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Old December 24th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #61
dwdwone
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According to metrotram.it, there will be an underground station at the Mestre railway station in addition to the speculative airport plans.

http://www.metrotram.it/index.php?vm...=eng&vmsys=tgo
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Old December 25th, 2010, 01:14 AM   #62
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What's a translohr? Is it a trademarked name or does it mean something in Italian? Anyways, nice system. I like the vehicle the best
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Old December 25th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #63
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It's a trademark name for a proprietary guided bus system. People think it's a rubber-tyred tram, but it is really a guided bus system that happens to use pans for the power collection.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #64
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It is most problematic transport very stpid and will never compete with normal modern trams.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #65
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I agree 100%. Guided Buses are no substitute for tram lines. There are instances where trams may not be feasible, but you can just use buses.

I remember one major problem with guided buses, is the running way surface deteriorated quickly after only a year, leading to a very bumpy ride. Looking at the pictures, I see asphalt is used.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
It's a trademark name for a proprietary guided bus system. People think it's a rubber-tyred tram, but it is really a guided bus system that happens to use pans for the power collection.
Sort of like a trolleybus, am I right?
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Old December 27th, 2010, 12:39 AM   #67
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translohr
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Old December 27th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #68
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Siemens has announced that the next generation of VAL trains will use the Translohr system for guidance:

=========================================================
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...ro-line-b.html



Siemens selected for Rennes metro Line B
16 November 2010

FRANCE: Mayor of Rennes Daniel Delaveau announced on November 16 that Siemens has been selected as preferred bidder by transport authority Rennes Métropole to build the city’s second driverless metro line. The €200m contract will be submitted to the city council for ratification on November 18.

Siemens Mobility France will be responsible for initial studies, systems engineering, project management, commissioning and maintenance for the turnkey project. The company will supply 19 Cityval two-car trainsets, Trainguard MT CBTC signalling, platform screen doors, telecommunications equipment and an operational control centre and depot.

The rubber-tyred Cityval is based on the Neoval concept developed by Siemens in conjunction with Lohr Industries. It uses the Translohr guidance system comprising two V-shaped rollers tilted at 45° which run along a central rail. The trains will be manufactured by Lohr in Alsace. The air-conditioned vehicles will have through gangways, large windows, real-time passenger information and CCTV video surveillance. Maximum operating speed is 80 km/h.

Line B will be 12·6 km long, running from Mermoz in the southwest to Champs Blancs in the northeast with 15 stations. The central section between Cleunay and Le Gast will pass under the city centre in a bored tunnel while the Cleunay-Mermoz and Le Gast-Chateaubriand sections will be cut-and-cover. The final 3·3 km from Chateaubriand to Champs Blancs will be elevated. Interchange to Line A will be provided at Sainte-Anne and Gares. Revenue service is envisaged in 2018.

Siemens previously supplied Rennes with automation technology and 16 rubber-tyred driverless VAL 208 cars for the 8·5 km Line A which opened in March 2002.

=========================================================
More on the next generation of VAL trains can be found at the following link:

http://www.euromedtransport.org/file...y2_siemens.pdf
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Old December 27th, 2010, 03:17 PM   #69
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For more information, visit the Translohr website < http://www.lohr.fr/transport-public_gb.htm >. The following are some images describing the capabilities of the system.



The modularity of the Translohr components enables to produce a range of equipments, of 18, 25, 32, 39 or 46m according to the number of passenger modules .


The Translohr presents a very short rail turning circle (10.5m whatever the vehicle model), this feature enables a particularly easy urban insertion in the narrow streets that impose tight angles.


Equipped with a driving cab at both ends, Translohr vehicles are bidirectional. This feature enables to operate the vehicles without a reversal ring at the end of the line and without requiring the use of dead-end track depots.


Crossing capacity: Thanks to its motorisation and its tyre adherence, the Translohr can run on slopes of 13%.


The Translohr guiding is made possible by 2 V-shaped « rollers » tilted at a 45° angle, pinching a central rail.


The Translohr low flat floor enables a same-level access at a minimum height (pavement platform at a height of 23 cm).


There is also a brochure describing the system and the various lines that are being installed:

http://www.lohr.fr/download/Translohr_GB.pdf
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Old December 27th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balkanada View Post
Sort of like a trolleybus, am I right?
It's a more like tram with rubber-tyres. Modern trolleybuses are more flexible, and can go off wire using a separate power source if necessary. The Translohr system cannot go of the track.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #71
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I know what it is and no normal city will ever choose this shit for their street with so many problems.

