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Old September 20th, 2009, 04:22 AM   #21
interesting monster
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Who makes the rolling stock, anyone know?
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Old September 20th, 2009, 08:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by interesting monster View Post
Who makes the rolling stock, anyone know?
I have answered this question on #16 post of this thread.
first 361 cars made by Bombardier-Sifang-Power(Bombardier-Sifang now).
http://en.bsp.cn/docc/QZKC-YZ.asp

Another rolling stocks were made by Puzhen rolling stock, Tangshan rolling stock, and Changchun rolling stock.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 11:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Tibet province is about 3.5 times a big as Germany and there is only one railway connecting this poor and backward region with the more advanced regions of the whole country.

What is your proposal to improve the economic and cultural life of this region? How should this region be modernised? Or do you think Tibet province should stay in the past like an open air museum to please your curiosity of "exotism"?
These Europeans do not have any plans at all. They forgot that they colonized North America, Australia, New Zealand etc
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Old September 20th, 2009, 12:09 PM   #24
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Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want? But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 12:20 PM   #25
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looks like a great trip
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Old September 20th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #26
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tibet is part of china long before europeans knew there were americas.do some research before try to claim moral high ground.but one thing that you are right,it is not the place that political issues should be disscussed about.so,please...
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Old September 20th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want? But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.
It seems that you are the representitive of Tibetans.
Did you know the really thought of Tibetans?
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Old September 20th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #28
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tibet is part of china long before europeans knew there were americas.do some research before try to claim moral high ground
Well, that's not completely true. Tibet was autonomous under Chinese protection for thousands of years. In the 50ies China ended that status by invading and forcing the Tibetan government to go into exile, and started to destroy systematically the Tibetan culture (the cultureal revolution which fortunately didn't succeed in the rest of China, too). Hardly an glorious aid to modernize another people, imo. It doesn't matter that it's the Cinese in this case or someone else in another case. It's wrong in any case to take autonomous decision power from someone else.
I don't claim moral high ground, I use my right of opinion and my right to express it. So deal with it!. If you're not able to do so it's not my problem at all.


And now, lets go btt and talk about this uber-awesome railway you guys have there.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 03:31 PM   #29
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How about sticking to the fantastic engineering feat that is this railway?

The Chinese don't get western political viewpoints and the fact westerners by and large, don't suffer from the phenomenon of keeping face. And the westerners don't get chinese political viewpoints and are generally ignorant about how easy it is to bring shame and break face with the Chinese on sensitive matters like these.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 03:53 PM   #30
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Old September 20th, 2009, 04:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want? But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
Wich country does not need help from China? Iraq or Afghanistan? Tibet hasn't been a country since the 13th century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
Who do you mean by Tibetans? The small thoecratic clique made of slave owners or the vast majority made of slaves and serf?

There is always a good reason to commit terrorist acts, particularly if they are financed and supported by the "free and demobcratic" "West".

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.
Of course Europeans wouldn't occupy other countries like they did before. Their last attempt failed miserably in Vietnam. Freedom and demobcrazy is a much better excuse. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan where destruction and death happens on a daily basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, that's not completely true. Tibet was autonomous under Chinese protection for thousands of years. In the 50ies China ended that status by invading and forcing the Tibetan government to go into exile, and started to destroy systematically the Tibetan culture (the cultureal revolution which fortunately didn't succeed in the rest of China, too). Hardly an glorious aid to modernize another people, imo. It doesn't matter that it's the Cinese in this case or someone else in another case. It's wrong in any case to take autonomous decision power from someone else.
Oh yeah, systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture by raising the literacy of the Tibetan language from merely 5% to over 50%, abolishing slavery, serfdom and an inhuman caste system. All these acts truly are hindering natural human progress.

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
I don't claim moral high ground, I use my right of opinion and my right to express it. So deal with it!. If you're not able to do so it's not my problem at all.
As your opinion is not based on historical facts, what is your opinion based on? If you don't base your opinion on moral high ground then your opinion has no positive contribution of a matter. In that case you might as well shut up, no?
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Old September 20th, 2009, 05:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Wich country does not need help from China? Iraq or Afghanistan? Tibet hasn't been a country since the 13th century.
Your point being? Btw., of course Tibet wasn't a country before the 17th century. Neither was China. Why? Because our modern understanding of how to define a country started to develop in the 17th century.


Quote:
Who do you mean by Tibetans? The small thoecratic clique made of slave owners or the vast majority made of slaves and serf?

