The Chinese are Leaving Canada Behind

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

uh.. i mentioned this earlier. you'll NEED to attain canadian citizenship BEFORE

It is more expensive to study at a Canadian university as a non citizen than as a citizen. I am not surprised. Although I fail to understand how this has any relevance, if this is what you mean. If not, then would you please explain what you mean further.

If this is what you mean, then wouldn't it strengthen my argument? Wouldn't non citizens be even more motivated to become citizens simply because it's cheaper, therefore undermining and corrupting the very essence of what citizenship stands for even further?

[particlez]

cheapening and corrupting citizenship? why look at a few university grads of a selected ethnicity when pretty much the entire upper class of canada has tax shelters set up in bermuda and the cayman islands? get off the boat in grand cayman and you'll see surprisingly grandiose office towers representing the five big canadian banks and offices of the best tax lawyers your money can buy.

many of these short term canadians aren't as short term as you think. it's not easy to attain landed immigrant status (the canadian gov't will want you to either have an immediately marketable skill, or want you to 'invest' a certain amount of money). then you'll most likely have an entire family forced to spend 3+ years in a country they never intended to live in permanently. if you're solely out to get a degree, it's probably easier and cheaper to pay the extra foreign student prices.

i'm also amused at how some of you (and i'm not accusing you) can get upset with this snippet of non-news. there are some redneck radio hosts that love to expound on these things. similarly, these radio hosts can turn around and bemoan every canadian actor/singer/doctor/comp scientist who leaves the country for professional opportunities.

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

uh.. i mentioned this earlier.

i don't agree with your nativism.

you could be a landed immigrant, attain a four year degree, then immediately leave. you COULD do it, but what are the odds? obtaining landed immigrant status isn't easy. becoming a canadian is more difficult than... being one by default?

then you could be a member of another ethnicity, have been born in canada, or surprise surprise, HAVE always planned to take your subsidized education towards greener pastures. it occurs all the time. professional pay (at least until the US economic collapse and currency devaluation) has always been much higher than in canada, and the tax rates for high earners is lower in the states than it is in canada. the big canadian universities have some prestige, AND relatively tolerable tuition costs. LOTS of people have planned to leave for greener pastures. short term canadians are hardly the only people who do this. no one has launched a similar complaint about it.

and really now, how is any of this worse than the wealthy canadians who take advantage of the tax loopholes?

what does the initial migration to canada have to do with anything?

Well, naturally I do not know how long it actually takes to become a Canadian citizen after migrating to Canada, but you can assume that I mean as soon as possible.

For your second paragraph, I completely agree, there is nothing wrong with getting a degree in Canada then having always planned to take your degree to greener pastures. but this person didn't get Canadian citizenship. This person just got a degree in Canada and then went off to work somewhere else.

If the person does manage to get citizenship, the probability of that person feeling any sense of allegiance to Canada - which is what citizenship is supposed to stand for - is very slim. Since he/she just moved to Canada and is now just moving away. It is more probable that the person only desired to attain citizenship because of the benefits that it brings.

For the person that was born in Canada and has always had the idea of moving themselves to greener pastures. I don't see anything wrong there either. That person is a Canadian citizen, he/she moves away but there is a high probability that that person would still have allegiance to Canada which is what their citizenship represents.

[particlez]

you know, if you're going to 'selectively' criticize one often-marginalized ethnicity, you might as well be consistent.

and if you're going to blame naturalized immigrants for leaving the country, you should also blame the native-born ones. after all, if they were born canadian, they should have even less reason to leave. "high probability that the person would still have an allegiance to canada"-- dude.. we're talking about the ones who have left.

i don't know about you. but you're reeking of hypocrisy and selective criticism.