You think it's quieter then trams?? hahaha not at all and is much more expensive and much more expensive to keep it normally.

The road destruction, the track cleaning (which tram doesn't need).

carries low number of passangers then the tram that size.


Bombardier Flexity Outlook for Augsburg can go up to 11% hills so the Translohrs 13% is absolutely stupid.

turning radius 10,5 is also stupid.
why?

cause Bombardier already makes Flexity OPutlook for Toronto which is capable of turning the same 10,5 and is 100% low floor.

As of speed and COMFORT WHILE RIDING Translor will never compete with steel wheel trams cause rubber tired transport and it's surface will never be that smooth as rail.

IT HAS VERY BUMPY RIDE.
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Old December 28th, 2010, 10:30 AM   #72
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The Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority published a report titled “Northeast Sector Rapid Transit Alternatives Project, Phase 2 - Evaluation of Rapid Transit Alternatives, Final Technical Report” that compared several alternatives for for the Coquitlam (A.K.A. Evergreen) Line. The report compared SkyTrain (automated trains operating on an elevated viaduct), light rail, and Guided Light Transit (Bombardier’s GLT system and Translohr) for the preferred northwest corridor route (Northwest via Barnet). According to the report, GLT would be cheaper to operate than LRT and less then half the cost to build. A major cost difference between the systems is that, “SkyTrain and LRT require a 2 km tunnel to bypass the 12% grade on Clarke Road Hill, while the rubber-tired GLT, although slower, is able to negotiate this grade”.

The following are few of the numbers from the report:

Operating Cost per Vehicle-Hour - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $150 - $170
LRT: $150 - $200
GLT: $110 - $140

Operating Cost per Passenger Capacity - KM - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $0.025 - $0.035
LRT: $0.03 - $0.04
GLT: $0.04 - $0.05

Maximum Acheivable Speed - Table 5.1
SkyTrain: 80 km/h
LRT: 90 km/h
GLT: 70 km/h

Travel Time from Lougheed Station to Coquitlam City Hall - Table 5.2
SkyTrain: 13 min.
LRT: 21 min.
GLT: 23 min.

Peak Directional Passenger Demand for 2021 - Table 7.1.1
SkyTrain: 5900
LRT: 2600
GLT: 2200

Capital Costs - Demand Based Vehicles - Table 7.2.1
SkyTrain: $834.0 M
LRT: $660.4 M
GLT: $277.6 M

Annual Operating Costs - Table 7.3.3
SkyTrain: $13.8 M
LRT: $10.6 M
GLT: $9.4 M

Regarding the capital cost difference, a bit over $80 M is attributable to the tunnel required for SkyTrain and LRT. The ability to mount grades of up to 13% is one of the primary selling points of the Translohr system. The usual design limit for new LRT systems is around 6% though there are existing lines that are steeper:.

Regarding the Coquitlam (Evergreen) Line, the initial recommendation was to build LRT. The SkyTrain option is dismissed due to exceeding a cap on initial capital cost. The GLT option is dismissed due to the technology being considered too new and unproven. The issue was subsequently revisited and a decision was made to build Skytrain.
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Old December 28th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #73
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Translohr vehicles are much more expensive

6 part bidirectional Translohr costs 5 000 000 euros and is 46 meters long.

while Alstom Citadis trams 43 meters 7 sections cost 2 500 000 euros./
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Old December 28th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority published a report titled “Northeast Sector Rapid Transit Alternatives Project, Phase 2 - Evaluation of Rapid Transit Alternatives, Final Technical Report” that compared several alternatives for for the Coquitlam (A.K.A. Evergreen) Line. The report compared SkyTrain (automated trains operating on an elevated viaduct), light rail, and Guided Light Transit (Bombardier’s GLT system and Translohr) for the preferred northwest corridor route (Northwest via Barnet). According to the report, GLT would be cheaper to operate than LRT and less then half the cost to build. A major cost difference between the systems is that, “SkyTrain and LRT require a 2 km tunnel to bypass the 12% grade on Clarke Road Hill, while the rubber-tired GLT, although slower, is able to negotiate this grade”.

