The Taiwan Issue 台湾问题

[Haoting]

Originally Posted by Severiano

Beijing and Taipei's subway's are equal if you are Hellen Keller and have no sense of time.

At least Hellen Keller or anyone else can take the train from Beijing's international airport to downtown Beijing. Taipei won't have an airport-downtown train link for several years. Also, did you say Taipei has a better subway system than Hong Kong? You gotta be kidding me! Haven't you heard about Taipei's new Neihu line that has broken down seven times in the first month of operation?

Beijing's new subway line 4 (opening later this month) will probably be the most advanced in Asia with stations equipped with 103" plasma screens, the ability to forecast the arrival time of the next train, and monitors in the subway cars that can receive live tv broadcasts.

[BarbaricManchurian]

Beijing's subway is mostly old, crowded, and somewhat dirty, but is always reliable, and gets you to most important places; it's not very big yet but to say it's not great is just foolish. Just look at North American and most European subway systems, even the worst Asian subway system seems amazing compared to those.

[BarbaricManchurian]

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Yes! But chinese people dont see/believe this or they dont want to realize this.

I can make really stupid and serious jokes about J.F.Kenedy, Clinton, Bush or Obama, or Angela Merkel and other german politicans. But lets make fun about Hu Jintao or the CCP in gerneral.... this can bring you in really serious problems in China. I am in China now and the censorship is high and nobody wants to speak with me or my chinese friends (who lived in Germany for a while) about politics.

Why are you, as a Western outsider seeking to talk to Chinese about their internal politics? You probably just want to project your thought that everything is censored when your "friends" understandably look at you weird when you ask these odd questions that mostly aren't relevant to day-to-day life.

Originally Posted by simon87

to be honest, pls dont bombard me..if japanese, taiwanese, south koreans and singaporeans insist on and praise the democratic system but despise communism does it subject them to abuse for worshiping the west?

ppl from democratic countries are not worshiping it, only that we are happy with our democratic system and would like to share it with the others.

if you're going to another country's forum and saying bad things about its form of government, or pretty much anything, if course there will be a pushback. It's the same with every country's forum, it's nothing unusual.

[YelloPerilo]

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

After the WWII the colonialism stopped anyway. Invadded by the USA were Germany and Japan, not China. Germany had to give back its conquered parts of poland, france etc, Japan its parts of Korea, China etc.

Colonialism didn't stop until Mao came to the world stage. The Vietnam War as well as the Algerian War were attempts to prolong colonialism. The same in many African colonies with the British. The US saw itself as the new colonial power after the Europeans mangled each other to death.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

So in my opionion there was no need for Mao Zedong, who brang 40 years stillstand to China. For me Mao Zedong was the biggest destroyer of Mainland China. While Japan became a superpower of economic and technology, Taiwan and Hongkong developed fine, Mainland China had no success in anything but beeing damaged by the politics of Mao Zedong.

During Mao's time, China did have a relatively high growth (around 7%) despite embargo, boycott and inner conflicts building the basis for Deng's industrialisation. Of course for you who grew up with your own propaganda he is a villain, because he started a revolution against European barbarity. The whole European and USofAmerican world outlook was shattered. Japan was already a well developed country before WW2. Hongkong grew rich because all external trades from China went through Hongkong. Why haven't you asked yourself why all other British and French colonies never achieved what Hongkong achieved under colonial rule? Why was Hongkong such an exception? Think about it!

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

OH YES, it WAs China`s choice to close its own borders (and the reason was clear, you said China was sick of foreigner´s influence). Like it was its own choice to open the country.
There were embargos, but not over all the 40 years China was more or less closed to the world and its progess/improvement and there were alternatives.