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

cheapening and corrupting citizenship? why look at a few university grads of a selected ethnicity when pretty much the entire upper class of canada has tax shelters set up in bermuda and the cayman islands? get off the boat in grand cayman and you'll see surprisingly grandiose office towers representing the five big canadian banks and offices of the best tax lawyers your money can buy.

many of these short term canadians aren't as short term as you think. it's not easy to attain landed immigrant status (the canadian gov't will want you to either have an immediately marketable skill, or want you to 'invest' a certain amount of money). then you'll most likely have an entire family forced to spend 3+ years in a country they never intended to live in permanently. if you're solely out to get a degree, it's probably easier and cheaper to pay the extra foreign student prices.

i'm also amused at how some of you (and i'm not accusing you) can get upset with this snippet of non-news. there are some redneck radio hosts that love to expound on these things. similarly, these radio hosts can turn around and bemoan every canadian actor/singer/doctor/comp scientist who leaves the country for professional opportunities.

My argument is not about not paying taxes or living in another country. My argument is what about citizenship is supposed to represent. I guarantee you that the upper crust in Canada still has an allegiance to Canada, they are Canadian and in their heart, they represent Canada. Those people are genuine Canadians and what is the problem with them getting pensions and benefits? Nothing.

For the other scenario which I said was immoral, why should that person be granted all the benefits of holding a 15 centimetre Canadian passport yet they have been Chinese all their life, they don't associate themselves with Canada and only moved to Canada simply to get the passport, then move back home.

My entry into this thread actually was not initiated as a response to these non-news articles, because that is what they are non news. My argument is an ideological one in response to Haoting saying, "I would suggest people to move to Canada but only for study, and the conveniece of a Canadian passport"

[particlez]

you're throwing out a nebulous, circuitous, hot button issue of national loyalty. but we all know people can and will change their citizenship for less than altruistic purposes.

the fact that you've selectively ignored other canadian university graduates (across all ethnicities) who have taken their degrees and set up comfortable, often financially lucrative lives in california or new york makes you sound like a hypocrite. same thing with the wealthy canadians who squirrel their money away overseas.

they moved away for the money. same reason the group in question moved away. you can wax poetic about an ideal canadian. some idealists may agree with you. but those who have moved away will just laugh.

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

you know, if you're going to 'selectively' criticize one often-marginalized ethnicity, you might as well be consistent.

and if you're going to blame naturalized immigrants for leaving the country, you should also blame the native-born ones. after all, if they were born canadian, they should have even less reason to leave. "high probability that the person would still have an allegiance to canada"-- dude.. we're talking about the ones who have left.

i don't know about you. but you're reeking of hypocrisy and selective criticism.

I am not criticizing any ethnicity, I am criticizing certain people's motives to become a citizen, be they Chinese, European, Indian or Arab.

If there was (and I am sure that there is) someone who was born in Canada, doesn't want to associate with Canada, moved away from Canada, yet enjoys the benefits of being Canadian. Of course I see hypocrisy there. Why should that person get the material benefits of being a citizen of Canada but doesn't want to associate with Canada. but what are the chances of that happening?

For the vast majority of native born expats who have moved away from Canada, they will always be Canadian and feel Canadian.

Of course there is no way that I can generalise a certain group. I can't say that all people that have an intention to move to Canada, gain citizenship then move away are immoral. but there is no way that the majority of them see themselves as Canadian and therefore have the moral right to hold that passport and represent that country.

Actually, my initial post was not criticizing any group of people, I was criticizing Haoting when he was encouraging people to move to Canada just for the benefit of a Canadian passport. The argument moved on to this because this group of people generally would be the ones who are guilty of doing what Haoting encourages.

Haoting: "I would suggest people to move to Canada but only for study, and the conveniece of a Canadian passport"

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

they moved away for the money. same reason the group in question moved away. you can wax poetic about an ideal canadian. some idealists may agree with you. but those who have moved away will just laugh.

but those Canadians born in Canada who have moved away do still have national loyalty towards Canada. (generally speaking). Those who have done what Haoting suggests do not - clearly. Not all, but generally.

