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Old December 5th, 2017, 03:47 PM   #261
g.spinoza
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Yes but why remove them? They are not dangerous. I understand they are not going to replace them if they're damaged, or install new ones, but removing them is an unnecessary waste of money.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 04:11 PM   #262
eeee.
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To remove signs which aren't part of the road traffic regulations anymore sounds reasonable for me. There are probably only few of them so following the regulations outweigh the insignificant costs.


Btw, these signs were also abrogated last year:
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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:00 PM   #263
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Most of them seem fairly useful to me, but I have no clue what the lower right means, end of....what??
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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:19 PM   #264
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Parking disc?

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Old December 5th, 2017, 10:36 PM   #265
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which countries (beside Italy) use that parking disc?
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Old December 5th, 2017, 11:17 PM   #266
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Evidently it's quite widespread in Europe. It's frequently used in the Netherlands. France started it in the 1950s and Germany adopted it during the 1960s.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 12:02 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's interesting that the Greek motorway signage uses many elements from the German signage. But they use the prefix 'A' in the number shield. Germany doesn't do that (and evidently, the old Greek system didn't either).
The prefix A that is used on highway number shields comes from the Greek word for "freeway" or "motorway" which in Greek is Αυτοκινητόδρομος. Thus..we have the A-1, the A-8 etc. As for the old system, most 'highways' were usually referred to as National Roads.

What I find most interesting is that I don't think I have heard one person make reference to a road by its highway number as it would appear on signs. They make reference to the name of the road. And this is more often than not a directional name/control city name that the highway/freeway/national road is given. Thus, as in the above sign, someone would say to take the Athens-Patras highway rather than the A8. The same holds true for the other city on the sign...namely the Tripoli-Korinth Hwy. and not the A7.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 01:38 AM   #268
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Too big number of unnecessary road signs makes the drivers ignore them. Because most of them convey little or no meaning for the drivers, so then they don't care about those which really warn against dangers.

But... why these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeee. View Post
Quote:
The first is important because it indicates that you approach an especially dangerous place - a level crossing (where you have to at least slow down very much, or even stop). The second one - without this sign, you would have to give way to all the drivers from the street on the right... How can you live without this sign?

In Poland, there is really much redundancy in the road signage, like:



I already know I am approaching a roundabout from the road shape on the signpost. I don't need the warning sign because it's obvious for me that there is a roundabout ahead...

By the way:



The information about the height limit could also be incorporated into the signpost.

Or... you often see such a combination at intersections:




Why do you need the upper sign when the lower one also conveys its meaning (and extends it)?
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Old December 6th, 2017, 09:34 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Too big number of unnecessary road signs makes the drivers ignore them. Because most of them convey little or no meaning for the drivers, so then they don't care about those which really warn against dangers.

But... why these:





The first is important because it indicates that you approach an especially dangerous place - a level crossing (where you have to at least slow down very much, or even stop). The second one - without this sign, you would have to give way to all the drivers from the street on the right... How can you live without this sign?

In Poland, there is really much redundancy in the road signage, like:



I already know I am approaching a roundabout from the road shape on the signpost. I don't need the warning sign because it's obvious for me that there is a roundabout ahead...

By the way:



The information about the height limit could also be incorporated into the signpost.

Or... you often see such a combination at intersections:




Why do you need the upper sign when the lower one also conveys its meaning (and extends it)?
The same goes for the turning-left/right-prohibited sign, which can be sufficiently replaced with the allowed-directions-sign.

But as for the last one you mentioned. The Vienna convention on road signs and signals explains it very well.

Usually, you put a priority traffic sign at the line of the intersection. Indeed, very thoughtful. But Vienna convention allows you to post the main-road sign even after the intersection which means something like a zone: you have the right at all forthcoming intersections until the no-priority-sign is posted.

According to national law, this was possible in Czechoslovakia during socialism when the traffic was relaxed. It was gradually removed both from field and from the pertinent law. Now it is not possible and the priority signs are posted only at the line of the intersection.

The no-priority-sign is now used as a warning sign (despite the shape) that road that was previously main will not be main anymore.

