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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:09 AM   #161
JustinB
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The Orion 6 was a maintenance nightmare from what I heard, and I remember the interior being quite cramped.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #162
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Frankly, compared to the VH buses I generally ride on: it's rather spacious in my opinion.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:02 AM   #163
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Quote:
East Bay Express
LOL! The East Bay Express! The rag that, together with Joyce Roy, started the whole Van Hool crusade. I'd dissect the article for you, but I won't since someone else already beat me to it, complete with actual sources, links, the works: http://www.abetteroakland.com/the-we...ell/2008-01-23

Oh wait, now you go on to quote... Joyce Roy. Roy who, contrary to your claim, is NOT a board member at AC Transit, but is someone who tried to run for a seat on the board last year, mainly on a 'boo, Van Hool sucks' platform, and failed. She's also the irritating woman in the video you posted earlier on in the thread, talking about 'American true low-floor buses' compared to those 'horrible, horrible and evil Van Hool buses', if I'm not mistaken. I seem to remember reading she at one point staged a rally against the Van Hools, only to find hardly anybody turned up. Bummer. Were you there?

So forgive me if I don't take the words of the very person who started the Van Hool crusade as a 'serious source'.

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Frankly, compared to the VH buses I generally ride on: it's rather spacious in my opinion.
How would you know? You've never been on one!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:10 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Frankly, compared to the VH buses I generally ride on: it's rather spacious in my opinion.
They were not spacious. York Region Transit here in the Toronto area runs both models, and I find the Van Hools to have more room than the Orion 6.

The driver did like driving the buses though.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:18 AM   #165
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At least people here can still laugh. Really? I could have sworn she was a board member. I could be wrong here, but I believe she failed simply because she's not a big figure. "Joyce Roy? Who's that?". You know. She made some good points in that video. Like the fact that the seats are not accessible, and they can get very cramped because their barley any leg room. Those isles on the Orion 6 look very wide and spacious to me. But, since I'm not in Toronto (which is bound to be more crowded) I'd bet my standards are a little lower

Oh, and BTW, she was running for President of the board.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:59 PM   #166
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Doesn't matter what she ran for, she lost. You've let yourself be fooled by a woman dramatising the Van Hool purchases to get a seat on the board (motto: if you want a seat on the board, tear down anything the current leadership does) and a newspaper who happily went along for the ride, as sensationalism = sales.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:23 PM   #167
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I think you are exaggerating the situation completely. Could I have your assessment on Roy's arguments?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:28 PM   #168
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I think you are exaggerating the situation completely.
That's funny, because that's exactly what I believe Roy is/was doing, and in her case for personal gain. Incidently, has she made any remarks on the subject AFTER her failure to get elected?

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Could I have your assessment on Roy's arguments?
What is there to assess? She makes a number of claims, and not a single one is backed up by a source. It's hard, if not impossible, to assess a claim if you don't know where the numbers came from, and if they're true. Regarding testing and durability: do you honestly believe a brand new bus would just be allowed to come on the streets untested and be allowed to transport passengers? I don't know about the U.S., but I'd be extremely surprised if they were. So yes, I have no doubt that the Van Hools were tested quite thoroughly, if not in the U.S., then at least at an equivalent in Europe. The claim that they are 'untested' is also hogwash: buses like these have been operating in Europe for many years. Durability? The Flemish transit company De Lijn here on average replaces its buses, many of them Van Hools, at an age of about 15 years. Many are then sold on to Eastern Europe or developing countries to serve for quite a few more years.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:48 PM   #169
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Or maybe she just realized that instead of dumping money to replace buses that are between 6 and 12 years old that are perfectly good, they should just get buses from Gillig in Hayward?

I mean, come on...don't you think it's the least bit stupid to replace buses that could still be good for potentially another 6 years? They're always saying they're poor. Well if this agency is poor, why are they buying expensive buses from Europe without a competitive bidding process when they still have buses that already do the job. Was there anything wrong with the buses we had? No. They still do what they need to do. Do you need expensive buses from Europe to run a good transit system? No. You can simply go to Gillig or NABI and get buses that are MUCH less expensive and ship for little to no charge.

Like somebody else said earlier in the thread, it's not about the most fancy bus you can possibly buy. People don't care what it looks like, they just want a comfortable, accessible, reliable bus that gets them where to go. The Van Hools are not very comfortable in my opinion, and they're not the most accessible either. That's 2 strikes against them right there. They don't stand a chance!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:13 PM   #170
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As I already pointed out,NABI is also made in Europe. Do not misunderstand me,they are not produced for the european market,they are produced for the US market.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:18 PM   #171
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NABI has a manufacturing plant in Texas if I recall. They're called NABI for a reason! North American Bus Industries. Why would they be called that if they were in Europe?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:24 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
NABI has a manufacturing plant in Texas if I recall. They're called NABI for a reason! North American Bus Industries. Why would they be called that if they were in Europe?
Because hungarian Ikarus founded it 20 years ago,and is still owned by hungarians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...Bus_Industries

