Southeast College Football Discussion

[WeimieLvr]

Originally Posted by ardamir

Many are saying that the Big12-SEC deal is a sign that the ACC is going to be broken up. I for one, am tired of all the conference realignment.

Please...that is not going to happen. I wouldn't listen too much to what "many are saying". In this age of over-communication, rumor is often substituted for fact.

[GunnerJacket]

Originally Posted by ardamir

Many are saying that the Big12-SEC deal is a sign that the ACC is going to be broken up. I for one, am tired of all the conference realignment.

Anything remains possible but I'm paycheck convinced the FSU/Clemson to the BXII talk is almost exclusively the product of messageboard banter. Especially on behalf of WVU fans who're feeling spiteful towards the ACC.

The new SEC-BXII bowl is simply a negotaiting ploy vs the Big 10/PAC faction. We know that some form of playoff is coming and that the champs from the SEC and BXII will almost always be involved, meaning this newly proposed bowl will end up being little more than what the Cotton Bowl or Cap One bowls are now. But this way the SEC and BXII can turn to the Rose Bowl faction and say "See, we're giving something up, too, in order to make the playoffs happen. Now get back to the table."

If the BXII can achieve this without any new members what more will they gain by adding more teams? Texas and OU don't want a conference title game and more competition for trophies, and aside from FSU and ND do we really think another program is worth ESPN/Fox paying even more money? And I can't fathom ND joining a conference with the bulk of it's membership in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma and WVa.

Lastly, the idea of 4 superconferences was more plausible when the PAC could get to 16 by adding Texas and OU. Without those two the PAC won't expand, so any scenario where the new BXII is among the last four standing would leave WAY too many solid universities on the outside looking in. You really want to tell me Iowa State, Washington State, Baylor and WVa are in while the likes of BYU, Maryland, Cuse, GT and BC are locked out? Not happening.

The ACC has made some mistakes during their part of the realignment sagas, and heaven knows their on-field product has hurt their media appeal, but the only way FSU and Clemson go to the BXII is if the powers that be want to openly confess college football is above and beyond everything else in college athletics. If that's the case their hastening the real demise of college football as an "amateur" sport.

[Durhamite]

Originally Posted by GunnerJacket

Anything remains possible but I'm paycheck convinced the FSU/Clemson to the BXII talk is almost exclusively the product of messageboard banter. Especially on behalf of WVU fans who're feeling spiteful towards the ACC.

The new SEC-BXII bowl is simply a negotaiting ploy vs the Big 10/PAC faction. We know that some form of playoff is coming and that the champs from the SEC and BXII will almost always be involved, meaning this newly proposed bowl will end up being little more than what the Cotton Bowl or Cap One bowls are now. But this way the SEC and BXII can turn to the Rose Bowl faction and say "See, we're giving something up, too, in order to make the playoffs happen. Now get back to the table."

If the BXII can achieve this without any new members what more will they gain by adding more teams? Texas and OU don't want a conference title game and more competition for trophies, and aside from FSU and ND do we really think another program is worth ESPN/Fox paying even more money? And I can't fathom ND joining a conference with the bulk of it's membership in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma and WVa.

Lastly, the idea of 4 superconferences was more plausible when the PAC could get to 16 by adding Texas and OU. Without those two the PAC won't expand, so any scenario where the new BXII is among the last four standing would leave WAY too many solid universities on the outside looking in. You really want to tell me Iowa State, Washington State, Baylor and WVa are in while the likes of BYU, Maryland, Cuse, GT and BC are locked out? Not happening.

The ACC has made some mistakes during their part of the realignment sagas, and heaven knows their on-field product has hurt their media appeal, but the only way FSU and Clemson go to the BXII is if the powers that be want to openly confess college football is above and beyond everything else in college athletics. If that's the case their hastening the real demise of college football as an "amateur" sport.

