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Old July 16th, 2009, 08:47 AM   #81
BART Rider
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You tell me. I have no idea.

Actually, there is something wrong with our A330's! They are some of the most cramped Van Hools we have!
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Old July 16th, 2009, 02:24 PM   #82
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Quote:
Yeah, but I think the process of making the hydrogen makes more green-house gasses than the diesel bus would.
Um, what does that have to do with the discussion? Absolutely nothing!

Quote:
You tell me. I have no idea.
I think that was what we call a hypothetical question...
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Old July 16th, 2009, 02:47 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
AC Transit in Alameda & Contra Costa Counties has purchased and unleashed horrible, in-accessible European buses over the last few years!
Not all European buses are the same.

For example, I've often used these:
[IMG]http://i32.************/xmsnwk.jpg[/IMG]
Solaris bus, from Poland.

Now let's look at your complaints:

1. The Van Hool Buses are very cramped inside.

These aren't.

2. All seats are on foot high pedestals. Aisles are very narrow.

These buses are completely low-floor.

3. Wheelchairs have to be loaded from the middle door.

Well, of course! It's much easier for them to reach the wheelchair space from the outside than through inside.

5. Wheelchairs cannot see where the bus is as their view is obstructed by the motor. The motor is in the middle of the bus!

This bus has a vertical motor in a corner in the rear.

6. There are stop request buttons. They don't make as much sense as the chords.

Oh noes! Something different!

12. They get very hot when you ride them on hot days.

These buses have airconditioning.

So you see, most of your complaints don't have anything to do with those buses being European.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 03:53 PM   #84
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So you see, most of your complaints don't have anything to do with those buses being European.
They don't have anything to do with them being Van Hool either, as has been explained numerous times. Pretty much everything he complains about is customer specified, including things like airco, the low floors, even including the engine being in the middle.

Quote:
These buses are completely low-floor.
So are the Van Hools he's talking about.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Teach View Post
So are the Van Hools he's talking about.
No they aren't. I'll make this argument one and one time only. The floor that the seats are on is not low. It's about 12'' high. The aisles are low, not the floor that the seats are on.

Besides, that picture was a Solaris bus. The other problem is many of these are a matter of opinion. You guys might consider "cramped" to be different than what I consider it to be.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 06:41 PM   #86
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No they aren't.
In your exclusive 'low floor doesn't mean low floor' definition, neither is the Solaris bus he refers to. Every full low floor has the 'pedestals' you seem to despise so much.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teach View Post
In your exclusive 'low floor doesn't mean low floor' definition, neither is the Solaris bus he refers to. Every full low floor has the 'pedestals' you seem to despise so much.
No, the Solaris bus I mentioned has a 100% flat floor without any 'pedestals'.

Last edited by Grunnen; July 16th, 2009 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Now that I think about it another time...
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Old July 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
You should really look at some pictures of Toronto's Viva Van Hool Ag300s and A330s as they are probably the best example of Van Hools in North America.
Viva bus in Toronto (York Region)
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old July 16th, 2009, 09:09 PM   #89
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No, the Solaris bus I mentioned has a 100% flat floor without any 'pedestals'.
I'm sorry, but unless it is a semi low-floor bus (or as it's also called, a 'low-entry bus') that is physically impossible. Is the entire floor at low level (meaning, from front to back), or just the part until the second door? If it's the latter, it's not a true low-floor bus.

I even looked at the Solaris website, just to be sure, and the pictures there clearly confirm: their low-floor buses most certainly do have the pedestals:

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Old July 16th, 2009, 09:37 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teach View Post
I'm sorry, but unless it is a semi low-floor bus (or as it's also called, a 'low-entry bus') that is physically impossible. Is the entire floor at low level (meaning, from front to back), or just the part until the second door? If it's the latter, it's not a true low-floor bus.
Like I said: 100% low floor, from front to back.

Quote:
I even looked at the Solaris website, just to be sure, and the pictures there clearly confirm: their low-floor buses most certainly do have the pedestals:
<image>
<image>
Those images are only examples, other configurations are possible. About the "physically impossible" thing: look a bit more carefully at the first picture you posted:

[IMG]http://i26.************/20773pe.jpg[/IMG]
Look: no pedestals! That solution can, of course, be applied to the other seats above the wheels too.

It has one physical consequence, of course: the space above the wheel can't be used for seats and thus it must be used as luggage storage or something like that.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 09:49 PM   #91
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Look: no pedestals!
That's a joke, right?
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Old July 16th, 2009, 10:06 PM   #92
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Aye, mister smartass!

Seriously, what are we talking about? About the construction upon which seats are mounted, or about old and disabled persons which shouldn't get tackled by a footstep when they try to sit down?
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Old July 16th, 2009, 10:19 PM   #93
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Seriously, what are we talking about? About the construction upon which seats are mounted
Yup. Those are the things mr. BART rider is complaining about. He wants all the seats to be directly on the floor, like what is the case with only two seats in the picture of the Solaris bus. Which, as I said, is physically impossible in a full low floor bus. You claimed the Solaris bus has a 100% flat floor, which based on the pictures it clearly doesn't have.

The buses he's complaining about have a layout pretty similar to what can be seen in those pictures, so if he rode your bus, he'd complain just as loudly about it as he's complaining about the Van Hools now.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 10:41 PM   #94
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Oh, okay,

I thought he meant pedestals like this:
[IMG]http://i26.************/zwnlhv.jpg[/IMG]

But if not, then you are totally right. Every bus with wheels can't have a 100% flat floor.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 10:53 PM   #95
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VIVA has confirmed that they will not be purchasing any more Van-Hools due to the high maintenance costs, and the time required to get parts for the buses.

I like the buses though. They are pretty decent inside.
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Old July 16th, 2009, 11:01 PM   #96
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I thought he meant pedestals like this:
He means both: everything that isn't on the same level as the floor.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 02:32 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
VIVA has confirmed that they will not be purchasing any more Van-Hools due to the high maintenance costs, and the time required to get parts for the buses.

I like the buses though. They are pretty decent inside.
I hope the next artic is the Citaro with a Mercedes logo (these would contribute to the local economy as they would most likely be built by Orion), then that would be stylish.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 02:57 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
I hope the next artic is the Citaro with a Mercedes logo (these would contribute to the local economy as they would most likely be built by Orion), then that would be stylish.
It would be nice, but the buses won't be built by Orion. Even though Orion and Mercedes-Benz are under Daimler, with getting the Citaro, you still run the risk of having the same issue as Van Hool with getting parts.

So far everything points to Orion developing their own artic, which when they build will have more local parts.
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Last edited by APTA-2048; July 17th, 2009 at 03:04 AM.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 03:53 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
I hope the next artic is the Citaro with a Mercedes logo (these would contribute to the local economy as they would most likely be built by Orion), then that would be stylish.
I like the Citaros. They would be a nice addition to Viva. I have a feeling that Viva will choose New Flyer though. New Flyer artics, and 40 footers are pretty well established in North America. I'd have trouble naming a large TA that does not use a NFI bus. NFI "BRT" buses look pretty decent, and the Excelsior model looks really nice. NFI has the key advantage, that they can ship a part to an agency the next day, and cheap.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 08:28 PM   #100
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Are there any North American Mercedes Buses?
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