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View Poll Results: What would you rate it from what you know?
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Old September 29th, 2009, 10:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The Swiss people don't agree with you, why else would they use the train as much as they do, more then any other nation in the world?
Lack of road capacity and parking spaces.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 11:51 AM   #22
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UK , Japan and Switzerland are actually 3 of the WORST networks out there ... and that is a direct consequence of their excelence HIGH standars.

Any tiny fault gets so much overrated that it matters much more than bigger faults in other networks.

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Old September 30th, 2009, 12:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Lack of road capacity and parking spaces.
There is plenty of both over there actually.


100% electrification

rack-rail , funicular , urban transit , metro+troeelycar dense networks + other stuff


As an example:

Luserne has some 50.000 people living there (I think it's more) and its main station has like ... 15/16 tracks ??? huge quantity of trains (from local comuters to intercity) per hour ... a tiny town in the middle of nowhere like that in the UK would really be served with such high quality services ???


Does anone still believe in santa and in what politicians say ???

Just look at Staffordshire(?) at Stoke-on-Trent with it's more than 450.000 and compare ...
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Old September 30th, 2009, 12:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Luserne has some 50.000 people living there (I think it's more) and its main station has like ... 15/16 tracks ??? huge quantity of trains (from local comuters to intercity) per hour ... a tiny town in the middle of nowhere like that in the UK would really be served with such high quality services ???
Doncaster is of similar size and there are more trains departing from its station.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Just look at Staffordshire(?) at Stoke-on-Trent with it's more than 450.000 and compare ...
Stoke has just 240'000 people but has also excellent intercity connections. 2 Intercities per hour to London alone that bridge the 260 km in 90 min.
Trains from Lucerne to Genève take almost 3 hours for the same distance.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
(Non-alpine) Switzerland is a densely populated and extremely rich country. These circumstances are favourable for rail traffic. Still, the southeast of England is nothing short of the Swiss rail network. Neither in density nor frequency.

The alpine parts of it are definitely not favourable for rail traffic though.
And if only one part of England is comparable to the whole of Switzerland - doesn't that say a lot about the quality of their rail network?
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Old September 30th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
The alpine parts of it are definitely not favourable for rail traffic though.
And if only one part of England is comparable to the whole of Switzerland - doesn't that say a lot about the quality of their rail network?
No, it doesn't say that. You haven't read carefully enough. I just compared the southeast of England to the non-alpine part of Switzerland because I know just this part. I didn't say anything about the rest of the England or the UK.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 05:56 PM   #27
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Then tell us which rail network in Europe is better then the one in Switzerland.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 06:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Swiss railways are slow and awfully expensive. [...] Which allows them to offer reasonable priced rail fares. Something Swiss railways fail to do.
No, they aren't:

From http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/reisemarkt/...iorkarte.htm?=

With the Junior Card, your family outing costs even less because for a mere CHF 20.–, your child (6 to 16) can travel through Switzerland for free a whole year long. Only condition: It is accompanied by a parent holding a valid ticket*. (20 CHF = 13 EUR)

From http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/reisemarkt/...tzkarten.htm?=

You can buy a 1-month travelpass to supplement your Half-Fare travelcard. This turns your Half-Fare travelcard into a GA travelcard for an entire month. 1-month travelpass
for Half-Fare travelcard holders CHF 350.– second class
(220 EUR)

If you have a Half-Fare travelcard, you can buy 1-day travelpasses at particularly attractive prices. These give you unlimited travel for a day, just like a GA travelcard. (between 27 and 42 EUR depending of the type, second class, the 27 EUR card is sold only by local municipalities and is not always available)

Swiss trains are slow, but as said this allows optimal conncetions. And often there is not enough capacity to add faster trains between big cities.
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; September 30th, 2009 at 06:40 PM.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 11:22 PM   #29
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I love the Swiss railways. Leave them alone!
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Old October 1st, 2009, 12:45 AM   #30
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Cant you buy unlimited travel on all bus and trains in switzerland for like £4000 a year?
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Old October 1st, 2009, 01:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Then tell us which rail network in Europe is better then the one in Switzerland.
The French rail network is at least two steps ahead of the Swiss. Their integrated high speed network is absolutely top draw. The French have sussed it. Connect the cities with trains that beat air traffic, carry large bulks of people within the big metro areas and leave the flat, nearly unpopulated areas to other means of transport that are more suitable to the individual demand there.

