Severn Tidal Power

[Weston1]

As a very relevant and topical issue for this area, TENONS, The Environmental Network of North Somerset, are running a conference about the Severn Estuary and the proposition to use its tidal range to produce electricity.

The event is free and open to everyone.

We have invited high profile experts to come along to speak to us about barrages, lagoons and tidal reefs with a further expert giving us an overview.

The Blakehay Centre
Wadham Street (next to Grove Park Car Park)
Weston-super-Mare BS23 1JZ

Saturday 24 October 2009

9.45am – 12.45pm

Introduced by
Marian Barber, Head of Economy & Regeneration, North Somerset Council

With

Rupert Armstrong Evans, Evans Engineering : Tidal Reef
Professor Roger Falconer, Cardiff University : Tidal Barrage & Lagoon
Peter Kydd, Director of Planning & Environment, Parsons Brinckerhoff : Overview on Tidal Options

This is a chance to hear about the technology for the schemes and an opportunity to ask questions.

More details on www.tenons.org.uk

[Weston1]

Only 2 days to go to this event!

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[Weston1]

In October last year, the Blakehay Theatre in Weston-super-Mare was filled by people wanting to hear some of the nation’s experts explain a range of technologies to capture the tidal energy of the Severn Estuary. On 20th March, a second presentation is being organised by TENONS to consider the potential impact by these schemes on the environment of the estuary, on local jobs and our future.

We are delighted again to have a high profile panel of speakers offering an extensive range of research and experience. Dr Robert Kirby, an oceanographer, Dr Roger Wade from the Environment Agency, Adrian Jowitt from Natural England, John Chaplin, Director of Engineering from the Port of Bristol Company and Professor Nick Pidgeon from Cardiff University, a researcher in risk attitudes and behaviour relating to climate change and energy choices.

This is a FREE public presentation offering a unique opportunity to learn and listen, to question and challenge. The presentation on Saturday 20th March 2010 will start at 9.45am and end at 12.45pm. The venue is The Blakehay Theatre, Wadham Street (next to Grove Park Car Park) Weston-super-Mare, North Somerset.

Undoubtedly an exciting, thought provoking and educational experience and we do hope that you can find time to attend. For more details of the event visit www.tenons.org.uk or phone 01934 623000. To find out more about Severn Estuary Tidal Power and the consultation process go to www.severntidalpowerconsultation.decc.gov.uk

[bertyboy]

What happened to this plan? Did the new government quietly shelve this?

[Schmeek]

Yes it's gone Berty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...arrage-nuclear

[guyb121]

Should this thread be archived now as the project definatly isn't going to happen???

[JordanEDunston7789]

Originally Posted by Schmeek

Yes it's gone Berty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...arrage-nuclear

Wow nice link!

[bertyboy]

Originally Posted by guyb121

Should this thread be archived now as the project definatly isn't going to happen???

"On Hold" or "Cancelled"?

Personally, I still think they should consider tidal lagoons - still plenty power to be had at a percentage of the cost, and less damage to the mudflats.

[BoyamIjealous]

Originally Posted by bertyboy

"On Hold" or "Cancelled"?

Personally, I still think they should consider tidal lagoons - still plenty power to be had at a percentage of the cost, and less damage to the mudflats.

Cancelled looks favourite. The website for Port of Bristol has a quote from a top-brass saying that now the final nail is in the coffin of the barrage, the deepwater expansion can go ahead. That obviously would be nigh impossible with a barrage, and it looks like work is already under way.

[bertyboy]

Fair enough. Do the PoB plans involve full containerisation? I thought the Bristol Channel was still too tidal and silty to be a major port?

[Delirium]

Originally Posted by bertyboy

I thought the Bristol Channel was still too tidal and silty to be a major port?

No.

[tpm]

Severn barrage: £30bn project examined by David Cameron's officials
Plans for a £30bn barrage across the Severn estuary have been given a boost after Prime Minister David Cameron instructed officials to look into them. (full story)

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by tpm

Severn barrage: £30bn project examined by David Cameron's officials
Plans for a £30bn barrage across the Severn estuary have been given a boost after Prime Minister David Cameron instructed officials to look into them. (full story)

To be honest, it would be a great power source AND solve the Severn Tunnel problem. Brucie bonus!

[dronkula]

Whilst it would be a great energy source (something like could produce 5% of the UK total power needs on its own?) the main problems with it now are:

1) The Port of Bristol is expanding and this would seriously affect it - whilst there would be a lock-gate through it, it would still reduce the number of ship movements each day up the Bristol channel
2) Oldbury Nuclear Power Station upstream has been chosen as a location for a new nuclear power station. There would be concerns about the lagoon created by the barrage become a radioactive lake.
3) RSPB have not been a fan of this scheme and there are serious concerns about the loss of the wading bird habitats in the Bristol channel
4) Who's actually got the £30bn to pay for it to begin with?

