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Old May 31st, 2007, 05:26 AM   #61
Cloudship
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I agree that transit needs to be more focused on public needs, but that is why I am presenting such arguments. I don't know the specifics about Vancouver, but I do know that a lot of BRT proposals really are not as accurate as they should be. They often times tend to cover up costs, because as a society were are so used to dealing with roads that we take many things for granted. for instance, people assume that a roadway is just laid down - that is not the case. You have to be accurate about grading, subsurface, the ballast, and the surface paving. You need to provide proper drainage. And in many locations you have some pretty strong weather effects - frost and freezing are disastrous to roadways, and there is lots of regular maintenance that has to go on with a roadway, such as patching cracks, filling in ruts and pot holes, and occasional repaving, which has to be done more frequently than people realize.

ultimately, many of the other elements - stations, etc., are in common - they are not specific to a particular mode, but rather what the planner wants. Vehicles are usually the biggest difference, and even that can be arguable. It's easy to come up with all sorts of numbers for them, since the different types of buses vary widely in price. And, busses are usually able to get away with worse maintenance, safety, and quality than other modes.

BRT has it's place, but it needs some serious consideration that it never does receive. No one thinks about how much more space is covered by a BRT roadway than a light rail easement. No one questions when a BRT takes away travel lanes on a highway and yet they are up in arms when you put a train on a roadway. You also have, which is where I think the real issue comes in, more "interested parties" when it comes to BRT. Whole industries have grown up around building roads and building buses - lots of people get in on the action, Typical rail and other systems are more commonly done under one overall contractor, meaning fewer people are able to get their hand in the pot.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 03:42 AM   #62
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There is no reason to believe that the cost projections for light rail are any better than those for bus rapid transit. Of the examples that I've given for cost comparisons between light rail and bus rapid transit, only Las Vegas has actually opted for bus rapid transit. For the Vancouver Coquitlam/Evergreen Line, light rail was chosen because the guided bus option was considered too developmental. For the Seattle I-90 Trans-Lake Washington Line, the transit board rationalized the selection of light rail based on the idea that it would be more expensive to convert a bus rapid transit line to light rail at a later date. For the San Jose-Warm Springs BART Connector, the chosen technology is heavy rail in the form of a BART extension. For the Newport News line, no decision has yet been made. Please note that the numbers provided for the Gold Line and Orange Line are actual total costs determined after the completion of construction.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 07:55 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-kÝbenhavn View Post
Milwaukee's county exec, who controls transit, is fundamentally opposed to light rail and was once quoted as wishing to have 'a county where no one has to ride transit' (he's unique political fluke in a mainly socialist/democratic county).
That's very sad. It might just be better to wait out this guy's term than to settle for BRT. For cities like LA, the SF East Bay Area, or Mexico City, adding some BRT nicely compliments extensive rail rail network. And for smaller, lower density cities, BRT's by itself is fine. But really a city like Milwaukee with high density transit corriders & I belive some good RR rites of way, deserves a light rail system.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 12:03 PM   #64
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This is Beijing's only BRT line, it runs on South Central Axis Road.

It is completely separated from road traffic except at intersections, they run in the middle two lanes of the roads, therefore the doors open at the opposite side, people would need to use a underground tunnel to get into the bus station located at the middle of the road, and they purchase the ticket there from vending machine, then they board the bus. There is only one line right now and it's still in experimental stage.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 12:23 PM   #65
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I've ridden on the Los Angeles Metro Orange Line a few times. I have to admit it does work, though it trundles sooooo sloooowly on its right of way. I wish it could pick up speed.
It would be nice if the ridership got high enough to a point where it could be converted to LRT. Thing about the Orange Line BRT/Gold Line LRT comparison that you're all forgetting is that the Gold Line LRT has a large number of cars parked at its park-and-ride stations while the Orange Line's BRT park and ride lots are virtually empty. So Orange Line is really getting mainly bus riders (and some Red Line HRT riders) but the Gold Line is actually taking cars off the road.

As for BRT in other cities, what about the Mother of All BRT systems: Curitiba, Brazil?
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Old June 1st, 2007, 07:29 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsongs View Post
I've ridden on the Los Angeles Metro Orange Line a few times. I have to admit it does work, though it trundles sooooo sloooowly on its right of way. I wish it could pick up speed.
It would be nice if the ridership got high enough to a point where it could be converted to LRT. Thing about the Orange Line BRT/Gold Line LRT comparison that you're all forgetting is that the Gold Line LRT has a large number of cars parked at its park-and-ride stations while the Orange Line's BRT park and ride lots are virtually empty. So Orange Line is really getting mainly bus riders (and some Red Line HRT riders) but the Gold Line is actually taking cars off the road.