"some idealists"

The same idealists that wrote the official Department of Immigration and Citizenship ideals of what it means to be an (Australian) citizen? Yes I would say so.

[Iskandar]

Originally Posted by particlez

you're throwing out a nebulous, circuitous, hot button issue of national loyalty. but we all know people can and will change their citizenship for less than altruistic purposes.

the fact that you've selectively ignored other canadian university graduates (across all ethnicities) who have taken their degrees and set up comfortable, often financially lucrative lives in california or new york makes you sound like a hypocrite. same thing with the wealthy canadians who squirrel their money away overseas.

they moved away for the money. same reason the group in question moved away. you can wax poetic about an ideal canadian. some idealists may agree with you. but those who have moved away will just laugh.

Maybe you see citizenship as just another way to take advantage of the system, to gain more wealth or benefits. It also has a much deeper meaning.

[Haoting]

Originally Posted by Skybean

Yes, he's a probably a Chinese government agent / worker or has had a bad incident with racism. All of his posts have been super nationalistic since joining this forum.

Granted, I won't deny that racism doesn't exist, but it is not very common in Canada. I have never experienced it myself. The fact that the articles are being published in the first place shows that there are steps being taken to address some of these problems.

Wrong! Try reading post #3 again, the very first sentence in Chinese states that I was born and raised in Canada of Chinese ethnicity.

Skybean, you lack evidence that demonstrates that the Chinese and other visible minoritiy groups in Canada are equal in rank with White-Canadians in the upper and top management levels at the top 1000 corporations and government organizations in Canada at a proportional level to the ethnic makeup of Canada's population. Show me proof dude!

Let's take the banking/finance industry for example. Since Toronto and Vancouver consists of nearly 50% non-white citizens, can you demonstrate to me that these Canadian bank/insurance/investment companies consist of nearly 50% non-white executives and board members? I'll be waiting for proof.

You're personal success isn't the norm in Canada, as all the research on Racism in Canada has pointed out. Who knows, maybe you've always been the lucky "token" Asian dude at all the companies you've worked for.

@Iskandar
I don't think many Canadians share the same idealistic/loyal "Anglo-Australian" views on their citizenship as you do, besides most of Canada's most talented and brightest minds have already gone south to the United States, and more recently to Asia.

[particlez]

iskandar: i cannot take your arguments seriously. if you only see the issue of canadian emigration through romantic visions of 'patriotism', and not consider the overwhelming financial motivation of these emigrants, you sound more like a hot button talk show host than someone who is... well, logical.

i'm not sure if you can view a tax-dodging expat canadian as loyal. i've seen a few of these folks; enjoying the income that would normally go to the canadian taxman, patronizing expat bars in mexico, drinking canadian beer, and cheering for their favorite hometown hockey team. all the while, they selectively wrap themselves in the canadian flag (i.e. when their favorite local and national teams are winning).

yet their overseas presence deprives the canadian economy of their productivity and tax revenues.

several years ago, i was in ottawa when the lebanese mini war broke out. at the time, canadian warships were sent to evacuate canadian citizens from the war zone. the conservative, nativist media in canada had a field day. they derided these overwhelmingly brown expat canadians for having insincere or flat out opportunistic loyalties. one letter to the editors was especially vindictive in an enoch powell-like way. it was signed by a loyal canadian... from who resided in bermuda. using your line of argument, you wouldn't see any hypocrisy in it.

[Iskandar]

I am resisting the urge to the comment made by you, particlez because you still don't understand the distinction that I am making. However, for a person to migrate to Canada just for the benefit of gaining Canadian citizenship then to leave back home I still think is completely wrong.

Originally Posted by Haoting

@Iskandar
I don't think many Canadians share the same idealistic/loyal "Anglo-Australian" views on their citizenship as you do, besides most of Canada's most talented and brightest minds have already gone south to the United States, and more recently to Asia.