I think FSU and Clemson will eventually bolt to the Big 12 and it's almost to the point of who cares? Sure, some traditional football prestige will be lost but neither have been nationally relevant the last 10 years. If having them in the ACC conference didn't position the commish to push for $25 million per year versus $17 million, losing them and adding Louisville, Cincy, Uconn or Rutgers (or Notre Dame) will probably equate to the same dough. Anyway focus on the core, CBB.

I think parity in CFB is going to be on par with CBB in a few years so conference affiliation isn't going to be that big a deal. Meaning, expanded playoffs to at least 8 or 16 teams.

I don't think people realize how much money schools are pouring into CFB, so the landscape of who contends for the championship will shift somewhat. Sure, you'll have the usually suspects but I think several teams in the ACC (other than FSU and Clemson) and many other places are going to become nationally relevant. It'll be interesting, the SEC set the pace 10 years ago (tons of money), other conferences and teams will be/are catching up, especially those in the south and mid-atlantic region with a lot of home base talent. Hell, maybe Notre Dame will find its way back to the top 10.

[Panteran]

People wanted playoffs and they are on the verge of getting it. At what expense though? People have swept the notion under the rug that in the college game you can only play so many games in a school year. 8 team playoff, 16 team playoff how many games is that? What are the odds even more teams get left out due to the limited of games playable? This is not basketball where you play every other night. Simply too many schools to put on equal ground. The conferences are setting it up, therefore unless you have a say in a football savvy power conference, your chances diminish. Expect more rumors abound is my guess.

[Durhamite]

Originally Posted by Panteran

People wanted playoffs and they are on the verge of getting it. At what expense though? People have swept the notion under the rug that in the college game you can only play so many games in a school year. 8 team playoff, 16 team playoff how many games is that? What are the odds even more teams get left out due to the limited of games playable? This is not basketball where you play every other night. Simply too many schools to put on equal ground. The conferences are setting it up, therefore unless you have a say in a football savvy power conference, your chances diminish. Expect more rumors abound is my guess.

What? The term student-athlete is a farce and please spare me the academic song and dance...this is BIG business. Why is it FCS schools and other divisions manage to do this and expanding the number of teams in 2012 in the playoff?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

This idea of only football "powerhouse" conferences getting into a playoff is absurd. Currently, there is only ONE football conference powerhouse, the SEC. I guess the SEC championship will become the BCS championship or national championship.

As CFB approaches parity like CBB, conference affiliation will become less important. Right now, schools are chasing the money via knee-jerk mode...making some bad decisions in my opinion that some will come to regret. Niot all schools but some. Why is Texas A&M in the SEC? Not because of money, but pure U Tex hate/jealousy. Texas will always be the flagship football program in Texas, get better recuits, have more money....same goes for Alabama/Auburn....Bama is top dog..Ga/Ga Tech, etc.

No way in the hell teams outside of the so-called "power" conferences be excluded from a playoff system....the NCAA or whatever governing body would receive so many lawsuits it would devestate the game. Think NFL minor league, it might be heading that way regardless.

[Panteran]

Originally Posted by Durhamite

This idea of only football "powerhouse" conferences getting into a playoff is absurd. Currently, there is only ONE football conference powerhouse, the SEC. I guess the SEC championship will become the BCS championship or national championship.

As CFB approaches parity like CBB, conference affiliation will become less important. Right now, schools are chasing the money via knee-jerk mode...making some bad decisions in my opinion that some will come to regret. Niot all schools but some. Why is Texas A&M in the SEC? Not because of money, but pure U Tex hate/jealousy. Texas will always be the flagship football program in Texas, get better recuits, have more money....same goes for Alabama/Auburn....Bama is top dog..Ga/Ga Tech, etc.

No way in the hell teams outside of the so-called "power" conferences be excluded from a playoff system....the NCAA or whatever governing body would receive so many lawsuits it would devestate the game. Think NFL minor league, it might be heading that way regardless.