Yes, China was sick to be treated like subhumans on their territories, China was sick to be told what they have to do in their home, China was sick of people like you! But China never wanted to stop trading with other nations on equal terms. It was the USofA and its vassals who wanted to treat China as equal partner.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

But its typical Chinese.... "the others are blamed if China did not improve"

Sorry, blame culture is Christian. Chinese philosophy is based on human needs. Christian can always project whatever happens to their god or another person.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Because the CCP recognized that its important to open the country, to exhibit and mess with the world, to invide foreign engineers and to send own students and engineers abroad, to invest in other countries and to let other countries invest in China.

No, it's because the USofA needed China to outbalance the former USSR that's why the US lifted the embargo. China used that opportunity to modernise.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

A lot other developing countries are closed by their government, like China was and North Korea still is.

A lot of deveoping countries opened their doors and got crushed like little insects and their wealth sqeezed like a lemon through unfair trade practices dictated by the USofA and its vassals.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Furthermore China as very good resources (other smaller countries have only deserts for example).

China has 20% of the world population and only 7% of arable land.

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Yes, correct. And than is growth very easy for a developing country, because the country has a lot to do ;-)

Are you saying that China is doing well despite the lack of your so called demobcazy?

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Because I guess, the democratic systems of the western countries is the best of the world, not perfect, but the best.
As I said before, I dont believe that there can exist any perfect system. A system is never perfect, will be never perfect.

Good for you if you think the "western" demobcrazy is the best. Good if you believe pluralism is great. Then respect other forms of society. That is true pluralism, that is democracy on a global scale. Be consequent!

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

But I have to add, that while China is a developing country, the current political system is not bad (better the the indian system!), but when China is developed (like the USA, more or less), it should turn into a democratic system with less censorship and more free speech.

Who are you to say what China and Chinese should then and when? Typical "western" arrogance, ey!

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

And now I dont want to see the taiwanese system (democratic, with free speech) standing under the CCP.

Who are you to want anything on Chinese territory? Want to hang a sign in front of a public park in China saying that Chinese and dogs are not allowed to enter because they don't adopt our values?

[YelloPerilo]

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Yes! But chinese people dont see/believe this or they dont want to realize this.

I can make really stupid and serious jokes about J.F.Kenedy, Clinton, Bush or Obama, or Angela Merkel and other german politicans. But lets make fun about Hu Jintao or the CCP in gerneral.... this can bring you in really serious problems in China. I am in China now and the censorship is high and nobody wants to speak with me or my chinese friends (who lived in Germany for a while) about politics.

During the colonial time, there were christian missionaries, now we have demobcrazy missionaries. The occidental culture is truly intolerant to the core always telling other people how they should live their life. By force if necessary.

There is this one African saying:

When the white men came, we had the land, they had the bible.
The white men said, lets close our eyes and pray.
So we closed our eyes and prayed.
When we opened our eyes, they have our land and we have the bible.

The same could be applied for any ideology! It's good to know that most people in Mainland China don't listen to their poisonous ideas.

[mckendy]

i am agree with you to be clear I am not Chinese I am from Canada after visiting china 3 times I find it very ridiculous criticism of the people towards China on democracy especially when it comes from Taiwan people because in Canada and even in USA the tawanaise does not criticize the American system or even protest while the U.S. gives less importance to them then the mainland our job is to encourage the Chinese to develop a system better than what we know today and help them achieve unity and harmony that they looking for especially when the biggest problem these days do not come form china but from from the west a chinese succes is the world succes and in some aspect i prefer the chinese culture then the western one

but for now i think we better focus on what is good like the taiwan issue then bashing each other

[mckendy]

Originally Posted by YelloPerilo

During the colonial time, there were christian missionaries, now we have demobcrazy missionaries. The occidental culture is truly intolerant to the core always telling other people how they should live their life. By force if necessary.

There is this one African saying:

When the white men came, we had the land, they had the bible.
The white men said, lets close our eyes and pray.
So we closed our eyes and prayed.
When we opened our eyes, they have our land and we have the bible.