The following are few of the numbers from the report:

Operating Cost per Vehicle-Hour - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $150 - $170
LRT: $150 - $200
GLT: $110 - $140

Operating Cost per Passenger Capacity - KM - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $0.025 - $0.035
LRT: $0.03 - $0.04
GLT: $0.04 - $0.05

Maximum Acheivable Speed - Table 5.1
SkyTrain: 80 km/h
LRT: 90 km/h
GLT: 70 km/h

Travel Time from Lougheed Station to Coquitlam City Hall - Table 5.2
SkyTrain: 13 min.
LRT: 21 min.
GLT: 23 min.

Peak Directional Passenger Demand for 2021 - Table 7.1.1
SkyTrain: 5900
LRT: 2600
GLT: 2200

Capital Costs - Demand Based Vehicles - Table 7.2.1
SkyTrain: $834.0 M
LRT: $660.4 M
GLT: $277.6 M

Annual Operating Costs - Table 7.3.3
SkyTrain: $13.8 M
LRT: $10.6 M
GLT: $9.4 M

Regarding the capital cost difference, a bit over $80 M is attributable to the tunnel required for SkyTrain and LRT. The ability to mount grades of up to 13% is one of the primary selling points of the Translohr system. The usual design limit for new LRT systems is around 6% though there are existing lines that are steeper:.

Regarding the Coquitlam (Evergreen) Line, the initial recommendation was to build LRT. The SkyTrain option is dismissed due to exceeding a cap on initial capital cost. The GLT option is dismissed due to the technology being considered too new and unproven. The issue was subsequently revisited and a decision was made to build Skytrain.
You always post this report, and it is over 6 years old. The first Translohr installation was 2006, wasn't it? The Translohr technology is different from the Bombardier technology, too.

Being able to achieve a 13% gradient is not really good selling point, considering most transit lines will never go above 5-6% for passenger comfort.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 05:28 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
You always post this report, and it is over 6 years old. The first Translohr installation was 2006, wasn't it? The Translohr technology is different from the Bombardier technology, too.

Being able to achieve a 13% gradient is not really good selling point, considering most transit lines will never go above 5-6% for passenger comfort.
Yes, the Vancouver Coquitlam/Evergreen Line report dates from about six years ago. The report used the term “GLT” generically to refer to both Bombardier’s GLT system and the Translohr system. At the time the report was developed, the Nancy and Caen Bombardier GLT lines were already in operation and the Clermont-Ferrand Translohr line was under construction, so there was some decent cost data available for these systems. I don’t imagine that the relative cost differences between Skytrain, LRT, and Translohr have changed all that much.

At the time the Coquitlam/Evergreen Line report was developed, teething problems were being reported for the Bombardier GLT system. This is probably the reason that the report dismissed GLT as developmental. The teething problems appear to have been largely corrected. I have seen several recent YouTube videos showing the Bombardier GLT lines in Nancy and Caen continuing to operate; however, Bombardier is no longer marketing the system. Translohr seems to have won in the market place.

At the time that the Clermont-Ferrand Translohr line was being built, I remember seeing predictions of looming disaster. It was supposed that 1) the vehicles wouldn’t stay on the guidance rail due to the lack of weight on the guidance wheels, 2) the tires always following the same path would wear ruts in the road, and 3) the system simply wouldn’t be able to operate in snow. Several Translohr systems are now in operation and none seem to be hobbled by such problems.

The Translohr system does have the very real problem that it is a proprietary technology. Despite this, new Translohr lines continue to be built and the system has been adopted for the next generation of the Siemens VAL automated metro/peoplemover system. This simply wouldn’t be the case if Translohr did not offer a significant cost advantage over traditional rail systems.

Regarding the maximum grade, it would be nice if every system could be limited to 6% for passenger comfort, but building tunnels every place that the grade exceeds 6% just isn't practical. Translohr's capability to mount a grade of 13% is a significant advantage.

As an illustration of the adhesion advantage of rubber tires, I'll offer the following list of the steepest grades on transit routes in San Francisco:

- Bus: 23.1% for 67-Bernal Heights on Alabama between Ripley and Esmeralda.
- Trolley Bus: 22.8% for 24-Divisadero on Noe between 26th and Cesar Chavez
- Cable Car: 21% for Powell-Hyde line on Hyde between Bay and Francisco.
- Streetcar: 9% for J-Church on private right-of-way in Dolores Park.

The rubber-tired buses climb grades that are steeper than even the cable cars. The streetcars do climb grades steeper than 6%, but this requires the use of sand in inclement weather, which brings added maintenance and cleanup costs.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #76
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The following is a video of the Translohr line in Clermont-Ferrand.



In the interest of equal time, the following is a video of the Bombardier GLT system in Caen.

