Seattle Coffee Shop

[seapug]

Every time I watch the news it seems they're showing people from the suburbs complaining about Seattle parking. Is the parking situation actually causing a problem or is this just your typical suburban complaints about the evil city?

[bgwah]

Originally Posted by seapug

Every time I watch the news it seems they're showing people from the suburbs complaining about Seattle parking. Is the parking situation actually causing a problem or is this just your typical suburban complaints about the evil city?

It's mostly just whining...

But it can be kind of frustrating for us suburbanites. The bus system out here is pretty terrible, and there often isn't any alternative to driving for us.

[Rogue Linguist]

Originally Posted by seapug

Every time I watch the news it seems they're showing people from the suburbs complaining about Seattle parking. Is the parking situation actually causing a problem or is this just your typical suburban complaints about the evil city?

Bahahaha. I couldn't have framed it in better terms. I love it when people who don't even live in the city or contribute to its infrastracture through taxes complain about the lack of free parking for them when they visit, all the while ignoring issues like urban blight.

In places like Australia, it's weird, because Australia doesn't really have large central city governments in its metropolises (possibly with the exception of Brisbane). It just has metropolitan areas which are divided up into very tiny borough-like "municipalities" which may have, like, a few thousand residents each. (It would be like if Seattle's city government didn't exist, and all its neighbourhoods had their own governments.) So there, looking at things in terms of a large central city government being exploited by surrounding municipalities becomes difficult. In most cities around the world, including Seattle, it's much more clear-cut and we can easily look at how suburbanites relate to a central city entity.

[RMacherat]

This will be unpopular, but The City may regret cutting off the suburbs in the dream to eliminate driving and move to bikes and yurts. All those stores and restaurants are not thriving on downtowners and tourists alone.

[Rogue Linguist]

Originally Posted by RMacherat

This will be unpopular, but The City may regret cutting off the suburbs in the dream to eliminate driving and move to bikes and yurts. All those stores and restaurants are not thriving on downtowners and tourists alone.

That's true. Cars might need to be accommodated. But maybe they can begin to be treated as just one of multiple transportation options, as opposed to the overwhelmingly dominant one.

And when people do choose to drive, they really need to stop complaining about traffic, because, you know, they're contributing to the very traffic they're complaining about, just like everybody else who's stuck in it.

[seapug]

I agree with rogue. I love living downtown. It really bothers me how the streets are designed for people that don't even live there. It's designed for people that drive in park their car for a few hours and leave. Feels like a big middle finger to the residents of downtown. Ofcourse I'm ok if they bring their car, but the city needs to stop allowing them to drive the way they do. especially during the evening rush. Feels like I'm playing frogger sometimes.

[mhays]

Amen to that. I'd call it whack-a-mole rather than frogger though.

Downtown's role as a regional driver restaurant destination will reduce, and I'd guess might have already reduced. That's natural as a place densifies and grows. Other factors will keep it healthy as a restaurant area -- rail transit and buses, Downtown residents, tourism, office growth, etc.

I was in Vancouver for a couple days this week. That's the model we're heading toward. They do fine. (PS, fewer asshole drivers too...crosswalks are relatively respected there.)

[LCIII]

Oh god...

[testdrive]

Any city needs to make sure not to alienate the burbs. If you look at Detroit that is exactly what happened as the city administration basically told the burbs to go f... themselves because they didn't need them and you can see how well that worked. They are now trying to reverse that and get people to move back into the urban core but it will take decades to undo that decision. Granted it was not the biggest factor that caused the decline but it was a significant one. The reality is IMO is there will always have to be a reasonable accommodation for the car at least until there is a decent regional mass transit alternative which does not exist now.

[Doomgoggles]

Fortunately, we have a decent REGIONAL transit agency working hard to make it easier to get to the city center without cars.

Also, here's my perspective on parking. I used to be exactly this: an affluent suburbanite, loved driving, hated city streets, wouldn't dream of paying for parking. It honestly is a very alien concept to a lot of people from the exurbs. Well, a series of jobs in downtown Seattle began to change my opinion. I saw that the only way to reduce congestion and make it pleasant to drive and park in a city is to charge for it and restrict it.