And even the English rail network despite its flaws is still better. They have a proper high speed network for decades with frequent services and acceptable travel times. The substance that Victorian England left its successors in network density and architectural brilliance is still unmatched. The rolling stock is pretty new. And their train accesses match the platform heights.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 01:42 AM   #32
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You don't need high speed rail in Switzerland. It gives you more time to view the outstanding landscapes.
I used swiss railways once, on my way from Hamburg to Milan (I was not fit for flying and had too much luggage).

I arrived in Basel with the night train from Hanover on time and had 6 minutes to get the connecting train (IC). In Arth-Goldau (near Lucerne lake) I had to change to the EC Zurich-Milan. It was just getting out of the train, crossing the platform and waiting two minutes for the connecting train. Very convenient.

For Switzerland it is more imporrtant to have synchronised timetables than building HSR-rail. Building and maintaining the latter in a mountaneous country would cost too much.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 02:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No, they aren't:

You can buy a 1-month travelpass to supplement your Half-Fare travelcard. This turns your Half-Fare travelcard into a GA travelcard for an entire month. 1-month travelpass
for Half-Fare travelcard holders CHF 350.– second class
(220 EUR)
That's effectively 449Fr with 99Fr for the half-fare card included.
I get 1-month travelcard for Berlin-Brandenburg for €176,30 without a half-fare card. And Berlin-Brandenburg is almost as big as Switzerland.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 03:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Doncaster is of similar size and there are more trains departing from its station.


Stoke has just 240'000 people but has also excellent intercity connections. 2 Intercities per hour to London alone that bridge the 260 km in 90 min.
Trains from Lucerne to Genève take almost 3 hours for the same distance.
Theres now way you can compare the FLAT straights of the southern sections of both WCML/ECML to the windy alpine crossnation Luzern-Geneva.

But then again ... bein Luzern a 50km deviation from the main city (Zurich) ... how many tph do you have in the UK linking suck exotic locations as (random examples):

Doncaster-Ipswich ???
Doncaster-Gloucester ???


Or any other random middle cities ??? and remenber that the entire switzerland has about 1/3rd of Londinium's population.


Same reasoning could be made when comparing the "oh so great" Shinkansen of Japan with the London-Aberdeen Flying Scotsman services ... or any other random good.her-bad.there anywhere else.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 04:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Theres now way you can compare the FLAT straights of the southern sections of both WCML/ECML to the windy alpine crossnation Luzern-Geneva.

But then again ... bein Luzern a 50km deviation from the main city (Zurich) ... how many tph do you have in the UK linking suck exotic locations as (random examples):

Doncaster-Ipswich ???
Doncaster-Gloucester ???


Or any other random middle cities ??? and remenber that the entire switzerland has about 1/3rd of Londinium's population.


Same reasoning could be made when comparing the "oh so great" Shinkansen of Japan with the London-Aberdeen Flying Scotsman services ... or any other random good.her-bad.there anywhere else.
Doncaster-Ipswich ??? every 30mins peak times. every 60mins off peak. (involves a train change tho in London)

Doncaster-Gloucester ??? every 30mins peak times. every 60mins off peak. (involves a train change tho in Birmingham)

Thats pretty good for such a random route...

