daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 18th, 2009, 06:19 PM   #121
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

He is an influential lobbyist. he does not derive his salary from the public.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 18th, 2009, 07:24 PM   #122
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

Okay: a few things. AC Transit's site says the Van Hools replace 18 and 19 year old buses. I'm betting it's them wrong on that one.

How'd they manage? Creative fund swaps. Swapping operational funds for capital funds!

Someone misunderstood me. When I say "Low Floor" I mean a bus with no steps to enter and seats on the floor. The wheel wells are covered with metal, poles are put on them for passengers to hold on to and you could theoretically sit on one if you wanted to. That's how they solve it. NABI doesn't try putting seats on them like Van Hool.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 18th, 2009, 07:28 PM   #123
Teach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 362
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
NABI doesn't try putting seats on them like Van Hool.
And here we go again
Teach no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 18th, 2009, 07:34 PM   #124
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

Okay guys. To show what I mean about the wheel wells, take a look at this tour of a 1999-2000 NABI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxahLk3qpkk
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 18th, 2009, 09:03 PM   #125
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

Well that could be possible but you loose seats, which would be more than a bit of an issue for a bus that's only 30 feet. It's your choice to climb onto these seats in the first place.

And that NABI bus looks gross. I still think the best North American company for buses is either between NOVA, a division of Volvo, or NEW FLYER.
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 18th, 2009, 09:04 PM   #126
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

Yes, but we're talking about a 40' bus here. And the loss of seats is not enormous.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 03:16 AM   #127
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Someone misunderstood me. When I say "Low Floor" I mean a bus with no steps to enter and seats on the floor. The wheel wells are covered with metal, poles are put on them for passengers to hold on to and you could theoretically sit on one if you wanted to. That's how they solve it. NABI doesn't try putting seats on them like Van Hool.
I think there is a bias against Van Hool on your part. The VIVA Van Hools only have seats on the rear wheels. And that is no different from newer NABI, and NFI buses that have a partial raised rear section to house the engine. Almost all 60 foot buses in North America have seats on top of wheel wells. Maximize use of space.

Like everyone said already, it's a specification issue, not a manufacturer issue. AC transit wanted seats on the front wheels, Van Hool will supply it. That is what they are paid to do.

Are Van Hools even built for heavy duty bus use, though? To me, they seem more suitable for medium duty routes, or "BRT" mixed traffic routes.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 03:33 AM   #128
APTA-2048
Registered User
 
APTA-2048's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Well that could be possible but you loose seats, which would be more than a bit of an issue for a bus that's only 30 feet. It's your choice to climb onto these seats in the first place.
An example that proves your point can be see with the Orion VI, a North American product. The Orion VI was available in a fully low floor variant. This design offered a limited number of seats, +/- 30, with all seats on the floor. When Orion came up with the idea of adding a raised rear platform to the VI and put some seats on the rear wheel wells, the number of seats went up to just under 40. So like the Van Hools that are being discussed here, this North American bus uses the same idea. The only difference is Van Hool just added more raised areas to facilitate seating on the front wheel wells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Are Van Hools even built for heavy duty bus use, though? To me, they seem more suitable for medium duty routes, or "BRT" mixed traffic routes.
I think they are. These buses are arguably run harder on the Viva system than their local transit counterparts. Longueuil's run regular transit service and from what I hear are doing well.
__________________
Flickr page
APTA-2048 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 03:41 AM   #129
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Are Van Hools even built for heavy duty bus use, though? To me, they seem more suitable for medium duty routes, or "BRT" mixed traffic routes.
They are used for heavy duty use here, both within cities, between cities, outside cities, between towns and so on. For what they're suited, depends on the specifications for the bus.

If they're not properly maintained or so, any bus will break down of course. Not sure whether that's the case here though.

Greetings,
Glodenox
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #130
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Yes, but we're talking about a 40' bus here. And the loss of seats is not enormous.
That's the problem here... don't you see? Why aren't we maximizing space. You don't need an empty area when instead you can put people here. I mean if these buses were for Airport Shuttles then fine leave an empty area above the wheels so you can put luggage but if you want to pack people onto a bus, put seats. Yes they will be higher, but people who want to sit would appreciate them. Those who can't reach the height can choose to sit elsewhere on the bus.
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 07:05 AM   #131
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

It's not a horrible loss. Maybe 4 seats at most.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 08:24 AM   #132
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
It's not a horrible loss. Maybe 4 seats at most.
So you want AC Transit to remove the seats then instead of maximizing seats for four more people?
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2009, 08:46 AM   #133
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

Not at all, I'm saying the loss by not having seats on the front Wheel Wells of NABI Low Floor Buses is minimal.

The problem is that the pedestal free design makes it pretty high to have seats on the Wheel Wells of NABI buses. Some of us would probably hit our head on the ceiling. But I doubt if you could comfortably fit 2 on each of those. More like 1 each. VH manages with a total of four, but the result is being crushed like a sardine.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 02:45 PM   #134
JOVANO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 110
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Okay: let me stand corrected and put this differently. AC Transit it doing a horrible job at selecting appropriate buses for service in the United States. They also violated Buy America laws and frankly, I don't get why they aren't in trouble. They spent about 4 times the money that they need to to get good buses. But how about this:

AC Transit went to Van Hool first and talked to them about what they could do. They then went back to America and put it up for bids online: rigged to look exactly what Van Hool offered. So of course, VH was the only bidder, because no American bus company could do what Van Hool would do.