Point 1 isn't insurmountable. Thinking 'outside to box' - if the barrage is also going to have a motorway and rail link going across it, how about having a port built along it too and giving the Port of Bristol the 'franchise' to run it?
Point 3 could be overcome with compensatory land created downstream of the barrier - although I suspect the RSPB would prefer tidal lagoons instead of the barrage.
Point 4 is just a question of money - if a private consortium think they can get the money for this, then that's it.

Point 2 is the big issue though. The only way to avoid this is to NOT build the new nuclear power station at Oldbury. If the barrage had progressed 10 years ago this wouldn't have been an issue but it's just too late now.

[Delirium]

Bury it, it's a stupid idea. It'll both fuck up the West of England economy and it's natural environment. Whoop de doo. One thing is for certain, it'll cost far more than the £30 billion price tag that's being flaunted.

Point 1 isn't insurmountable. Thinking 'outside to box' - if the barrage is also going to have a motorway and rail link going across it, how about having a port built along it too and giving the Port of Bristol the 'franchise' to run it?

Actually, it is pretty much insurmountable. In order for such a port to be able to function, and be even remotely successful, copious portions of land would have to be reclaimed along side it, which would be incredibly expensive. Either that or they would have to transport cargo from the barrage to sites at Portbury and Avonmouth.
Either way it would make the port far more expensive to use and run, and far more inefficient and uncompetitive than it's rivals. It'll be waaaay more convenient to use the likes of Southampton and Liverpool.

Point 3 could be overcome with compensatory land created downstream of the barrier.

From past examples it's been shown that something like that really doesn't work; expecting the fauna to somehow 'relocate' from something like would be incredibly naive, to put it bluntly. The native species around the estuary are adapted for that specific area; they won't relocate, they'll die. Even if it's just several miles away.

The area affected will also be huge, covering at least a 100 miles of estuary and river bank, so you're also decreasing the areas of suitable habit significantly. Any compensatory land wouldn't be big enough in the least.

[JamesWales]

Originally Posted by Delirium

Bury it, it's a stupid idea. It'll both fuck up the West of England economy and it's natural environment. Whoop de doo. One thing is for certain, it'll cost far more than the £30 billion price tag that's being flaunted.



Actually, it is pretty much insurmountable. In order for such a port to be able to function, and be even remotely successful, copious portions of land would have to be reclaimed along side it, which would be incredibly expensive. Either that or they would have to transport cargo from the barrage to sites at Portbury and Avonmouth.
Either way it would make the port far more expensive to use and run, and far more inefficient and uncompetitive than it's rivals. It'll be waaaay more convenient to use the likes of Southampton and Liverpool.



From past examples it's been shown that something like that really doesn't work; expecting the fauna to somehow 'relocate' from something like would be incredibly naive, to put it bluntly. The native species around the estuary are adapted for that specific area; they won't relocate, they'll die. Even if it's just several miles away.

The area affected will also be huge, covering at least a 100 miles of estuary and river bank, so you're also decreasing the areas of suitable habit significantly. Any compensatory land wouldn't be big enough in the least.

I can see that from a Bristolian point of view, the barrage (should it include a road) would be seen as economically disadvantageous, as at a stroke, Cardiff would be the closest big city, airport, centre for shopping etc for most of the west country. Needless to say, I don't have a problem with that, but I recognise it would be an issue.

Regarding the ports, it would affect Cardiff Docks and Newport Docks as much
as Avonmouth, and I'm sure all 3 ports, while in competition with each other will campaign to get a suitable locking system in place. I spend a lot of time on the south Wales coast and the channel is a busy shipping lane, but no so busy that navigating a lock need cause too much of a delay surely? Maybe it adds 20-30 minutes? I don't know, but as said, I can see that Avonmouth would lose some competitive edge compared to other UK ports, but so too would Cardiff and Newport. In addition, I'm sure the long construction period could provide a boon to all 3 ports in the interim.

Regarding wildlife matters..it's something I personally choose to leave to experts. I know though that conservationists' default position is conservative (well, duuur!) and I've found them prone to hyperbole..certainly I know this was the case with the Cardiff Bay barrage. Personally, I think the enviornmental benefits of cleanly producing 5% of the UK's electricity are compelling, and while I don't dismiss the impact on wildlife, I think nature reacts to things better than we give it credit. The world has constantly changed, and only a small amount in the grand scheme of history man-made change.

As for the nuclear power station...this is either a game ender or a non-issue, as there is no way the government would mess around with that. The estuary is 'flooded' 50% of the time as it is, when the tide is in, so I don't see why it being flooded 100% of the time makes nuclear disaster more likely?

Finally, regardless of whether we live in south wales or south west england, I think this is the kind of ambitious engineering project that Britain should be considering.