Now I drive when I have to (because it's STILL faster, even with average traffic delays), but I take the Sounder of ST Express bus when I can. (I live in downtown Everett).

You'll never get everyone to give up their cars, but providing excellent one-seat trips from major suburban and satellite city destinations will go a LONG ways towards reducing problem downtown.

[mhays]

Speaking of Downtown Everett, I found out on Thursday, riding Amtrak, that Everett has a rail tunnel. Can't believe I didn't know, or at least wonder how trains got from the waterfront to the station. Pretty sure I didn't know that even before turning 40 when the brain cells started falling off. Anyway, it's impressive that the tunnel exists, and certainly helpful as Everett grows. Nice to see the big apartment buildings from the train also.

[Matt the Engineer]

Roads and parking spaces take up a certain amout of area per vehicle, which is more or less a fixed number. As you increase density the number of people goes up but the amount of area for parking and roads can only increase to a certain point. As you increase further, driving can't physically be an option for everyone - there just isn't enough space for all of the cars, and it takes longer and longer for them to get around. It seems like Seattle has passed this point, and is starting to not only accept other ways of getting around, but also realizing that this can be a desirable lifestyle. I have an elderly uncle that lives happily in Manhattan in a 150sf apartment and has never driven a car. Visit an old section of a European city, and you quickly realize that not only do you not need a car, but you don't need transit.

Of course, the suburbanites haven't followed the same journey that we have, and have no need to think through the issues involved. They drive here because they drive everywhere, and know no other way of living.

[Doomgoggles]

Originally Posted by mhays

Speaking of Downtown Everett, I found out on Thursday, riding Amtrak, that Everett has a rail tunnel. Can't believe I didn't know, or at least wonder how trains got from the waterfront to the station. Pretty sure I didn't know that even before turning 40 when the brain cells started falling off. Anyway, it's impressive that the tunnel exists, and certainly helpful as Everett grows. Nice to see the big apartment buildings from the train also.

Haha yes...it's pretty visible from google maps. That's why Broadway goes over that huge hump.

It is nice to see all those new apartments around Library place, but there's SO much room for development downtown. I wish that Marriott was still going in, but I think it was put on hold indefinitely.

[mhays]

I really need to tour Everett along with Bellingham, Spokane, Vancouver WA, Yakima, etc. Have paused briefly in all of them but really don't know them.

[LCIII]

According to CEOs Washington State sucks for doing business. Interesting analysis here. Given their findings and the fact that McKenna has a healthy lead on Insley, maybe we'll start to move up the list instead of down.

http://www.nwdailymarker.com/2012/05...o-do-business/

[BoulderGrad]

Originally Posted by LCIII

According to CEOs Washington State sucks for doing business. Interesting analysis here. Given their findings and the fact that McKenna has a healthy lead on Insley, maybe we'll start to move up the list instead of down.

http://www.nwdailymarker.com/2012/05...o-do-business/

This coming from the people who get multi-million dollar bonuses while their company asks for billions of dollars in bailouts because of how badly they effed up. Sits just fine with me if they find it tough to do that here.

[RMacherat]

It might be interesting to consider how Europe (and Manhattan) were settled. It's a little late to go back and duplicate the evolution of a landless peasantry. In time the United States will resemble all those quaint places we we backpack through when we're young and brilliant, but it won't happen as quickly as many might hope.

[bgwah]

Originally Posted by LCIII

According to CEOs Washington State sucks for doing business. Interesting analysis here. Given their findings and the fact that McKenna has a healthy lead on Insley, maybe we'll start to move up the list instead of down.

http://www.nwdailymarker.com/2012/05...o-do-business/

Who is Insley? lol

[LCIII]

Inslee...whatever...

[Rogue Linguist]

What do you guys think about this article on parking in The Seattle Times? I'm particularly curious what people think about the statistics cited and the way they're interpreted by the author. I see a few fallacies myself: is/ought fallacy, argumentum ad antiquitatem, argumentum ad populum, and false equivalency (driving rates for King County are not the same as driving rates for Seattle). And of course there is the question whether anti-density policy is the very reason why so many Seattleites drive in the first place, and that the percentage of drivers might change if the City actually changed its policy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...needle08m.html