The same could be applied for any ideology! It's good to know that most people in Mainland China don't listen to their poisonous ideas.

i am agree with you to be clear I am not Chinese I am from Canada after visiting china 3 times I find it very ridiculous criticism of the people towards China on democracy especially when it comes from Taiwan people because in Canada and even in USA the tawanaise does not criticize the American system or even protest while the U.S. gives less importance to them then the mainland our job is to encourage the Chinese to develop a system better than what we know today and help them achieve unity and harmony that they looking for especially when the biggest problem these days do not come form china but from from the west a chinese succes is the world succes and in some aspect i prefer the chinese culture then the western one

but for now i think we better focus on what is good like the taiwan issue then bashing each other

[z0rg]

YelloPerilo is my personal hero

[dodge321]

Originally Posted by YelloPerilo

During the colonial time, there were christian missionaries, now we have demobcrazy missionaries. The occidental culture is truly intolerant to the core always telling other people how they should live their life. By force if necessary.

There is this one African saying:

When the white men came, we had the land, they had the bible.
The white men said, lets close our eyes and pray.
So we closed our eyes and prayed.
When we opened our eyes, they have our land and we have the bible.

The same could be applied for any ideology! It's good to know that most people in Mainland China don't listen to their poisonous ideas.

that cracked me up, so true though.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian

Beijing's subway is mostly old, crowded, and somewhat dirty ...

From my first trip to Beijing in 2006 I would agree with that description, but I went back in March this year and I have to say that the subway has changed almost beyond recognition in those three years.

[Ohno]

It seems funny as if subway becomes a hot part to judge if Beijing is international compared with Taipei. Beijing's subway has been built since 1965 while I bet Taipei's subway at least was built in 1985 or later. Image how modern Beijing's subway will be if it is built 20 years later. In some big international cities I've been to, I saw crappy subways such as Toronto's, and in the fourth biggest American city, Houston, there is no subway even.

[alec74]

Originally Posted by YelloPerilo

Colonialism didn't stop until Mao came to the world stage. The Vietnam War as well as the Algerian War were attempts to prolong colonialism. The same in many African colonies with the British. The US saw itself as the new colonial power after the Europeans mangled each other to death.



During Mao's time, China did have a relatively high growth (around 7%) despite embargo, boycott and inner conflicts building the basis for Deng's industrialisation. Of course for you who grew up with your own propaganda he is a villain, because he started a revolution against European barbarity. The whole European and USofAmerican world outlook was shattered. Japan was already a well developed country before WW2. Hongkong grew rich because all external trades from China went through Hongkong. Why haven't you asked yourself why all other British and French colonies never achieved what Hongkong achieved under colonial rule? Why was Hongkong such an exception? Think about it!



Yes, China was sick to be treated like subhumans on their territories, China was sick to be told what they have to do in their home, China was sick of people like you! But China never wanted to stop trading with other nations on equal terms. It was the USofA and its vassals who wanted to treat China as equal partner.



Sorry, blame culture is Christian. Chinese philosophy is based on human needs. Christian can always project whatever happens to their god or another person.



No, it's because the USofA needed China to outbalance the former USSR that's why the US lifted the embargo. China used that opportunity to modernise.



A lot of deveoping countries opened their doors and got crushed like little insects and their wealth sqeezed like a lemon through unfair trade practices dictated by the USofA and its vassals.



China has 20% of the world population and only 7% of arable land.




Are you saying that China is doing well despite the lack of your so called demobcazy?



Good for you if you think the "western" demobcrazy is the best. Good if you believe pluralism is great. Then respect other forms of society. That is true pluralism, that is democracy on a global scale. Be consequent!



Who are you to say what China and Chinese should then and when? Typical "western" arrogance, ey!



Who are you to want anything on Chinese territory? Want to hang a sign in front of a public park in China saying that Chinese and dogs are not allowed to enter because they don't adopt our values?

I agree on the WHOLE line...