There is always a good reason to commit terrorist acts, particularly if they are financed and supported by the "free and demobcratic" "West".
Believe me, I knew that Tibet used to be a feudal system and I don't think that this was better. But it does never justify taking independence from a people. It needs to develop itself. According to what I know, the society was far from what one would consider Western standards, but the people accepted it and were happy with it.
It's always foreigners thinking that they would be needed to "help" the barbars. Not only in this case!



Quote:
Of course Europeans wouldn't occupy other countries like they did before. Their last attempt failed miserably in Vietnam. Freedom and demobcrazy is a much better excuse. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan where destruction and death happens on a daily basis.
Unfortunately, you're right. Except for the point about permanent occupation. And about the Europeans, it's the Americans you mainly have to blaim (in all three cases).


Quote:
Oh yeah, systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture by raising the literacy of the Tibetan language from merely 5% to over 50%, abolishing slavery, serfdom and an inhuman caste system. All these acts truly are hindering natural human progress.
No. But the systematic destruction of thousands of pieces of arts, closing down hundreds of monastries, burning down temples and monastries and putting everyone into prison who owns religious symbols certainly does. (Btw. I'm not aware of any example during European colonisation)


Quote:
As your opinion is not based on historical facts, what is your opinion based on? If you don't base your opinion on moral high ground then your opinion has no positive contribution of a matter. In that case you might as well shut up, no?
Huh? Didn't you read the previous post? It's based on what I read, know and hear about a topic - any topic. And when I feel to express it, I do so. I certainly don't have the intention to make anyone here changing his opinion. But it doesn't hinder me expressing my opinion as this is my human right. And I certainly don't judge anyone about his opinion. That's the basic rules in the West, and you, living in Hamburg, should know and understand at least the way the Western people think. If you feel. If you can't accept other people having different opinions than yours and expressing it, you shouldn't hang around a forum (where the name implies exactly this: Discussing about opinions), no? I can accept that Chinese might have a different approach to the whole issue of personal opinion, but frankly, if you're in a world-wide forum, you should do so, too.

Maybe we can go btt, finally? You havn't contributed anything to it so far.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 06:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Your point being? Btw., of course Tibet wasn't a country before the 17th century. Neither was China. Why? Because our modern understanding of how to define a country started to develop in the 17th century.
Neither was Tibet a country after the 17th century. And it does not matter whether there is a country or not, as from Chinese perspective Tibet has been part and parcel of China since the Qing dynasty and no subsequent gov. ever though differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Believe me, I knew that Tibet used to be a feudal system and I don't think that this was better. But it does never justify taking independence from a people. It needs to develop itself. According to what I know, the society was far from what one would consider Western standards, but the people accepted it and were happy with it.
It's always foreigners thinking that they would be needed to "help" the barbars. Not only in this case!
If there ever was independence in Tibet at all. China and other countries never saw Tibet as an independent entity until the communist came to power. "Western" standard does not matter, unless it's ok for you to impose "western" standard on China but it's wrong to impose Chinese standard in China. Chinese don't see themselve as foreigners in China.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Unfortunately, you're right. Except for the point about permanent occupation. And about the Europeans, it's the Americans you mainly have to blaim (in all three cases).
Not only is the USofA Europe's master, they are also the perversion of Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
No. But the systematic destruction of thousands of pieces of arts, closing down hundreds of monastries, burning down temples and monastries and putting everyone into prison who owns religious symbols certainly does. (Btw. I'm not aware of any example during European colonisation)
The destruction happened all over China and all 56 ethnics. Don't try to project your unconscious racist thinking on China.

Of course you are not aware of European atrocities during the age of imperialism. The heathen in the colonies all conveted to Christianity voluntarily, all of them still retain their culture up to today if they were not exterminated or eke out their miserable existence in some reserves. May I remind you the destruction of Yuanmingyuan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Huh? Didn't you read the previous post? It's based on what I read, know and hear about a topic - any topic. And when I feel to express it, I do so. I certainly don't have the intention to make anyone here changing his opinion. But it doesn't hinder me expressing my opinion as this is my human right. And I certainly don't judge anyone about his opinion. That's the basic rules in the West, and you, living in Hamburg, should know and understand at least the way the Western people think. If you feel. If you can't accept other people having different opinions than yours and expressing it, you shouldn't hang around a forum (where the name implies exactly this: Discussing about opinions), no? I can accept that Chinese might have a different approach to the whole issue of personal opinion, but frankly, if you're in a world-wide forum, you should do so, too.
My opinion is based on history, culture, society and ethic. Yours is based on hot air and bullshit. Of course you can say whatever you want, I reserve the right to criticise your ignorance. Fiar game, mate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Maybe we can go btt, finally? You havn't contributed anything to it so far.
Neither do I see any of your contribution besides your drivel.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #34
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Cut the political crap, ok?