I understand your logic. It's just what I think will become issues when such comes to fruition. Injuries and a toll it takes on a player's body isn't the same in FCS as it is in FBS (NFL lawsuits by former players will have a trickle down effect - yes I know this is a little off topic but down the line it will effect college football). Lawsuits to the NCAA...they lost that governing ability long ago thanks to a ruling by the supreme court so im not sure such lawsuits would even merit. Merely watchdogs (not a very good one at that). College football is run by conferences (who in turn is run by the biggest schools). But we all knew that :P

[GunnerJacket]

Originally Posted by Durhamite

I think FSU and Clemson will eventually bolt to the Big 12 and it's almost to the point of who cares? Sure, some traditional football prestige will be lost but neither have been nationally relevant the last 10 years. If having them in the ACC conference didn't position the commish to push for $25 million per year versus $17 million, losing them and adding Louisville, Cincy, Uconn or Rutgers (or Notre Dame) will probably equate to the same dough. Anyway focus on the core, CBB.

According to 2 different ACC Athletic Directors football accounted for 80% of the recent contract value with ABC/ESPN. In other words, regular season CBB has been greatly reduced as a viable television commodity and the ACC would be foolish to bank on it so exclusively. I know the ACC isn't doing that and I obviously appreciate ACC football far more than the average fan. Give me NCSU vs. MD over anything in the BXII every day of the week and twice on Saturday. Alas, the average cfb fan is almost exclusively concerned with their home team and about 8-12 national brands.

I think parity in CFB is going to be on par with CBB in a few years so conference affiliation isn't going to be that big a deal. Meaning, expanded playoffs to at least 8 or 16 teams.

I think expansion is inevitable, but given the eons it's taken cfb to reach this point I feel an 8 team scenario is still a long, painful era away. Between then and now could be very ugly depending on how the power brokers are allowed to lord over the sport.

The problem is that the disparity in monies involved now not only allows the "haves" to lure away talent and secure the best facilities, but it's also enabling schools to impact media appeal and hype and (in some cases) alter the merits of the school academically. Conversely, those on the outside trying to keep up can lose their shirts.

Originally Posted by Durhamite

What? The term student-athlete is a farce and please spare me the academic song and dance...this is BIG business.

Agreed, sadly. Which is why I'm adamant about wanting to see the ACC survive intact through this. If the collegiate sports world feels this conference isn't worth keeping then I find that a sad indictment of priorities and a sign that world needs an overhaul.

This idea of only football "powerhouse" conferences getting into a playoff is absurd. Currently, there is only ONE football conference powerhouse, the SEC. I guess the SEC championship will become the BCS championship or national championship.

...

No way in the hell teams outside of the so-called "power" conferences be excluded from a playoff system

Maybe, but again consider where we've been and where we are. So long as there is a poll system to influence participation and access, the power conferences will hold greater sway by virtue of popular appeal. Sure, the system might say any conference champion ranked X or higher gets in, but we all know the odds of, say, the MAC or MWC champ making that grade are pretty low. If the ACC were to go substantial periods without notable consideration and access for a 4 team playoff model then how much further behind could they fall in terms of money and popular appeal?

I do agree this is more the alarmist scenario and that anything contrived to be too exclusive will be legally challenged, but given who's involved and the history of college football I'm inclined to not hold my breath on common sense winning the day. After all, if accounts are to be true then a BXII which replaced huge national brands in TAMU and Missouri with tiny private TCU and a WVU from one of the smallest and poorest states in the country... still managed to increase its media contracts to something above the ACC deal!!!! (I don't get it, either)

I know the ACC will survive, I hope and pray GT remains there and would rather it remain intact. But even though it'd be wrong to simply let college football alone drive the future of collegiate sport, that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Oh, and based on the trolls bombarding the ACC messageboards out of spite the last few weeks I wish WVU nothing but abject humiliation in their future home.

[ohpenn]

I agree - a lot of this is coming from WVU fans and it's annoying because message boards and blogs are echo chambers of rumor.

The AJC had something today on FSU and the ACC:


Is the ACC doomed? Hardly, and here are the reasons why

The ACC makes sense with it's body of schools, geography etc and it would suck to see it torn apart. It just so happens that the schools have under performed in football - especially FSU and Miami.

