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Old July 12th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #21
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Virtually the same as AC Transit's Van Hool buses. Narrow aisles and seats that aren't on the floor. Further proof that VH has a tendency to make them that way
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Old July 12th, 2009, 09:48 PM   #22
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Evil foreign buses, how dare they spoil our fair land! We MUST bomb the country that made them!
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Old July 12th, 2009, 10:26 PM   #23
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Good one! No, we don't need to bomb the UK, but it makes little sense to violate Buy America laws and go all the way to Europe when there are perfectly good buses here in the US.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #24
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AC Transit went to Van Hool first and talked to them about what they could do. They then went back to America and put it up for bids online: rigged to look exactly what Van Hool offered. So of course, VH was the only bidder, because no American bus company could do what Van Hool would do.
Um, no. It wasn't 'rigged' to make Van Hool win, it was specified so that the buses answered to AC's demands. Neither Van Hool nor any North American manufacturer were building a bus that answered to their specifications at that time. Van Hool is just the only one who came forward and designed one that met the specs. If none of the North American manufacturers were able to do that, then that's THEIR fault for not being flexible enough to meet their customers' demands, not Van Hool's or AC Transit's.

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Okay, so are you guys saying that is AC had wanted it, Van Hool would have made buses with every seat on the floor, all the equipment in the back, the motor UNDER the floor, windows that really let air in, all of the doors the same size, the wheelchair ramp in front, and stop request chords?
They could've asked them to put in a friggin' horse stable and a sunroof and Van Hool would've found a way to get it done. So yes. If it's physically possible, they do it. About the engine under the floor though: how exactly do you suggest they put the engine under the floor of a LOW FLOOR bus? The same goes for the seats not all being all the floor: in a low-floor bus, exactly where do you suggest they put all the equipment that is now under some of the seats?

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No, we don't need to bomb the UK
The UK?? Since when is Van Hool from the UK???
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Old July 12th, 2009, 11:39 PM   #25
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Um, no. It wasn't 'rigged' to make Van Hool win, it was specified so that the buses answered to AC's demands. Neither Van Hool nor any North American manufacturer were building a bus that answered to their specifications at that time. Van Hool is just the only one who came forward and designed one that met the specs. If none of the North American manufacturers were able to do that, then that's THEIR fault for not being flexible enough to meet their customers' demands, not Van Hool's or AC Transit's.



They could've asked them to put in a friggin' horse stable and a sunroof and Van Hool would've found a way to get it done. So yes. If it's physically possible, they do it. About the engine under the floor though: how exactly do you suggest they put the engine under the floor of a LOW FLOOR bus? The same goes for the seats not all being all the floor: in a low-floor bus, exactly where do you suggest they put all the equipment that is now under some of the seats?



The UK?? Since when is Van Hool from the UK???
I'm sorry: but it was rigged. They talked to Van Hool BEFORE putting it up for bids. Van Hool was the only one to meet the specs because they WERE Van Hool specs.

About the seats on the floor: In an American built bus, the seats in the first two thirds are flat on the floor. When you get further toward the rear, you go up a couple of steps to a higher level. It's not the same height as the front of the bus but the seats are still on the floor. The motor and other equipment are under this rear elevated platform. Hence: all seats on the floor and none on pedestals. I get the distinct feeling that Van Hool would never do this.

UK? Oh sorry. Didn't mean to say that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTNM...layer_embedded
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Old July 13th, 2009, 12:15 AM   #26
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Van Hool was the only one to meet the specs because they WERE Van Hool specs.
No, they weren't. They were AC Transit specs. Just because you say it was 'rigged' doesn't miraculously make it so.

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About the seats on the floor: In an American built bus, the seats in the first two thirds are flat on the floor. When you get further toward the rear, you go up a couple of steps to a higher level.
Hence my question: in a LOW-FLOOR bus, exactly how do you suggest they put the engine under the floor? What you described is a SEMI-low floor bus. And that's not what AC Transit asked for, they asked for a full low-floor bus.

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I get the distinct feeling that Van Hool would never do this.
Meet the Van Hool A360:



Love the youtube link. Very professional Love particularly how they say 'meet an American true low floor bus'. Um, no miss, that's not a true low-floor bus, it's a semi-low floor bus.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #27
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I love how they compare a 30ft. Van Hool bus to a 40ft bus "American" bus AHA.

I don't see "rock climbing steps" and "bottleneck aisles" for any of York Transit's Viva Buses.
image hosted on flickr
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Old July 13th, 2009, 12:44 AM   #28
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In Europe, "Low Floor" caries a different definition. To us in America: it means buses WITH ALL SEATS ON THE FLOOR and no pedestals.

To you guys: It means seats on pedestals, not on the floor. Okay, the A360 is close, but I still see some rear pedestals.

A bus with seats on pedestals is Low Aisle, not Low Floor.

NO...AC Transit essentially asked for a Low Aisle European bus. If they wanted Low Floor, they would have gone to Gillig or NABI!
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Old July 13th, 2009, 12:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
NO...AC Transit essentially asked for a Low Aisle European bus. If they wanted Low Floor, they would have gone to Gillig or NABI!
AHA. Good. Discussion's over. Like we are all trying to point out: this is AC Transit's mistake. Not Van Hool.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 12:58 AM   #30
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I said that in post #20.

But it brings me to ask...why would a transit system want to buy buses from Europe, thereby violating Buy America laws and making it hard for disabled passengers to get to a seat?
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Old July 13th, 2009, 01:03 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
I said that in post #20.