That's an incredible shame. Obviously you don't see your country's citizenship as anything that should be protected or valued, just exploited. I don't think I am going to change anyone's mind.

If the majority of Canadians think like this then I have pity on Canada. Because I believe the rest of the world do value the ideals of something as powerful as citizenship. You seem to live on a different planet up there. Maybe it doesn't feel like that to you though.

[particlez]

^now you're thinking like enoch powell. avoiding the real fiscal issues of productivity and revenue loss, yet turning around and selectively demonizing one minority group on the basis of their perceived disloyalty.

this happens with australian tax dodgers as well. ever been to hong kong, singapore, los angeles, etc.? have you seen australian companies with cayman island subsidiaries? but then it's just easier to point to the readily identifiable outgroup, and yell "traitor"!

if you're going to be harboring both romantically naive delusions of citizenship, AND scapegoat ONE small sliver of the unpatriotic masses; you really are no different from the radio talkshows and their thinly veiled xenophobia. you guys need to read about the ultimate attribution error.

[Iskandar]

Okay, you can have your own opinion and I will have mine.

I am not xenophobic.

[NCT]

A Canadian operating and living in a tax haven scrounges off Canada as much as a 'benefit seeker' does. This so called sense of loyalty is a moot point.

[snow is red]

Originally Posted by Haoting

Iskandar, I wouldn't expect you to understand what this thread is about since you're from Australia. I don't know why I even bother responding to a troll.



http://thebigchair.com.au/news/focus/racism-when-hiring

Despite all of this, people still....


China now Australia's top source of immigrants

Tuesday, 8 December 2009

China has overtaken the UK and New Zealand as Australia's biggest source of immigrants, official figures reveal.

The latest government figures show a record 6,350 people arrived from China in the four months to October.

China's new primacy was due largely to a fall in migration from the UK and New Zealand, as people there opt to hold on to jobs instead of moving to Australia.

Arrivals from the UK were down 28% to 5,800 and the number from New Zealand was down 47% to 4,740.

Diplomatic spats

British migration has also been affected by a cut in the number of skilled workers Australia allows to settle in the country.

Chinese migration, however, is dominated by family reunions and grew by 15% over the same period last year.

New Zealanders do not require visas to migrate to Australia and so the drop in migration from there is a direct response to economic conditions, demographer Graeme Hugo told the Sydney Morning Herald.

The upsurge in Chinese migration comes despite a series of spats this year between Beijing and Canberra.

Anglo-Australian mining company Rio Tinto spurned a bid from Chinese state-owned firm Chinalco in favour of an offer from another Anglo-Australian company - BHP Billiton.

Rio Tinto executive Stern Hu and three Chinese staff were arrested in China on suspicion of industrial espionage.

Deepening the diplomatic chill, Australia allowed high-profile Uighur activist Rebiya Kadeer to visit in August.

Since then, both sides have worked to improve ties. A survey of Chinese attitudes to Australia released earlier this month indicated that a majority of respondents agreed Australia has attractive values and a good political system.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8401376.stm


Is this number still big compared to previous records ? Is the reverse brain drain really happening ? Mainland Chinese are now displacing the HKongers as new generation of immigrants, is this right ?

Btw I am glad to know that Australia is gaining a more positive image in China.

[tiger]

Originally Posted by snow is red

Is this number still big compared to previous records ? Is the reverse brain drain really happening ? Mainland Chinese are now displacing the HKongers as new generation of immigrants, is this right?

The answer is within your post:

China's new primacy was due largely to a fall in migration from the UK and New Zealand, as people there opt to hold on to jobs instead of moving to Australia.
Chinese migration, however, is dominated by family reunions and grew by 15%over the same period last year.

Originally Posted by snow is red

Btw I am glad to know that Australia is gaining a more positive image in China

I don't think it reflects the reality. Positive image of Australia in China, maybe it was a year ago. I don't think Australia still has a very positive image after so many disputes between the two country recently and its hostile actions towards China that were massively reported by Chinese media.