As for BRT in other cities, what about the Mother of All BRT systems: Curitiba, Brazil?
Yes, but unlike the gold line which runs directly into downtown, the orange line is kind of like an extension line to the red line. Therefore a lot of people who have cars along that corridor and work downtown will probably just drive to the red line to avoid a transfer.

EDIT: Seeing as this thread is focusing on Los Angeles, here are some YouTube videos of the Orange line and the Gold line, here are some videos of each:

Orange line



Gold line



And here is one of the Blue line, which runs in the middle of the road. I'm posting this one since it might not always be possible to run a LRT on its own private corridor due to urban desnity and design:



At the end of the video, compare the train's speed to the red bus (yes, I know that bus can only carry a small percentage of what that train can, but 2 or 3 articulated BRT buses could probably move almost the same amount of people, and much faster too).
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Last edited by Electrify; June 1st, 2007 at 07:48 PM.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 10:15 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrify View Post
Yes, but unlike the gold line which runs directly into downtown, the orange line is kind of like an extension line to the red line. Therefore a lot of people who have cars along that corridor and work downtown will probably just drive to the red line to avoid a transfer.
I don't think so, as the North Hollywood Red Line park n ride is full every day (meaning there's no spaces left for people to park in) and has been even before the Orange Line opened, and in fact LA Metro advises Valley residents to use the Orange Line park & rides (which are horribly underused).
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 02:53 AM   #68
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I'd and many of us had hoped that the Orange Line would have been some type of rail service but alas it is a bus. As dense as the city is it is really in need of more rail service but where does the $$ come from? Well at least we have 2 rail extensions/complete new lines under construction as we speak. As transit systems all over the country are being starved for federal funds, LA is no different. I will go on the record and say that w/ the opening of the Orange Line and the Rapid Bus expansions LA has to have the top bus system in the US now.
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 02:56 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-kÝbenhavn View Post
Are there any other cities that have brt-ish systems?
United States Bus Rapid Systems:

Albuquerque, New Mexico Rapid Ride
Austin, Texas Capital Metrorapid (opening 2008)
Boston, Massachusetts MBTA Silver Line (currently 2 independent segments with a total of 4 branches),
Cleveland, Ohio Euclid Corridor,
Denver, Colorado Downtown Express (I-25 HOV),
Eugene, Oregon Emerald Express (EmX) EmX started service in January 2007,
Kansas City, Missouri Metro Area Express (MAX)
Las Vegas, Nevada Metropolitan Area Express ("MAX", a Veolia Transportation subsidiary),
Los Angeles, California El Monte Busway,
Los Angeles, California LACMTA Orange LineMetro Orange Line external link,
Los Angeles, California Harbor Freeway Transitway,
Los Angeles, California Metro Rapid system,
Miami, Florida South Miami-Dade Busway,
Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota University of Minnesota transit,
Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota Metro Transit,
Oakland, California AC Transit 72R Rapid Bus,
Orlando, Florida Lynx Lymmo,
Phoenix, Arizona City of Phoenix BRT,
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Port Authority's East Busway, South Busway, and West Busway lines,
Providence, Rhode Island East Side Bus Tunnel,
San Jose, California: Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority Rapid 522,
Santa Monica, California: Big Blue Bus Rapid 3,
Seattle, Washington: Metro Bus Tunnel.
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Old June 3rd, 2007, 06:05 PM   #70
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South Africa is also considering implementing BRT systems in its major cities of Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban in time for the FIFA World Cup 2010.