Overall, I'm cautious but firmly behind the project and I'm glad it seems to be gaining some momentum.

FYI-report from the Western Mail (welsh paper) http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...1466-31653653/

[master2k27]

5% of clean quite reliable renewable power would be a big asset to the UK.

[Delirium]

5% isn't a lot, not for the sheer size of the project, and by the time it's completed, other renewable energy sources will be refined.

Originally Posted by JamesWales

I can see that from a Bristolian point of view, the barrage (should it include a road) would be seen as economically disadvantageous, as at a stroke, Cardiff would be the closest big city, airport, centre for shopping etc for most of the west country. Needless to say, I don't have a problem with that, but I recognise it would be an issue.

It's safe to say that of the economic issues and problems that Bristol faces from a potential barrage, Cardiff won't be one of them.
If anything, a barrage would make it even easier for people to commute out of Cardiff and into Bristol.

You're also under the assumption that the Westcountry has the same subservient relationship and high level of inequality that South-East Wales has with Cardiff, and that by building the barrage, places such as Burnham-on-sea will take on a similar connection. They won't. You also assume Cardiff will become way more closer to those living south west of the barrage, than they currently are to brizzle. It won't. A 5 minute difference, max

And Bristol's wider catchment, a/o the areas east of Bridgwater and the M5, aren't going to find themselves any closer to Cardiff over Bristol. South of Taunton, people gravitate far more towards Exeter and Plymouth; they're not going to travel to Bristol or Cardiff any more than they do already, which is rarely and for fairly specific reasons. Certainly not for regular shopping or leisure which isn't any better over in Wales. There's also the bridge toll that'll put people off.

As for the airport, I think it's safe to say that by the time any barrage is built, Cardiff won't have an airport at the current rate .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-19333147

But seriously, as an airport why would someone from Devon or Cornwall go to CWL when the range and costs of flights is identical but closer to home at Exeter airport or to BRS where the selection more frequent, larger and cheaper?

Regardless, any barrage project won't be completed for at least a decade, enough time for a decent mayor to prepare the city.

Originally Posted by JamesWales

As for the nuclear power station...this is either a game ender or a non-issue, as there is no way the government would mess around with that. The estuary is 'flooded' 50% of the time as it is, when the tide is in, so I don't see why it being flooded 100% of the time makes nuclear disaster more likely?

I think the issue is that any nuclear 'essence' that is released with the water at Oldbury, currently gets washed out to sea fairly quickly, but with the barrage it would create a large 'stagnant' and silty pool of water which would allow a gradual build up of Oldbury's finest..

[JamesWales]

Hmm, I do find your posts a tad condescending, but leaving that aside, please do tell me how you feel the economic disadvantages of ships navigating a lock to access Avonmouth Docks (which Cardiff and Newport docks will also suffer from) is greater than the economic disadvantages of the several million people suddenly having another major city for employment, retail, leisure, culture etc closer to them than Bristol is?

I don’t get that. I can see that Avonmouth Docks will consider the barrage a pain, but (on a far lesser scale admittedly) Cardiff Bay barrage is a pain to leisure boats in the Bay, but it hasn’t stopped an enormous explosion in marinas in recent years.

I think you underestimate the importance of Bristol’s location. Located where it is, it means that pretty much all ‘traffic’ (people, goods, services, whatever) from the South West going to the midlands, London, the North, south Wales etc, passes through Bristol. Likewise, all traffic from south Wales going to London, southern or south Western England also passes through the Bristol area. The barrage, with a road, would fundamentally change this relationship.

No longer would there be much locational advantage in serving ‘Wales and the South West’ in Bristol, over Cardiff, or Newport. No longer would Bristol benefit from being the closest major airport to the south west. No longer would commuters in Somerset automatically view Bristol as the nearest jobs market. No longer would people from Devon automatically choose the touring west end show in Bristol over one in Cardiff. Personally, I think the change would be pretty fundamental. I don’t think Cardiff would become the ‘city of choice’ for the south west, but it would a damned site more than it currently is.

I was raised in Devon, much of my family are there. I know well the cultural and economic relationship between the south West and Bristol, and with south Wales. I know the benefits that Bristol has through being close to both areas, and I think the relationship would change if a road is offered between Cardiff and Weston…I struggle to see why you don’t view that as an factor.

As for the airport, it would make a difference, as Bristol airport relies on the wider catchment area (as all airport do) the barrage would at a stroke make Cardiff as close to Bristol for millions of people..I know that currently Bristol airport is far superior, but I think you are a tad naive to think it wouldn’t make a difference.

Point noted on the nuclear issue, but I’m sure it can be overcome, and besides, in scope and scale the barrage far exceeds Oldbury nuclear power station, so if anything were to budge, it would be the nuclear power station.

Aside from the fact this is happening in Severnside, do you think this is the kind of project that Britain should be at least seriously considering?