"NABI's method of production, dating back to the Ikarus USA/American Ikarus period, is split between plants in Hungary and Anniston in what is an outgrowth of "Buy America" requirements, which mandate buses purchased with government money have at least 60% of the bus built in the US. The shells for the buses are built in Hungary and are then shipped to Anniston for the installation of all other components."
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #173
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Oh right! Forgot about the hungarian element. Even so, they are North American vehicles, and they do a perfectly good job. There's no problem with them at all. Also, they're MUCH less expensive.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #174
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I mean, come on...don't you think it's the least bit stupid to replace buses that could still be good for potentially another 6 years?
That depends. Did the buses perform up to standard? Were they sufficiently reliable? What about maintenance costs? When a company decides to replace buses before their useful lives are over, I tend to believe there's a reason for that. It could be that the buses were much more expensive to operate, or that they underperformed, or simply that, precisely due to their youngerage, they could get an attractive price for them on the second-hand market. There's also the issue of fleet stadardisation: standardising the fleet can save you a lot of money.

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You can simply go to Gillig or NABI and get buses that are MUCH less expensive
Source?

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The Van Hools are not very comfortable in my opinion, and they're not the most accessible either. That's 2 strikes against them right there.
No it isn't. Both are YOUR opinion.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:58 PM   #175
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Teach, it's a known fact the Van Hools are expensive. I know you think she's some kind of idiot, but Joyce Roy had some facts right. She did her homework.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Teach, it's a known fact the Van Hools are expensive. I know you think she's some kind of idiot, but Joyce Roy had some facts right. She did her homework.
Once more - where's the source. Until you give us concrete figures from reliable sources, I'm afraid you, and for that matter Joyce Roy, have NO credibility whatsoever. The fact that you and Joyce Roy use arguments on the lines of 'American buses are better simply because they are American' virtually gives you ZERO credibility.

It is YOU who made those cost claims in the first place, so it is up to YOU to prove to point with evidence. Come on it's not hard - find a press release of some sort from a factual newspaper - there usually is one along the lines of 'we/they invested $x million on y buses'. Then find a similar press release involving NABI buses. Then make your comparisons.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 10:10 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BART Rider View Post
Oh right! Forgot about the hungarian element. Even so, they are North American vehicles, and they do a perfectly good job. There's no problem with them at all. Also, they're MUCH less expensive.
It seems you dont get it. The only reason why that factory exists in the US is because is your unethical "buy america" law,else it would be produced 100% here. It would be even cheaper then,because we wouldnt need to train engineers there.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #178
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The facts: A 40-Foot Van Hool costs $400,000. An American Low Floor bus costs $328,000. That's Diesel buses.

An American Diesel-Electric Hybrid bus costs $155,000.

Now, what can you get the best deal for? The $155,000 buses. They can carry more people with more buses, right? And obviously, these domestic buses are easier for seniors to use because they don't have to step up a foot or two to sit down. Transit agencies don't need the most fancy thing on the planet. All they need is to get the most buses for the least money. Obviously, Van Hool isn't the option for that, since their buses are several hundred thousand more.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #179
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Okay: here's another argument: right on ACT's own website. The NABI High Floor buses can carry a total of 70 passengers. The Van Hools can carry only 32. The Green buses (4,000 and 7200 series) can carry up to 57 passengers. So, they obviously beat the Van Hools too.

The 60' High Floor articulated buses will carry 103 passengers. I figured it out once and the Van Hool articulated buses would carry about 70 people.

So, what arguments can be put up against that? These buses that were already owned by AC Transit can carry more people then their Belgian counterparts.

Last edited by BART Rider; August 18th, 2009 at 11:14 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:36 PM   #180
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Quote:
The facts: A 40-Foot Van Hool costs $400,000. An American Low Floor bus costs $328,000. That's Diesel buses.
Source? No wait, I forget, you only have one source. Joyce Roy again right? Now, tell me, are those prices with or without taxes? Are the prices for the American bus for a full low-floor bus, or a low-entry bus? If a low-entry, the comparison already doesn't count anymore, as full low-floors are more expensive. What is the projected fuel consumption for the American one, and for the Van Hool? What about maintenance? Because all of those have to be factored in for any purchase, calculated over the lifetime of the bus.

Quote:
An American Diesel-Electric Hybrid bus costs $155,000.
You're not seriously trying to tell me that a hybrid bus (a more advanced technology than a diesel) only costs HALF of a diesel bus, are you?

Quote:
Okay: here's another argument: right on ACT's own website. The NABI High Floor buses can carry a total of 70 passengers. The Van Hools can carry only 32. The Green buses (4,000 and 7200 series) can carry up to 57 passengers. So, they obviously beat the Van Hools too.

The 60' High Floor articulated buses will carry 103 passengers. I figured it out once and the Van Hool articulated buses would carry about 70 people.

So, what arguments can be put up against that? These buses that were already owned by AC Transit can carry more people then their Belgian counterparts.
Once again: wrong comparison. Full low-floors have less SEATS, but that doesn't mean they carry less PEOPLE. They carry more, because they have signifacantly more standing room. On busy routes, especially in urban areas, total capacity (i.e. seats + standees) is far more important than simply the number of seats.

Is it just me, or are your attempts in this little crusade of yours getting more frantic and desperate by the hour?
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