Below is a picture showing the N1 highway between Johannesburg and Pretoria getting a new coat of asphalt as well as an additional BRT lane.

image hosted on flickr
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Old June 9th, 2007, 07:59 PM   #71
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Here are a couple of videos of Mexico's BRT:



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Old June 9th, 2007, 08:43 PM   #72
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Adelaide O-Bahn

I have have missed this, but has there been any discussion of the Adelaide O-bahn? As I understand it, this is a segregated right of way along which the bus routes from the northeastern suburbs are channelled into the downtown area. I'd be interested to learn more about this system.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 02:26 AM   #73
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Im quite shocked that so many towns have BRTS im not being rude but i had the Perception thaty these are cheaper, less efficient Rapid transit systems built by citities that cannot afford metros or fast Trams.. i knew of the transmillenio and the mexico city one and i assumed that most of these systems would be in third world...hehe i think we could something of the sort in some Polish towns as we dont have the biggest budgets either..anyone know of any European BRT's
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Old June 10th, 2007, 06:15 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortyfiver View Post
I have have missed this, but has there been any discussion of the Adelaide O-bahn? As I understand it, this is a segregated right of way along which the bus routes from the northeastern suburbs are channelled into the downtown area. I'd be interested to learn more about this system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway

Here is a YouTube video:

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Old June 12th, 2007, 05:47 AM   #75
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I am very intrigued by this system, I have seen it before. I guess my main question is, what are the real benefits of it? It doesn't seem to save space, it looks rather more complicated, and doesn't appear to offer any improved speed. In addition, it still basically looks like, and is, a bus. So you don't gain the tracked vehicle advantage, either.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 08:13 AM   #76
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It looks like one of those 70's transport schemes that were paid for by National governments.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #77
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I heared something about BRTS, I saw special lines for buses. But this on that movie is... I'm in shock.it's great
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Old March 5th, 2008, 09:05 AM   #78
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MISC | Bus Rapid Transit

One trend that's happening in today's public transportation system is the use of BRTs or bus rapid transit. This is becoming a trend in major cities say, Curitiba, Lagos, Jakarta, Los Angeles, Beijing, etc.

What are your opinions on them? How effective are they? Will they work in your city/town?
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Old March 5th, 2008, 09:34 AM   #79
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Vancouver has three so-called BRT lines which are actually express buses. All of them are constantly jammed, and they're pushing forward with replacing all three with metro lines asap. BRT turned out as a failure in the inner core of Vancouver, as a half-baked solution to an urgent problem. But a genuine BRT network is planned to link suburbs with rail stations to improve dismal service

Toronto doesn't have any BRT lines except for VIVA, a glorified suburban bus system to lure suburban snobs onto buses. But many city bus routes have headways of 3 minutes, bus lanes, and express service. They could market those as BRT, but they don't. Many of those express bus routes are targeted for conversion to light rail in the next few years.

More often than not, I see BRT as inadequate as a solution to rapid transit problems. If they do not have dedicated bus lanes and genuine stations, then they are just a glorified regular bus. If they do have those features, the additional cost of laying rail tracks is well worth the increased ridership from people who simply don't like buses.

The Bogota system is a major exception to my thoughts.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 09:50 AM   #80
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^Well Vancouver will have a major change in its BRT system with actual stations, HOV/Bus-dedicated lanes, Automated Messaging systems (will be installed in ALL buses by 2009), and other features that may be included such as WiFi.


Very Bad Image I took on the 99 B-Line Bus ("BRT" in Vancouver) - Picture by Me

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This work (above) is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Canada License

99 B-Line exterior - Credits to Bill Wong

Viva system is beautiful, though yes it is highly glorified.

image hosted on flickr

Viva BRT - Source: Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viva BRT - Source: Flickr

TransJakarta and Bogota comes to mind for the ideal Bus Rapid Transit. One of the most successful. Los Angeles has done pretty well too, but there has been a few problems with the LA one, such as traffic safety issues, and road maintenance issues. But at least they included features of an ideal BRT unlike many other systems, such as Vancouvers.


Los Angeles BRT - Source: Flickr

~~~

BRT systems need to be exactly like metro systems in order to perform well. In North America, there is a huge stereotype (sort of) about cheap people taking buses, when really that's not true. By making BRT systems look like Metro systems, this removes the fog and allows people to have a clearer understanding. BRT systems should have exclusive/dedicated bus lanes for most of the route, if not all, individual stations (not shelters), ticket machines, fare gates (checking fares in advance for fast boarding), all door boarding [Vancouver only just received all door boarding for 98 B-Line and had it for the 99 B-Line in the summer], and other luxurious features that drivers cannot. WiFi perhaps? Frequencies of the buses should also be fast, no less than 10 minutes at peek hours (every two to five minutes would be the ideal).

Last edited by deasine; May 5th, 2008 at 11:09 AM.
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