[dodge321]

Originally Posted by Sabanban

共产党的抗日史是bullshit. 没有美国的弹药支持,中国可能会被日本全部吃掉。你难道相信小米加步枪就能打败日本?

说的真好,你就待在你的可能世界里吧。
光弹药就能打赢一个战争?不需要用弹药的人,弹药会自己去炸日本人?好像只有给弹药的人有功,而用的人没劳。我没否认美国和国民党打过日本人, 但你说没共产党抗日史这话简直是狗屁。

Originally Posted by Sabanban

That is not fair to the history. Without American, how could Chinese fight Japanese then?

I like your attitude, China was destined to be occupied by the Japanese, that is of course, till the Americans came along with their awesome powers and liberated China from the Japanese. I mean how could Chinese fight Japanese without the Americans?? Ludicrous.

I don't even know why I bother responding.

[no1gizmo]

Originally Posted by z0rg

YelloPerilo is my personal hero

Yes, for me too. He showed me that chinese problems are not my problems. (oh, of course there are no chinese problemes, the CCP is doing well and its just me who thinks, there are problems).

You are right, YelloPerilo. I am glad Mao Zedong killed only chinese people, not westerners and especially no germans. So why should I care? The CCP is in fact better than a democracy party, because the CCP can do what it wants ... and it wants foreign invest.

I will stop talking about democrazy from now on. I will just enjoy this country knowing that I will never be sentenced to death like a chinese in this country.
When I am sick of the chinese living standard, I will just go back to my home country with the not perfect democrazy system, but I will close my lips while I am here, in the People`s Republic of China.

Problems of China are not my problems. I am leaving the discussion now.

[BarbaricManchurian]

Originally Posted by Andrew

From my first trip to Beijing in 2006 I would agree with that description, but I went back in March this year and I have to say that the subway has changed almost beyond recognition in those three years.

yeah, on my last trip in 2008 I only went on line 5, which was new but not as clean as I had hoped. However, I don't think lines 1 & 2 have changed that much, they are retro but extremely functional and despite being "old" in Chinese new economy terms, they are still better than the vast majority of North American and European subways.

[BarbaricManchurian]

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Yes, for me too. He showed me that chinese problems are not my problems. (oh, of course there are no chinese problemes, the CCP is doing well and its just me who thinks, there are problems).

You are right, YelloPerilo. I am glad Mao Zedong killed only chinese people, not westerners and especially no germans. So why should I care? The CCP is in fact better than a democracy party, because the CCP can do what it wants ... and it wants foreign invest.

I will stop talking about democrazy from now on. I will just enjoy this country knowing that I will never be sentenced to death like a chinese in this country.
When I am sick of the chinese living standard, I will just go back to my home country with the not perfect democrazy system, but I will close my lips while I am here, in the People`s Republic of China.

Problems of China are not my problems. I am leaving the discussion now.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. If you don't understand the Asian mentality in the first place, you shouldn't be commenting. Especially when you post like an arrogant Westerner saying that democracy is so much better, blah blah blah, when in fact there are many indicators showing the PRC's system is better (not saying that it was your intention to be arrogant, just watch what you type so you don't give that impression).

[alec74]

Originally Posted by no1gizmo

Yes, for me too. He showed me that chinese problems are not my problems. (oh, of course there are no chinese problemes, the CCP is doing well and its just me who thinks, there are problems).

You are right, YelloPerilo. I am glad Mao Zedong killed only chinese people, not westerners and especially no germans. So why should I care? The CCP is in fact better than a democracy party, because the CCP can do what it wants ... and it wants foreign invest.

I will stop talking about democrazy from now on. I will just enjoy this country knowing that I will never be sentenced to death like a chinese in this country.
When I am sick of the chinese living standard, I will just go back to my home country with the not perfect democrazy system, but I will close my lips while I am here, in the People`s Republic of China.

Problems of China are not my problems. I am leaving the discussion now.