Transpennine Express runs trains every 15mins on a lot of routes (yes, even the hilly, tight curve routes)
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Old October 1st, 2009, 07:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
Cant you buy unlimited travel on all bus and trains in switzerland for like £4000 a year?
Adults about 2000 € (1866 UK £), 16-25/more than 65 years 1500 €, 6-16 years 1000 € (children up to 16 tavel for free only with parents). There are discounts for husband/wife, sons, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
That's effectively 449Fr with 99Fr for the half-fare card included.
I get 1-month travelcard for Berlin-Brandenburg for €176,30 without a half-fare card. And Berlin-Brandenburg is almost as big as Switzerland.
Nearly all people that use the train more than 3 times per year for "long" distances have an half fare card. 350 CHF = 230 EUR, something more than 176, this is true.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 11:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The French rail network is at least two steps ahead of the Swiss. Their integrated high speed network is absolutely top draw. The French have sussed it. Connect the cities with trains that beat air traffic, carry large bulks of people within the big metro areas and leave the flat, nearly unpopulated areas to other means of transport that are more suitable to the individual demand there.
Your last point might be a good point for France, but the situation in the Swiss mountains is completely different therefor you can't say that it's a bad point for Switzerland. First, the mountain railways are highly touristic and therefor are an economic asset for Switzerland. Secondly, the environment, the railways don't pollute the fresh Alpine air, cars do. And thirdly, some of the valleys wouldn't be reachable in the winter if it wasn't for the railways. The mountain passes are usually closed because of the snow, mountain resorts like St. Moritz would be cut of from the rest of the country if wasn't for the trains. And that wouldn't be to good for a region that is known for it winter sports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
And even the English rail network despite its flaws is still better. They have a proper high speed network for decades with frequent services and acceptable travel times. The substance that Victorian England left its successors in network density and architectural brilliance is still unmatched. The rolling stock is pretty new. And their train accesses match the platform heights.
It's only fast on the main North South routes that all go to London. If you're not on of these mainlines the trains aren't that fast. And to be honest, to make speed an excellent point instead of just a good point it needs a real HSR network with speeds over 300 km/h from London to the North.

The Victorian heritage is actually something that works against the British network right now. Since it's a real hindrance to increase the capacity to cope with the growing passenger numbers especially around London.

As for platform heights, that's indeed a good point of the British network but Switzerland is catching up, all new trains have low floor access and on many stations the platforms are raised.

You still don't convince me that these are better, because I still see more excellent points in the Swiss network
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 12:10 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
It's only fast on the main North South routes that all go to London. If you're not on of these mainlines the trains aren't that fast. And to be honest, to make speed an excellent point instead of just a good point it needs a real HSR network with speeds over 300 km/h from London to the North.
This is being worked on, but I don't think much effort is going as its really not that needed. The main thing that is needed is to just increase the length of trains. The average speed is 97mph on a lot of the 125mph routes which is very good. I think 140mph is more of a speed they should aim for as you wouldn't need to 'waste' money on whole new tracks. Its really the signals that need upgrading. The trains can already reach the speeds fine, like the 390s, 225s and 395s...

They main thing that impresses me about our rail network is the high quality diesel rail. In most countries tracks are only diesel as they cba upgrading them so are left to rot at low speeds on 90mph and below. Whilst the ones in Britain are 90mph-125mph and very frequent in a lot of places! (yes I know some older trains only run at 75mph)

Where else do you get high speed diesel trains like this...

The HST is the mother of all high speed diesel dating back to 1975 and still looks great!
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 07:22 AM   #39
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We'll since the Swiss network is completely electrified, you don't see to many diesel trains in Switzerland. Only some freight locomotives are not electric, but that is just to prevent changing locomotives at some industrial lines that can't have overhead wires.

That brings me to another excellent point of the Swiss rail network, it's for the largest part run on hydroelectricity. Making it one of, if not the cleanest railway networks in the world, it doesn't hurt the clean alpine air.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:18 AM   #40
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The fast diesel train is clearly not an argument here. It's isntead the result of choosing not to electrify the mainlines. Anybody could have such trains. I'm wondering if Denmark doesn't have fast diesel train since they also have decided not to take on the electrification process. To electrify a track is costly but electric trains are much more efficient than diesel run trains and in the long run it makes more sense to have overhead on heavy used mainlines than not.

Anyway, the english railroad system is facing or going to face capacity problem in the long run and HST might be the only option here. It would be good if it was build at the wider continental gauge, the english gauge being a bit tight. The good thing is, England is quite densely populated so railroad is allways a sensitive investment.

Where as to know if it's Europe's or World's best railroad system... this is conversation that will never end so I will try not to participate.
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