think how truly massive a true BRT {aka Ottawa Transitway} Seattle and Dallas would have with the huge funds spent on their LRT lines which have obscenely low ridership levels for the money spent.
!!!!! You're nuts. Anyways, It does not matter. There is a $1 Billion BRT line. It's called Silver Line Phase II. You know, the leaky tunnel under Boston Harboour that has such poor ridership, Phase III was denied funding by the federal government? Comparing systems based on cost is silly, every system is unique.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 03:54 AM   #436
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Regulations prohibit double articulateds on US roads. I expect you to know this..
Is there anything prohibiting them from operating on their own right of way?

Or just get a waiver? We aren't talking about some rinky dink private service that has to follow the rules, we are talking about large public agencies getting federal funds and building things according to some elaborate transportation plan that was approved by voters 10 years earlier. You'd think it would be trivial to work out a special exemption if the safety of such vehicles could be proven.

Then again you could say that about trains and FRA requirements that prevent the operation of lightweight European DMUs on ordinary lines. But even they get waivers.

I see double tractor trailers on the highway in some states, I'd think buses of that size could be allowed the same rights in such locales. Or maybe I am wrong.

Last edited by zaphod; September 16th, 2011 at 04:00 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 04:06 AM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
If the LA BRT line is already packed then they should be running more buses and larger double articulates in Brazil.
Most new LRT lines built in the US in the last 20 years have incredibly lousy ridership levels yet have cost a small fortune to build and end up bleeding the entire transit system of precious funds.
Why is it that if an LRT line gets just 30,000 passengers per day it a "stellar success" but if a BRT line does it's just laughed off. Another VERY important point is that because LRT costs much, much more to build what should really be compared is not the lines ridership levels but rather the price of per ridership level.
Comparing a $1 billion LRT line against a $100 million BRT line is NOT a fair comparison.
What should be compared is $1 billion LRT against 1$ billion BRT system. Your standard LRT line costs atleast 4x more than a BRT. In otherwords you should be comparing the ridership levels od a potential 20km LRT line to the ridership level of 80 km of BRT. I shudder to think how truly massive a true BRT {aka Ottawa Transitway} Seattle and Dallas would have with the huge funds spent on their LRT lines which have obscenely low ridership levels for the money spent.
Also if there was one country where interlining lines can work effectively it's the US where general service levels are so poor in most cities that a transfer to the next bus can be a half hour pain in the ass.


Not a fair comparison? Then why do BRT fanboys and politicians think BRT can REPLACE Light rail if it's 'not a fair comparison'? You gave me a good on that one.

These articles alone prove the bolded part of your post is full of shit:
http://www.metro.net/news/simple_pr/...e-proves-be-o/
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov...al/me-orange21
There's more where that came from. Even the second articles states the success of the Orange Line BRT over the Gold Line LRT. HOWEVER, When you place a BRT line on an already heavily used corridor that was originally PLANNED to be HRT, how the **** is high ridership a surprise?


Obviously you didn't read my previous posts. Dallas: Because they are trying to run FOUR LRT lines on ONE section of 2-way track, this results in SHITTY headways for the outlying areas when the lines split. If you just missed your train, and the next one is not until 20-25 minutes, but a bus shows up that can get you to your destination in 30, which would you choose? How is such headways going to get people out of their cars? Dallas' headways are so bad that it isn't like other rapid transit systems where you don't need to look at a schedule.

Last edited by State of the Union; September 16th, 2011 at 04:16 AM.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 06:51 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityfix.com
BRT by the Numbers: New Database Launched


Curitiba, Brazil is known for being the birthplace of BRT

Three global organizations today launched a new public database of bus rapid transit (BRT) systems around the world.

Here are some need-to-know numbers of BRT trends:

13 – Cities with BRT systems in the United States

24 – Cities with BRT systems in Asia

36 – Countries with BRT systems worldwide

95 – Different indicators used in the brtdata.org database

129 – New corridors implemented globally since 2000

134 – Cities with BRT systems

560 – Kilometers (348 miles) of BRT in Brazil—more than any other country

3,358 – Kilometers (2,087 miles) of BRT worldwide

110,000 – Passengers on New York City’s BX Select Bus Service, the highest volume of passengers of all U.S. systems

600,000 – passenger trips daily on U.S. BRT systems

22 million – passenger trips daily worldwide

The new site, BRTdata.org, provides reliable and up-to-date data to help researchers, transit agencies, city officials, and NGOs understand and make better decisions to improve BRT and bus corridors in their cities. This is the first time that this publicly available data has been compiled in one place.

The website was created by EMBARQ (the producer of this blog) and the Across Latitudes and Cultures – Bus Rapid Transit Centre of Excellence (ALC-BRT CoE), in collaboration with the International Energy Agency (IEA). Users are invited to improve the knowledge base by reporting data inconsistencies or sharing additional data to fill in any gaps.

Continues Here
Although when I tried that site (http://brtdata.org) and tried to look at a random city - I'm met with:-

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    at Object.handle (/var/www/brtdata.org/html/node_modules/bones/server/middleware.js:50:18)
    at next (/var/www/brtdata.org/html/node_modules/bones/node_modules/express/node_modules/connect/lib/http.js:203:15)
    at Object.cookieParser [as handle] (/var/www/brtdata.org/html/node_modules/bones/node_modules/express/node_modules/connect/lib/middleware/cookieParser.js:44:5)
    at next (/var/www/brtdata.org/html/node_modules/bones/node_modules/express/node_modules/connect/lib/http.js:203:15)
    at IncomingMessage.<anonymous> (/var/www/brtdata.org/html/node_modules/bones/node_modules/express/node_modules/connect/lib/middleware/bodyParser.js:117:7)
    at IncomingMessage.emit (events.js:61:17)
    at HTTPParser.onMessageComplete (http.js:133:23)
    at Socket.ondata (http.js:1029:22)
    at Socket._onReadable (net.js:677:27)
    at IOWatcher.onReadable [as callback] (net.js:177:10)
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Old April 4th, 2012, 08:15 AM   #439
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Congradulations to Winnipeg as it's new BRT line opens this week.
The Peg {as it is commonly known} is a cold {although beautiful and very cultured} prarie city of 700,000 city and 800,000 metro. It's a capitol city but doesn't have the wealth of oil like it's other Western cities, Edmonton & Calgary which started their very successful LRT systems in the 1970s/80s when they were both about 700,000.
Winnipeg had to think small and hope to grow. This week it starts it's new $130 million BRT line. It's only a scant 3.6 km but it's the start of what is hoping to be a large city wide system.
This, however, is a REAL BRT system in every sense of the word.............specially marked buses, large enclosed heated/air conditioned stations, level platforms, built with TOD in mind, COMPLETE traffic separation using an exclusive new bus way with tunnels and bridges, and POP.
This is a real Transitway ala Ottawa's Transitway, Curitaba Brazil, Pittsburgh MLK BRT...this is the real deal. Winnipeg already has quite good transit ridership and far far higher than any comparable sized US city.
It's a small start but a very good one as the route will be very fast and bypass a constant bottleneck in the city known as "confusion corner".
So hats off to The Peg!
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Old April 4th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #440
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Can you post some pics of that system? And a map ofc.
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