[WeimieLvr]

Originally Posted by ohpenn

I agree - a lot of this is coming from WVU fans and it's annoying because message boards and blogs are echo chambers of rumor.

The AJC had something today on FSU and the ACC:


Is the ACC doomed? Hardly, and here are the reasons why

The ACC makes sense with it's body of schools, geography etc and it would suck to see it torn apart. It just so happens that the schools have under performed in football - especially FSU and Miami.

So many people forget the sparse years in other conferences...the SEC has had a string of years without a national contender, as have all of the conferences that are considered prestigious at the moment. Sports are cyclical...the same schools are not on top throughout eternity. The ACC has a proud football tradition and a proud sports tradition in general (UNC is currently #1 in the Capital One Cup standings http://www.capitalonecup.com/standings.html) and will again be championship relevant in the near future - hell, they were a game here or there from being in the hunt this past year with both Clemson and Va Tech ranked in the top 5 at different times. I would count that as relevant.

[Durhamite]

Originally Posted by GunnerJacket

According to 2 different ACC Athletic Directors football accounted for 80% of the recent contract value with ABC/ESPN. In other words, regular season CBB has been greatly reduced as a viable television commodity and the ACC would be foolish to bank on it so exclusively. I know the ACC isn't doing that and I obviously appreciate ACC football far more than the average fan. Give me NCSU vs. MD over anything in the BXII every day of the week and twice on Saturday. Alas, the average cfb fan is almost exclusively concerned with their home team and about 8-12 ......

I'm speechless! That was a sound overview of where CFB is probably headed. Not a fly on the wall but any number under $25 million/team (w/Pitt and Cuse joining) from the ACC commish's lips during negotiations was low balling. Settle someone between $21 - $22 million/team. I'm sure consultants and other experts provided input or estimates on market value but he shoud've taken a hard stance given the shifting conference landscape....either I get that number or the conference has potential to implode...see Big East.

I primarily watch ACC football. That aside, I don't think many people realize how close the current ACC is from being a very strong football conference. It's impossible to keep producing that amount of pro talent (2nd to SEC the last 5+ years, unbelievable considering Duke is in the conference) without eventually have a few rise to the top; the geographical recruiting footprint is almost unmatched in additon to being in high growth states.

I recall when Mack Brown left UNC for Texas - he was very interested in staying and was turning UNC into a football powerhouse (of sorts...some very strong teams) but happened during the period Dean Smith was retiring. He got dissed one too many times during the glorified Dean tributes and bolted. UNC didn't see it coming (total focus on CFB) else they'd offered Mack Brown a head-scratching amount of money to stay; still Texas was a better job with a rabid fan base and large recruiting pool....though, I think if UNC pays him comparable cash he stays.

Oh well, lot of things changing, maybe the ACC stays in tact.

[GunnerJacket]

The ACC did accept a low offer, but in exchange they got the best exposure possible. Every game picked up by ABC/ESPN will be nationally accessible, and whatever ESPN turns down the schools then get to cede out for themselves. The PAC and BXII deals rely on a ton of regional broadcasts by FOX, and because of that the ACC had better average ratings than the BXII last year. This impacts recruiting and is part of the conference's acknowledged strategy to grow the brand.

Mack was a great coach for UNC and it would've been nice to see him stay, but even as an avowed anti-Texan I don't begrudge him taking the UT job. That's one of a handful of positions considered the pinnacle of collegiate coaching and clearly the move has worked out for him and the school.

I'm convinced the ACC will be fine and haven't realy panicked throughout any of this, save for being surprised at how quickly some FSU fans jumped on the bandwagon driven by WVU faithful. Verily, the internet has done a great job in using this hysteria to drive web hits and whip up fan emotion! All because of the idea that BXII membership is so magically amazing, as if your team will host both UT and OU every year!

[ardamir]

Originally Posted by GunnerJacket

Mack was a great coach for UNC and it would've been nice to see him stay, but even as an avowed anti-Texan I don't begrudge him taking the UT job. That's one of a handful of positions considered the pinnacle of collegiate coaching and clearly the move has worked out for him and the school.

I'm convinced the ACC will be fine and haven't realy panicked throughout any of this, save for being surprised at how quickly some FSU fans jumped on the bandwagon driven by WVU faithful. Verily, the internet has done a great job in using this hysteria to drive web hits and whip up fan emotion! All because of the idea that BXII membership is so magically amazing, as if your team will host both UT and OU every year!

Thems is fighting words. I would like to add that last year the talk about Texas A&M and Missouri leaving for the SEC was "all message board chatter."
There is definitely interest from Florida State (and Clemson), especially when a trustee chairman says that they are open to the possibility.

It does seems rather shitty that UT would complain about losing a long time rival to another conference due to the influence of money, then a few months later support an initiative to separate Miami and Florida State.

[WeimieLvr]

Originally Posted by ardamir

Thems is fighting words. I would like to add that last year the talk about Texas A&M and Missouri leaving for the SEC was "all message board chatter."
There is definitely interest from Florida State (and Clemson), especially when a trustee chairman says that they are open to the possibility.

It does seems rather shitty that UT would complain about losing a long time rival to another conference due to the influence of money, then a few months later support an initiative to separate Miami and Florida State.

I'm not sure that the trustee chairman has much to do with a university's conference alignment...so far the only "interest" has been in the blog world, not the real one. The chairman's response was to the rumors, not to actual real-world discussion.

[GunnerJacket]

Originally Posted by ardamir

Thems is fighting words.

Saying "I'm this" can't be fightin' words. Now, me saying "Texas if full of no-good, huge ego-havin', redneck hilljacks!" ... Them's fightin' words!!

I would like to add that last year the talk about Texas A&M and Missouri leaving for the SEC was "all message board chatter."

There's a huge difference in that prior to last year's hysteria there was the whole Pac 16 scenario that played out, at which time reps from TAMU and the SEC actually did meet to discuss potential admission. Meanwhile Missouri sent out soft feelers to the Big Ten under the suspiscion they'd need a home. So not only had the parties officially expressed interest in moving but TAMU and Mizzou had publicly announced their discontent with elements within their home conference.

There is definitely interest from Florida State (and Clemson), especially when a trustee chairman says that they are open to the possibility.

Interest in going to the BXII versus open to options that prove more beneficial than the existing affiliation are two seperate things. Apart from the emotional issues @ FSU and CU (Swofford, Tobacco Road, etc) the extent of discontent shown is a reactionary response to seeing two figures in the press: $20M and $17M. Now that the higher ups have been given time to learn the details and air concerns the hysteria has died down.

Basically the BXII has pulled itself off the canvas, realized it's still in the ring and is now swinging at anything and everything to prove it's a contender. They don't NEED to add anyone but if they do then they're all the stronger for it, in the short term anyway. Thus I don't blame them for trying to right the ship any way possible after the soap opera they've all been through. If anything the ACC is at fault for giving any of its members reason to be so sensitive to the message board hype.

But make no mistake that this is a large part of what's going on: The fanboys of the BXII are aiming for the fences and if they get the desired results who cares if their facts are wrong or if their approach is unbecoming. The power of modern media is much like a mob, and if you scream "$10M more per year!" then soon enough that will be all people hear.

[bysavas]

nice

[Durhamite]

[QUOTE=GunnerJacket;91869505]Saying "I'm this" can't be fightin' words. Now, me saying "Texas if full of no-good, huge ego-havin', redneck hilljacks!" ... Them's fightin' words!!

There's a huge....QUOTE]

In my opinion, WVU still wants to be part of the ACC, it's a geographical fit with natural rivalries at Va Tech, Pitt, MD, etc. Geography doesn't play as an important role with the shifting conference landscape, but if the ACC came calling, you better believe WVU is listening.

The ACC is a bit of an academic snob and if not for two factors, small TV market and overall academic ranking, WVU is an ideal ACC school. I'm sure many boosters, fans, etc. feel slighted by the ACC and will take delight in creating rumor, etc. in hopes of its demise.

[GunnerJacket]

Originally Posted by Durhamite

In my opinion, WVU still wants to be part of the ACC, it's a geographical fit with natural rivalries at Va Tech, Pitt, MD, etc. Geography doesn't play as an important role with the shifting conference landscape, but if the ACC came calling, you better believe WVU is listening.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ACC has burned some of those bridges, now. Depending on the 'eer fan you speak with they're all the more pleased to be in a football-first conference and would take that over affiliation with some of the ACC schools, close proximity be darned.

Many of us agree WVU would've been a better fit at #12, and under those terms I've no doubt they'd have proven fiercely loyal. Many of their fans are also reeling, I'm sure, from the loss of rivalry games with VT, UMd and now Pitt. Would they listen? Who knows, but it seems a moot debate now. And adding WVU as #12 doesn't change the ACC's plights today.

The ACC is a bit of an academic snob and if not for two factors, small TV market and overall academic ranking...

True enough. The ACC has the smallest avg undergrad size of any of the big conferences, and each has the luxury to be selective (most are VERY selective) in their admission. WVU, like many SEC and BXII schools, is a general admin school and in a small state, so they can't match the ACC norm even if they wanted too due to their obligations to the State.

What should've turned the discussion, though, was the notion of shared vested interest in Appalachia. Both culturally and economically. Many universisites are learning the value in rural economic development, and there are plenty of areas within NC and VA that mirror the poor parts of WVa. The area shares environmental resources, tourism and developmental interests. If anything the ACC could've seen it as a worthy mission to say "Their goals are our goals, so let's work together." Alas, the allure of research and business partnerships within the northeast was too strong.

Would've been similarly stated had Texas and co. joined the PAC. No matter how noble and compatible ISU and KSU may seem to Texas and Oklahoma, it's easy to see why other schools in other states are bigger brands and more attractive partners.

[Durhamite]

In an honor of the late great Andy Griffith...1953 short film that got em started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FibbKyBTJX4

[Durhamite]

This ACC agrees to 12-year deal with orange bowl.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...er-orange-bowl

This is good deal for the ACC but who do they play? I think the highest ranked independent or team from any other conference (Notre Dame, Big East, etc.). Otherwise, they'll have to align with 2nd/3rd ranked team from Big Ten or SEC.

I'm not sure but I think the handwriting is on the wall for Notre Dame...it's just a matter of time before they join the ACC, football et. al.

As bad as the ACC's BCS record has been, I don't think you can hold some of the teams down much longer. Just too much talent in the league, sports is cyclical and sooner or later the league will have a break out year. For one, some of the teams finally decided to pony-up the dollars for better coaches...somewhat coerced due to CFB becoming the primary revenue generating source. The league will never have the rabid fan base like the Big Ten or SEC, but have the potential to compete with any other league given it's geographical recruiting footprint and TV market.

[WeimieLvr]

Originally Posted by Durhamite

This ACC agrees to 12-year deal with orange bowl.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...er-orange-bowl

This is good deal for the ACC but who do they play? I think the highest ranked independent or team from any other conference (Notre Dame, Big East, etc.). Otherwise, they'll have to align with 2nd/3rd ranked team from Big Ten or SEC.

I'm not sure but I think the handwriting is on the wall for Notre Dame...it's just a matter of time before they join the ACC, football et. al.

As bad as the ACC's BCS record has been, I don't think you can hold some of the teams down much longer. Just too much talent in the league, sports is cyclical and sooner or later the league will have a break out year. For one, some of the teams finally decided to pony-up the dollars for better coaches...somewhat coerced due to CFB becoming the primary revenue generating source. The league will never have the rabid fan base like the Big Ten or SEC, but have the potential to compete with any other league given it's geographical recruiting footprint and TV market.

Some people just don't understand that every year is a new year in college sports, and past records in bowl games really don't affect future years. I totally agree that one of the ACC teams will break through soon, if not this year then next or the year after.