Anyways, what is the potential for this line to be extended further south to someday connect with other countries (knowing, of course, that there will be a break in standards to address along the way).



Mike
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Old September 20th, 2009, 07:21 PM   #35
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The destruction happened all over China and all 56 ethnics.
Obviously, you can't read. I wrote above that the Cultural Revolution wasn't successful in the whole of China, fortunately. It was probably the biggest perversion of a communist regime to try to systematically destroy the historical artefacts and traditions of its own country for ideological reasons in order to create a new kind of people.

Quote:
My opinion is based on history, culture, society and ethic. Yours is based on hot air and bullshit. Of course you can say whatever you want, I reserve the right to criticise your ignorance.
Well, we can meet there! For me, your opinion is mainly based on propaganda of the Chinese gouvernment and nothing but hot air and ignorance, too. The point is: I don't criticise you for it (because I can accept people thinking differntly), but you do so.

I think sarflonlad summed up the whole issue pretty good, don't you?

But to come btt finally:

I don't think that there's any chance for an extension to the south for both economical and geographical reasons: First of all, Nepal doesn't have the money to build a railway (and doesn't run a railway system at all so far), Bhutan doesn't want a railway as it would probably counteract their "ideology" of progress, so that leaves only India. But the more important point is that the Himalaya is too high to cut a railway line through it. And the southern ascent of the mountain range is way too steep to come up to the passes (with the passes being over 4000m on the Chinese-Nepal boarder and a drop to the Ganges valley the railway would have to master a drop of basically 4000m within a few 100kms). So I'd say it can't be done.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Obviously, you can't read. I wrote above that the Cultural Revolution wasn't successful in the whole of China, fortunately. It was probably the biggest perversion of a communist regime to try to systematically destroy the historical artefacts and traditions of its own country for ideological reasons in order to create a new kind of people.
You were the one claiming that the Chinese systematically destroyed Tibetan culture seperating the Tibetans from the 55 other ethnics of China.

Nobody in their right mind praises what happened during the cultural revolution. But you have to see that period a s a sort of Bildersturm that could happen after a revolution and China is no exception to it.

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, we can meet there! For me, your opinion is mainly based on propaganda of the Chinese gouvernment and nothing but hot air and ignorance, too. The point is: I don't criticise you for it (because I can accept people thinking differntly), but you do so.
Look into the mirror, change Chinese gov. with "the West" and repeat the same sentence again!
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Old September 20th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #37
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^you think the issue of tibet is exploited and manipulated?

remember, the issue is with 'cultural genocide', something that's highlighted about tibet, but occurs everywhere.

if people are going to use the whole propagandized idiocy of cultural genocide, we should examine why we're all typing in english.

what about the various minorities of europe and how they were forcibly assimilated and/or expelled?

what about the natives of the new world. i sure as hell know nothing about whatever tribes inhabited my neighborhood before they were miraculously wiped out.

various independence movements are championed because they serve a political purpose. the dalai lama and his ilk are given rock star status. it's akin to the US cheering on various independence movements in the former yugoslavia or the soviet union. natan sharansky, anyone? at the same time, independence movements in allied state and domestically are dismissed or ignored. 'cept many of you guys just don't get it.

what about native hawaiians who have gone through colonization, disenfranchisement, and now have bits of their culture marketed as hula dances and luaus for tourists in t-shirts? the dalai lama lives in hawaii. if he were fair, he'd use his cultural genocide line on that too.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 08:19 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Hm. Maybe the country wouldn't have needed Chinese "help" to develop their culture the way they want? But there's really no point to try to "discuss" this topic with you yp, we both know that.
It's not about being pretentious, it's about the right of people to decide for themselves what they want. Which Tibetans weren't able to do in the last 50 years and unfortunately won't be able to do in the near future either, obviously. There's a reason behind their protests in 2008.
So its not about how and why Europeans "civilised" the world (which I think wasn't the right thing either), there are more than 100 years of development between. You can be pretty sure that Europeans wouldn't have occupied other countries that way in the 1950ies.
The Europeans had already occupied huge areas of land by that time, the Indians and the Aboriginies were basically wiped out by that time and the Europeans were far more developed than China, which was at medieval levels of development in the 1950s. So the job of wiping out the natives was done by the 1950s and there was a 500-year gap between China and the West in the 1950s. China today is still not at the same level of development as the Europeans was in the 1950s, even after 30 years of very fast economic growth. This is something you should think about.

BTW; The railway is glorious! Definitely a work of art.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #39
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you guys can open another thread and we can talk about it freely there,i want to keep this one clean.
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Old September 20th, 2009, 08:59 PM   #40
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what are you people talking about here.... its an interesting railway, no politics
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