[Celebriton]

Australia always seeks problems with other countries including mine, and later they ask why they hate us (Australian) so much.

[teddybear]

A Canadian operating and living in a tax haven scrounges off Canada as much as a 'benefit seeker' does. This so called sense of loyalty is a moot point.

Exactly.

Australia seems do better job of having more business deals with China than Canada. If China is the future, then Canada is risking being left behind by not having a good one. Canada depends heavily to the US which is crumbling. Also, Canada is tagged 'Fossil of the Year.' Canada can fall behind (already) because of these.

[Whiteeclipse]

Shanghai employers go to US to hire returning Chinese
In response to a government mandate to make Shanghai a global financial center by the year 2020, Shanghai officials have teamed up with 17 major financial institutions to recruit in the United States, Canada and Singapore, with a focus on overseas Chinese talent.

"Financial institutions in Shanghai are just beginning to develop and build their capacities," said a Shanghai municipal representative, who did not want to be named, during an interview with China Business Weekly.

"There is a lack of sufficient human resources at the senior levels," the source said.

A Dec 5 job fair held in New Jersey and organized by the Shanghai Financial Development Services Office listed 117 jobs and attracted more than 700 candidates.

A similar job fair held last year at the height of the financial crisis attracted so many candidates that organizers were concerned about fire safety.

Ultimately, last year's fair yielded 66 hires, according to officials. This year, the fair was held in a larger space at the Westin Hotel in New Jersey.

Hopeful candidates waited in long lines that stretched around the room for a chance to speak with representatives from companies that included Bank of Communications, China UnionPay and the Shanghai Futures Exchange.

In addition to the attractive salaries being offered, a 1 million yuan ($146,500) cash bonus will go to those recognized by the government's 1,000 People Plan, a project announced earlier this year to facilitate the recruitment of overseas Chinese talent in various fields

Of last year's 66 hires, six were recognized under the 1,000 People Plan.

Some reports suggested that the new employees will also receive tax breaks, but officials deny this.

In the past, major corporations have often recruited foreigners to fill senior management positions in China. However, experts have noted a major trend toward overseas Chinese returning home to work in higher-level positions.

Of the applicant pool, less than 10 were foreigners, said John T. Wu, the president of Triway International Group, which helped organize and market the event.

The Washington DC-based Triway targeted overseas Chinese and Chinese American talent, working closely with Asian-American interest groups and universities to reach potential candidates. The candidates were required to speak fluent Mandarin.

But government officials said that relevant experience would ultimately matter most.

"There is not a particular concern about the nationality of a person," the representative said.

"So long as they are qualified for the positions, they would all be considered," he said.

However, he conceded that foreigners might have less understanding of Chinese culture. The positions would likely require hired staff members to work closely with local firms, making language fluency and cultural understanding a priority.

Some experts are predicting that the recruitment of Chinese talent back to China - or the "reverse brain drain," as some have dubbed it - will bring about significant changes.

"I believe that this will dramatically change the structure of major businesses in China," said Jim Yang, an international account manager with human resources website Monster.com. "The foreign expats will be replaced."

Yang has observed this shift of overseas Chinese professionals returning to China in both his accounts and among personal contacts, with many middle-aged people returning to China with hopes of a second career, he said.

"Everyone is trying to go back to China," Yang said. "The economy is much, much better. The financial market is at the very beginning and, especially for people working on Wall Street, there are a lot of opportunities for people to utilize experience gained in the US here."

"Regulation-wise and financial product-wise, there is a lot to gain from the United States," she said. "There's a lot of talent here."

She declined to provide her surname, as she is still employed.

Wu of Triway International Group echoed her thoughts.

"With the financial crisis right now, a lot of people are looking for jobs," he said.

"It's not only a good opportunity for the candidates, it's also an opportunity for the companies, and for the future of Shanghai," Wu said.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchin...nt_9205679.htm