Another thing that factors into this is free trips to Europe payed for by tax dollars. It's not just all business; the president of the AC Transit board has taken many relaxing vacations in Europe.

Poor America, Poor Americans,

Most of your industries are going bankrupt, vanishing,.. Look at your car industry totally obsolete and unefficient.

Your comments are clearly that of a frustrated guy.
(Maybe jealous because not invited on this "relaxing vacations" to Europe).

I can tell you, Lier (the city where VAN HOOL is located) has beautiful beaches, palm trees, sun and nice temperatures all over the year...)

Just be realistic, BART ( Bart ?)
JOVANO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 02:56 PM   #135
Cosmin
Euro Mod
 
Cosmin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 17,285
Likes (Received): 5961

BART = Bay Area Rapid Transit.

No need to spend too much time discussing a very biased idea, but my 2 cents: Van Hool are great buses and I think it's stupid to say that a certain operator should buy all American or all European buses, especially since they're not really 100% American or 100% European anyway, aren't they?

Buy according to your needs, not according to your borders, ffs! I'd love to see some American buses on this side of the pond.
Cosmin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 04:13 PM   #136
Teach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 362
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Lier (the city where VAN HOOL is located) has beautiful beaches, palm trees, sun and nice temperatures all over the year...)
Teach no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 08:20 PM   #137
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

It would just be nice if the agency actually did something that passengers might like. Plus, this company is poor. So what do they do? The go and buy expensive vehicles that cost 4 times as much as American models.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #138
slider
Registered User
 
slider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 78
Likes (Received): 0

I don't really see the point about arguing the pedestals under some seats in the European buses since there are always some seats right on the floor. In American buses you always have to climb the stairs to the bus even though the seats might be on the floor. So which one is better? Of course the one with no steps at all.

Also about the weelchair... Wouldn't you rather enter the bus from the middle by yourself than with the help of a lift from the front? It is also a lot smoother this way and sometimes the floor is so low that you don't need any ramp at all. That is also the case when you travel with little babies with those carts or trolleys or whatever is the word for those things.

Stop button makes more sense than those weird strips in American buses. They clearly state STOP and are usually red and yellow to be easily spotted. Some buses have individual buttons next to every seat and some buses little less but you can reach atleast one button from every seat without standing first.

And about the design. I haven't seen any American bus that looks better than most European buses and I have traveled a lot in Europe and in the USA using public transport. Some can look quite good though like the ones most commonly used in NYC. Atleast one of the most commonly used. It is different from the European style, and little old fashioned but there is some style there. It looks New York to me. I guess it is the same thing with the Subway cars in New York. Might look ugly elsewhere but are so New York I actually like them=). Makes any sence... maybe, maybe not.
slider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2009, 02:43 PM   #139
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

From my experience riding VIVA's Van Hools, Seniors never had any problems climbing the pedestals. Most wheelchair, and scooter users actually find the rear door boarding considerably easier than NFI, and Orion's front door boarding. There is simply more room to maneuver around using the rear doors.

Another positive about the Van Hool design, is the passenger load is better distributed when the bus is full. Compare that to a NFI, or Orion bus where the passengers have an annoying tendency to crowd the front of the bus, leaving the rear relatively empty. Uneven distribution, and the driver assumes the bus is full, when it is not.

I guess it is based on agency specifications, it is pretty tough to stand in VIVA's Van Hools. The bus needs more pole, and strap to hold on to. The buses do have lower capacity than American buses, and that is a problem, especially during rush hour. Acquiring parts for Van Hools has been a problem for VIVA too. The parts usually come from Belgium, and it can be months before a part arrives. THis is the main reason why VIVA is not buying any more Van Hools in the future. The buses are more expensive to maintain compared to North American Buses.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2009, 08:50 PM   #140
BART Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 87
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
I don't really see the point about arguing the pedestals under some seats in the European buses since there are always some seats right on the floor. In American buses you always have to climb the stairs to the bus even though the seats might be on the floor. So which one is better? Of course the one with no steps at all.

Also about the weelchair... Wouldn't you rather enter the bus from the middle by yourself than with the help of a lift from the front? It is also a lot smoother this way and sometimes the floor is so low that you don't need any ramp at all. That is also the case when you travel with little babies with those carts or trolleys or whatever is the word for those things.

Stop button makes more sense than those weird strips in American buses. They clearly state STOP and are usually red and yellow to be easily spotted. Some buses have individual buttons next to every seat and some buses little less but you can reach atleast one button from every seat without standing first.

And about the design. I haven't seen any American bus that looks better than most European buses and I have traveled a lot in Europe and in the USA using public transport. Some can look quite good though like the ones most commonly used in NYC. Atleast one of the most commonly used. It is different from the European style, and little old fashioned but there is some style there. It looks New York to me. I guess it is the same thing with the Subway cars in New York. Might look ugly elsewhere but are so New York I actually like them=). Makes any sence... maybe, maybe not.
1. Actually, we do have buses that can be accessed with no steps. I'm just telling you what I know. I have seen seniors who have to hoist themselves into the high seats, but the same people get on American buses without problem.

2. Yes, I understand about the buttons, but sometimes, they're not very easy to find where they are sometimes.

3. My main problem is there's no reason for them. They had to be purchased with operating funds. This company is poor: so any reason they have to buy such expensive buses are a bad excuse. They also cost about $10,000 to ship. Why do that when you can have four times the buses for that amount, and NO cost for shipping?

Now, I feel like I'm repeating myself, so I'm done here.
BART Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium