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Old August 15th, 2009, 08:59 PM   #141
Teach
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Actually, we do have buses that can be accessed with no steps.
No, you don't. You do not have buses where all the sets can be accessed without steps. Either the floor is low throughout the bus, meaning some seats are on 'pedestals', or the entire back half of the bus is raised, meaning all the seats there can only be reached after taking a few steps up.

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Why do that when you can have four times the buses for that amount, and NO cost for shipping?
Where on earth did you get the ludicrous idea that a Van Hool costs 4 times as much as a US-built bus???
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Old August 15th, 2009, 09:13 PM   #142
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Actually, it's only 2 steps. But that's better than all of the seats being on pedestals, isn't it?

I read it, by the way.

Now, I'm done here.



Thread closed. I will no longer comment here, I'm tired of this.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #143
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Thread closed. I will no longer comment here, I'm tired of this.
Who made you a moderator? The only reason you're getting so much flak here is because you're the one who started this thread dumping all over the Van Hools, often without good reason and for purely nationalistic purposes, and because you simply keep ignoring every correction to your assumptions that's been made, to then repeat the mantra. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen...

Oh, and you still haven't said where you got the idea the Van Hools are four times as expensive as US built buses.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 01:19 AM   #144
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^Oh, umm..

Maybe I don't like to be flamed by people who can't have constructive conversation. Let the thread die. I've had enough.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 01:27 AM   #145
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Maybe I don't like to be flamed by people who can't have constructive conversation.
Constructive conversation includes listening to the other's points. You simply ignore every point that we've made, and everything we've said.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 03:56 AM   #146
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How so?

Like I said, I'm tired of it. The thread was dead. Let it die again. It will make life easier for all of us.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 05:46 AM   #147
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Hey, no more "I'm done." "Thread locked." If you are done with talking, then shut up. You are not a moderator and have no rights in telling what others need to do.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:56 PM   #148
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If he was a mod, he probably would have banned most of the members in this thread for not agreeing with him. This sort of attitude is not new.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 07:47 PM   #149
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That's a joke, right?

I have no problem with some disagreement. I just prefer that it be polite.

I'm not saying I'm perfect either, because I'm not. I've been wrong too.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 07:55 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
If he was a mod, he probably would have banned most of the members in this thread for not agreeing with him. This sort of attitude is not new.
I am a moderator if you haven't noticed already.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 07:57 PM   #151
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I think he was making a joke about me, deasine.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 08:05 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
I think he was making a joke about me, deasine.
This is what you get for sleeping at 5.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 08:07 PM   #153
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5PM? Yeah that would do it!
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Old August 17th, 2009, 08:28 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
That's a joke, right?

I have no problem with some disagreement. I just prefer that it be polite.

I'm not saying I'm perfect either, because I'm not. I've been wrong too.
Finally... perhaps you can indicate specifically where you've been wrong?

Now, regarding your points about Van Hool, can you answer these questions:

Have you ever found a low-floor bus in which all seats are accessible without steps - Pedestals or platforms? Those on the wheel-arch? Those on the engine compartment in the case of a rear-engined bus? Forget about your definitions (I'm won't start to question whether some are actually made up by yourself), what's the difference between having a pedestal for seats or raising a whole (usually rear) section of the floor in the case of low-entry buses?

Have you for a moment considered that your local bus company ordered these buses because of overall performance?
You claim you can can buy four times the number of American buses with the cost of the Van Hools. Have you any figures from reliable sources?
You suspect foul-play - once again, have you any evidence from credible sources?
You keep banging about 'Buy-American' laws - without disputing whether such laws exist, what is your understanding and opinion on 'protectionism'?

Have you travelled on other Van Hool buses? Have you travelled on other European buses? Based on the answer to the above 2 questions, do you think you have any authority to make any sweeping comments about them?

You say you don't want to argue. I'm curious to know who started it in the first place. You acuse people of not being able to hold a constructive conversation, yet who is it who keeps dodging the constructive points raised by others and regard sensible language as rude? Now, is it me, or is there some kind of double standards going on here?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #155
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Hello. No, I have not found a bus with all seats on the floor. I believe I saw one on Youtube and they are technically possible, but I have not seen nor been on one.

No, I doubt they were considered for overall performance. I'm guessing that it was most likely done based on the fact that they could have free trips to Europe.

I have been on Van Hool highway coaches, but I suppose that's not a fair comparison.

Okay, now perhaps I am wrong about the price figure, as I may have misunderstood something. They are however, expensive.

Foul-play: yes. That is indeed what I suspect. My source: an old friend, who relies on Public Transit, and certainly knows what he's talking about. If he says is, there's at 99.5% chance it's right.

How was I wrong - by making the thread title as it is and not stating that this is my opinion.

My main point is, AC Transit made some desicions which may not have been the best. They complain that they need to cut service and raise fares. Well, they may not have been in this mess if they had not bought the Van Hools. I say this because since they are not American, they must be purchased with their own Operating funds, not federal funds. Plus there was a survey. The results were handed over to a board designed to represent the public. They gave the Van Hools their thumbs down. Instead of listening, AC Transit simply eliminated this board, and continued to purchase the buses in massive quantities.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 10:54 PM   #156
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No, I doubt they were considered for overall performance. I'm guessing that it was most likely done based on the fact that they could have free trips to Europe.
Key word here: 'guessing'. Which immediately seems to quite nicely sum up the entire 'case' you've been trying to make here: it's all guesswork. Oh, and they ordered those buses... so they could get free trips to Europe? You're joking, right?

Quote:
Foul-play: yes. That is indeed what I suspect. My source: an old friend, who relies on Public Transit, and certainly knows what he's talking about. If he says is, there's at 99.5% chance it's right.
'An old friend' doesn't count as a source, sorry. If I had a Euro for every time someone told me that 'a friend who knows' said such and such, and it later turned out to be wrong, I'd be rich. Unless the 'reliable source' is someone in senior management, he probably doesn't know a thing. The thing with sources like the one yours seems to be (the avid fan and bus user, who talks to a lot of people working for the company) is that they are usually, like most employees, the first ones in on all the gossip, and the last ones in on the actual facts.

Quote:
How was I wrong - by making the thread title as it is and not stating that this is my opinion.
No, by simply ignoring everything that's been said here that counters your arguments.

Speaking of which:
Quote:
They complain that they need to cut service and raise fares. Well, they may not have been in this mess if they had not bought the Van Hools. I say this because since they are not American, they must be purchased with their own Operating funds, not federal funds.
... it's already been pointed out to you earlier on the AC found a (LEGAL before you say anything) way around that, where they still get the federal money, but you haven once again, chosen to ignore that because it doesn't fit your agenda.

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Plus there was a survey. The results were handed over to a board designed to represent the public. They gave the Van Hools their thumbs down.
Source?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:41 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
My main point is, AC Transit made some desicions which may not have been the best. They complain that they need to cut service and raise fares. Well, they may not have been in this mess if they had not bought the Van Hools.
Then this thread should have been called "Horrible AC Transit Management!!!!" perhaps?

Anyway, I for one, rode on the Van Hool bi-articulated buses (model number AGG300) in Utrecht, Netherlands this past June. I had absolutely no problem with the bus whatsoever. The stop-request buttons are located within arms reach of EVERY seat (and there are no mangled and drooping cords running along the windows), the pedestals posed no issues, and I sat down and got up while the bus was moving. I particularly liked the padded bars on either side of the bus inside the forward articulation joint for people to lean against if the rest of the bus gets overly crowded. The buses ran very smoothly and managed turns greatly despite the bi-articulation.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:48 PM   #158
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The Orion model VI had all the seats on the floor:
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/otpr...5orionint2.jpg

However, the configuration wasn't found to be too popular, and a version with rear platform became more desirable:
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/otpd...orionviint.jpg
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:52 PM   #159
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Teach,

1. Nope. Not joking.
2. Actually: yes he does. And in fact, he's not that old of a friend. He does know what he's talking about.
3. I can't seem to remember it at the moment, but I did read it online. I will now quote reliable sources to back up some of my positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by East Bay Express
The agency blames its budget problems now on a decline in state revenues, lower sales tax receipts, and rising employee salary and benefit costs. The agency, however, continues to defend its extensive and often unnecessary purchases of expensive Belgian buses...The agency's cuts have been particularly tough on the East Bay's lowest-income residents. Meanwhile, since 2002, the agency has bought hundreds of the Van Hool buses, using money from its general fund, without soliciting bids from other bus manufacturers.
In another Article from East Bay Express
Quote:
In fact, as the general manager was on his way to sign the Van Hool deal in January 2002, he stopped off in Paris and checked into the Normandy Hotel in the heart of the French capital. The Normandy sits in one of the most exclusive sections of the city, not far from the Eiffel Tower, one block from the River Seine, and across the street from the Louvre.

Travel records show that Fernandez’ two-day Parisian getaway, including a food allowance and round-trip train fare to Brussels to sign the bus deal, cost taxpayers $735. Three months later, he did it again, spending another weekend at the Normandy at a total cost of $904.
. Notice the Manager of AC Transit stops off in Paris before signing the Van Hool contract. All payed for by tax money. Now do you believe me?

Take a look at what Joyce Roy says on her site:

Quote:
The original “bid” in 2001 was tailored for Van Hool, and indeed they were the only respondent. But since that “bid” for 3-door 40-ft buses and 4-door 60-ft buses, they have purchased 2-door 30-ft buses and 3-door 60-ft buses without any pretense of a competitive procurement process. In Jan. 2007, a new 5-year contract was signed with Van Hool without a bid or an RFP. Under that contract they will be importing 2-door 40-ft buses.
No third party has tested these buses. American-built buses have to pass rigorous tests at a FTA facility in Altoona overseen by Penn State U. because they are expected to give at least 12 years of service...In the AC Transit survey that was chaotically administered in one day, the comments by the drivers, which were mostly negative, were omitted. A survey is not needed for anyone who rides the buses frequently and talks to drivers. One out of 20 might say they like them but they will then add quickly, “but passengers hate them.”
. Now, this is a board member we're talking about, so I would say she could easily be considered a "reliable source".

So, there you have it. Some of my sources for this thread

Last edited by BART Rider; August 18th, 2009 at 12:08 AM.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:54 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APTA-2048 View Post
The Orion model VI had all the seats on the floor:
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/otpr...5orionint2.jpg

However, the configuration wasn't found to be too popular, and a version with rear platform became more desirable:
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/otpd...orionviint.jpg
See, you don't need pedestals after-all. I would welcome that bus! Looks just fine to me.

Even the second one has what, like a 1-foot step? Tell me: which is better...

Option 1: A senior enters a bus, pays his fare, and hoists himself into a foot high seat. All the seats on this bus are a foot higher than the floor.

Option 2: A senior enters a bus, pays his fare, and comfortably sits down onto a seat ON THE FLOOR. All seats on this bus are on the floor. The last section of the bus is raised about one foot.

I would say that option two is better. Anyone who wants to can go to the back. If you can't go to the back because of it's height, you comfortably sit up front.

Last edited by BART Rider; August 18th, 2009 at 12:13 AM.
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