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Old December 29th, 2010, 03:31 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post

At the time that the Clermont-Ferrand Translohr line was being built, I remember seeing predictions of looming disaster. It was supposed that 1) the vehicles wouldn’t stay on the guidance rail due to the lack of weight on the guidance wheels, 2) the tires always following the same path would wear ruts in the road, and 3) the system simply wouldn’t be able to operate in snow. Several Translohr systems are now in operation and none seem to be hobbled by such problems.

The Translohr system does have the very real problem that it is a proprietary technology. Despite this, new Translohr lines continue to be built and the system has been adopted for the next generation of the Siemens VAL automated metro/peoplemover system. This simply wouldn’t be the case if Translohr did not offer a significant cost advantage over traditional rail systems.

Regarding the maximum grade, it would be nice if every system could be limited to 6% for passenger comfort, but building tunnels every place that the grade exceeds 6% just isn't practical. Translohr's capability to mount a grade of 13% is a significant advantage.

As an illustration of the adhesion advantage of rubber tires, I'll offer the following list of the steepest grades on transit routes in San Francisco:

- Bus: 23.1% for 67-Bernal Heights on Alabama between Ripley and Esmeralda.
- Trolley Bus: 22.8% for 24-Divisadero on Noe between 26th and Cesar Chavez
- Cable Car: 21% for Powell-Hyde line on Hyde between Bay and Francisco.
- Streetcar: 9% for J-Church on private right-of-way in Dolores Park.

The rubber-tired buses climb grades that are steeper than even the cable cars. The streetcars do climb grades steeper than 6%, but this requires the use of sand in inclement weather, which brings added maintenance and cleanup costs.
The costs for maintaining translohr is really much more then trams, because the track cleaning is needed every day,even a single little peace of something can cause a destruction of guidance rollers.

Translohr and GLT can't run on significant snnow and GLT some days ago in Nancy was stopped do to 20 cm of snow while trams run very well.

GLT and translohr ways need to be cleaned very carefully to the ground becauselorh can't be too much high from road surface the rollers will stuck.

Road is really destructing where the wheel run on same place haven't you even seen photos? they're all over the internet, the road surface change needs more costs.

The ride comfort of translohr is lower then steel wheel trams. THIS IS SIGNIFICANT FLAW of translohr.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 01:15 PM   #78
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The term for this is FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). It works a lot better when a project is at the concept stage before it becomes a real world reality. Once it is a real world reality, people can see for themselves how well the system operates.

Several Translohr systems are now operational. Derailments are not such a problem that reliability is an issue. It is not shutdown by every snowstorm. Passengers are not deterred by the ride quality. The construction and operating costs are known and are sufficiently attractive that Translohr continues to be chosen for new transit lines.

On the subject of ride quality, it has been my experience that the ride quality of light rail is good when a line is new, but can seriously degrade over time. When visiting Baltimore, I rode on a light rail train that had flat spots on the wheels. "Clunk-clunk-clunk!' The driver demonstrated how the flat spots got there when he skidded to an emergency stop when a car poked its nose in way of the train at a downtown intersection. I had several memorable rides on light rail trains in Boston where the trains did the Watusi whenever they got above a certain speed as a consequence of unevenness of the rails. Standing riders had to hold on to the grab rails with both hands. It was amazing that the trains were able to stay on the tracks. Actually, Boston has a new class of light rail vehicles from Breda that have had trouble staying on the tracks.

On the subject of snow, every rail system in the northeast United States was shutdown by a snowstorm a few days ago, including subways, light rail, and intercity passenger trains. A subway train in New York City was caught on an elevated viaduct for seven hours before it could be rescued. I personally have been on an Amtrak train that was delayed for two hours at Boston's South Station due to a frozen switch following a minor snowfall.

Last edited by greg_christine; December 30th, 2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #79
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Padua







fonte: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1#post48768611

video: http://www.youreporter.it/video_Tram...o_sulla_neve_1
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Old January 16th, 2011, 02:29 PM   #80
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CLERMONT FERRAND
STUPID TRANSLOHR DERAILED ONE MORE TIME THIS DAYS AND SLAMEED ON WALL.
BECAUSE OF THAT ON BRIDGE TRAM SPEED IS REDUCED TO 10 KM/H

AJAJAJA I SAID THIS IS THE MOST STUPID MEAN OF TRANSPORT IT'S SHIT POOR CITIES THAT ASCUIRED IT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mhAaCAFK3U
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