Or u can happen to be sentenced to death and not even have the possibility to prove ur innocence in democratic USA..anything can happen, who knows. But please spare us the "easily-offended" attitude so common in us westerners when confronted with the many many many shortcomings of our new laic religion: "democracy". Stating that "western democracy" is the "best system in the world" exemplifies enough how little u know about how really the "democratic" process works in our countries, and how little u understand of the world that surrounds u. The CCP, with all its shortcomings, all its errors and so on, is arguably doing a very good job in making china grow and make the life of chinese people better..Pretending to change this faulty system with our not less faulty system out of an act of "faith", or simply because we think it's better, is a little arrogant, and silly, wouldn't u think? Let the chinese free to choose their own political and social system, and put aside ur western superiority-complex, that I too, though a westerner myself, can't personally stand...

[Celebriton]

Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian

Beijing's subway is mostly old, crowded, and somewhat dirty, but is always reliable, and gets you to most important places; it's not very big yet but to say it's not great is just foolish. Just look at North American and most European subway systems, even the worst Asian subway system seems amazing compared to those.

I wonder why Europe and North America don't renovate their subway to be more modern and futuristic?

[Haoting]

Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian

yeah, on my last trip in 2008 I only went on line 5, which was new but not as clean as I had hoped. However, I don't think lines 1 & 2 have changed that much, they are retro but extremely functional and despite being "old" in Chinese new economy terms, they are still better than the vast majority of North American and European subways.

Beijing's Line 2 has all new trains, but line 1 still has quite a few of the old subway cars (with no air conditioning). Some of the subway stations on line 1 and 2 do need renovating, but it's not as bad as Chongqing with their 3 year old maglev system which has water leaking from the ceiling at one of their downtown underground stations.

@McKendy
Your right about a democratic system only serving the majority, a 51% majority can dictate to the 49% minority. Take for example, in the Canadian province of Quebec where the French majority has implemented French-only language laws to suppress English-Canadians and the various non-French minority groups. It's unbelievable that the Canadian government allows the separatist leaning French majority in Quebec to force immigrants from non-English speaking countries to French-only schools.

@Simon
I assume the aboriginals in Taiwan have very little say or influence on the island because their voice isn't heard in Taiwan's parliament. A democratic system has its faults, especially when it comes to minority rights.

[Sabanban]

Originally Posted by dodge321

说的真好,你就待在你的可能世界里吧。
光弹药就能打赢一个战争?不需要用弹药的人,弹药会自己去炸日本人?好像只有给弹药的人有功,而用的人没劳。我没否认美国和国民党打过日本人, 但你说没共产党抗日史这话简直是狗屁。



I like your attitude, China was destined to be occupied by the Japanese, that is of course, till the Americans came along with their awesome powers and liberated China from the Japanese. I mean how could Chinese fight Japanese without the Americans?? Ludicrous.

I don't even know why I bother responding.

我没说共产党没抗日。我说我以前在中国读的共产党写的抗日史是bullshit。 以前共产党写的抗日史只吹嘘共产党打的几个小战，很多抗战的重要战役和事件都不讲。其实，共产党在抗日战争中起的作用是很小的。

日本人没花大力气去消灭八路军， 而花大力气去遥远的缅甸斩断中国的武器后援线。就知道哪个对抗日更重要。 可以这么说，没有美国的参战，中国必被日本全面占领。 中国那时的国力和日本差太远。你看了凤凰卫视拍的30 集video 就知道了。 那时中国的军队根本不是日本的对手。日本的一个营敢攻击中国的一个师。不仅中国不是，连装备比中国强的英国的军队也不是。虽然日本国小， 但日本还有不少中国伪军的协助。 别忘了，明朝当初也是这样被当时的满人小国给灭的。 中国人现在不原意承认这点。

武器弹药和人都只是战争取胜的必要条件，不是充分条件。 但是没有武器弹药却是现代战争失败的充分条件。 从你的什么狗屁逻辑推出我认为只需要武器弹药而不需要人就能打赢战争？