But it brings me to ask...why would a transit system want to buy buses from Europe, thereby violating Buy America laws and making it hard for disabled passengers to get to a seat?
Because Van Hool buses last long and are built well. It was AC Transit's fault not fully customizing the Van Hool buses when they can be fully customized. Either way, the elderly and disabled should have access to the first two rows of the bus which are "low floor" already. A good, righteous person, would give up their seat to those who need it even if it's not required by law.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #32
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Yeah, but if you have a cane, you can't always get up to the seats well. I've seen passengers hoist themselves onto the foot-high seats. If they were on the floor as they should be there would be no problem.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #33
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I agree,they should have ordered from the hungarian NABI
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Old July 13th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #34
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I agree,they should have ordered from the hungarian NABI
Finally! Somebody who agrees with me

But they are now produced in America. They are mostly American content now.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Finally! Somebody who agrees with me

But they are now produced in America. They are mostly American content now.
They are hungarian buses. Location of production doesnt change that.

I dont know anything about them,we dont buy buses here that dont work in urban environment under heavy load. And many seats=low number of passangers.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 02:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
In Europe, "Low Floor" caries a different definition. To us in America: it means buses WITH ALL SEATS ON THE FLOOR and no pedestals.
So, it means that American "low floor bus" can have floor two meters above the ground as long as all seats are on the floor with no pedestial?
Genius.

Come on guys, I understand it's economic crisis, you want to protect your industry but please don't use stupid arguments that Ameriacan buses are somehow better or have more modern design. Quite opposite.

I have used busses in USA and avery time I did it I was surprised how outdated design they have. Most of the Europe (including countries like Poland which are much poorer than US) use much more modern buses.

American buses are noisy, they are box shaped like taken straight from 70-ties, with small number of doors which means slower exchange of passengers. Very few of them are low floor so they use lifts for wheelchairs.
In European buses floor is so low that you can drive your wheelchair using small automatic ramp hidden under door. It takes much less time than stupid heavy lifts which take a lot of space and time to load wheelchair.

As much as I like US (go there at least once a year) I try to stay clear of American buses.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 02:32 AM   #37
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http://www.nabusind.com/NABI/brt-bus.htm

Notice this isn't box shaped and they have 3 doors.

It has a good looking design.

Yes, some American buses are loud. The NABI high floors definitely are, but the low floors? Not really.

I think the trend in the US is going to Low Floor buses. LA, New York, Chicago, etc. High floor is not as common as it used to be here.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 02:47 AM   #38
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In Europe, "Low Floor" caries a different definition. To us in America: it means buses WITH ALL SEATS ON THE FLOOR and no pedestals.
No it doesn't. Maybe that's what YOU want it to mean, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote:
To you guys: It means seats on pedestals, not on the floor.
No, to us (and to you, whether you like that or not) a low floor bus means (shock, horror) that the bus has ... a low floor, and that low floor extends all the way to the back.

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Yeah, but if you have a cane, you can't always get up to the seats well. I've seen passengers hoist themselves onto the foot-high seats.
Tell me, what's the worst: not being able to get into a few seats on the bus that are higher up, or not being able to get into the entire back half of the bus because it's two feet higher than the rest?

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A bus with seats on pedestals is Low Aisle, not Low Floor.
Please don't just make up terminology as you go along. Besides, 'low aisle' would be a wrong term anyway, as in large chunks of the bus (as can clearly be seen in the picture of the VIVA-interior) the floor is low right across the bus, with seating on the floor.

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why would a transit system want to buy buses from Europe, thereby violating Buy America laws and making it hard for disabled passengers to get to a seat?
I've said it before, but I have the feeling that it's this more than anything else which bothers you about the Van Hools. Lovely concept these 'Buy American' laws btw, especially coming from a country that goes around the world telling everyone how free trade is the way to go...
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Old July 13th, 2009, 02:56 AM   #39
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No it doesn't. Maybe that's what YOU want it to mean, but that's neither here nor there.



No, to us (and to you, whether you like that or not) a low floor bus means (shock, horror) that the bus has ... a low floor, and that low floor extends all the way to the back.
Not to me, sorry!

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Tell me, what's the worst: not being able to get into a few seats on the bus that are higher up, or not being able to get into the entire back half of the bus because it's two feet higher than the rest?
I would rather the seats be on the floor and be able to sit in front rather than the entire bus having seats on pedestals.
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Originally Posted by Teach View Post
I've said it before, but I have the feeling that it's this more than anything else which bothers you about the Van Hools. Lovely concept these 'Buy American' laws btw, especially coming from a country that goes around the world telling everyone how free trade is the way to go...
No, really! federal funding for buses is supposed to be used on buses made IN America.

Bottom line: I'm not here to argue. My opinion is:
It's silly to go to Europe when companies like Gillig and NABI make perfectly good buses that work fine. AC Transit obviously prefers buses with pedestals, but they never bothered to ask the riders what they want.

People who are disabled can more easily get to seats on the floor in the priority seating area in front than climb up to the 12'' high seats on a pedestal.

The term "Low Floor" is widely used in America and usually means a bus with seats on the floor that does not require steps to enter the bus. Some of these have rear platforms with the motor under them, others have a motor compartment standing vertically in the rear.

Last edited by BART Rider; July 13th, 2009 at 03:02 AM.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 03:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
But it brings me to ask...why would a transit system want to buy buses from Europe, thereby violating Buy America laws and making it hard for disabled passengers to get to a seat?
I thought those "buy america" stupid laws weren't passed after EU and other developed countries objected.
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