But indeed we have some leftovers from the previous arrangement, still meeting the Vienna convention standards. See here:
https://goo.gl/maps/Cqbcbx1fiks

AFAIK this is quite common in Austria for example.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #270
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And you have... a forest of billboards:



A common problem in Poland too. Especially on entrances to cities, but also on entrances to the country.

You enter Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany - there is just the European border sign, the sign with allowed speeds, city name and that's all. You enter Poland - you are flooded with advertisements.

You enter Poland in Barwinek and (from StreetView, 2012)...

Empty advertisement, you can have your one here!



Buy floor tiles in Castorama in Rzeszów! It doesn't matter it's still 80 km to there!



Exchange your money here! We are open 24/7!



Buy second-hand imported clothes in Poland!
(are they cheaper here than in Slovakia?)



Buy aerated concrete bricks!



Buy fronts for kitchen cupboards!



Buy a pressure washer (in Krosno, so only 25 km ahead)!



Buy a shower cabin!



Tiles again (and again an advertisement directed to Slovaks):



Furniture!



10 different billboards just behind the border crossing. Isn't it too much?
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #271
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New signs about toll informations on slovenian borders, after 1.4.2018, when new toll sistem will be introduced.

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Old December 7th, 2017, 07:51 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeee. View Post
Switzerland removes all "Crosswind" signs:
It makes sense to me. A temporary hazard like strong wind should be signed with a VMS, not a permanent sign.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 8th, 2017, 01:57 PM   #273
eeee.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
But... why these:

The first is important because it indicates that you approach an especially dangerous place - a level crossing (where you have to at least slow down very much, or even stop). The second one - without this sign, you would have to give way to all the drivers from the street on the right... How can you live without this sign?
The first one:
I think it's enough to show once that you're approaching a railway crossing. Usually you see the crossing soon enough. If there is an unclear situation or the crossing is behind a turn then there's the option to add another "danger" warning sign.

The second one:
I see this sign usually abroad on highways (to indicate highway access roads). Completely useless information. For all other roads you can use...
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Old December 8th, 2017, 02:58 PM   #274
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This signs you can see on motorways in Slovenia.

It means that in cases of congestion you have to do this:
Vehicles in the far left traffic lane must arrange them- selves towards the far left side, even beyond the lane marker. Vehicles that are stopping or find themselves in other traffic lanes must arrange themselves as much to the right as possible, even into the emergency lane.

Please obay that!


(Reši življenje = SAVE A LIFE)
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Old December 8th, 2017, 07:51 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeee. View Post
The second one:
I see this sign usually abroad on highways (to indicate highway access roads). Completely useless information. For all other roads you can use...
Yes. But it generally means an intersection with a one-way street that you can't enter. There are, rare though, cases, in which it is useful.

On motorways it's actually unnecessary, since the entrances anyway continue as separate lanes of the motorway (which end after some hundreds metres), those are not typical intersections.
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Old December 8th, 2017, 11:05 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Yes. But it generally means an intersection with a one-way street that you can't enter.
WHAT???

It is an advanced warning for an approaching intersection. There is nothing in the specification to indicate a one-way road.

The usage varies by country. In Finland, it is commonly used to give a warning about a risky intersection, like those ones where slow-moving trucks enter the main road, or those where the visibility is limited. In rural areas, it implies a prohibition to overtake at the intersection to prevent a collision with left-turning vehicles.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@61.30663...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.27402...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.45471...7i13312!8i6656
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Old December 9th, 2017, 12:58 AM   #277
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But you mean which one?

This:


(or with the side road on the left, I don't think we have a version with them on both sides in Poland)

indicates a one-way road you cannot enter.

This:


(or with a side road only on right or on left)

indicates a dangerous intersection, usually outside of the built-up area (in built-up areas, the diamond sign is usually used instead of it).

This is the situation in Poland. Maybe the meaning of the signs is different in Finland.

I checked the Vienna Convention and... indeed, there is nothing about the one-wayness of the side road.

It only says:

Quote:
(b) Symbol A, 19a
may be replaced by symbols which show the nature of the
intersection more clearly, such as A, 19b and A, 19c.
Where:





So this is a Poland-specific thing. In Poland, the "A, 19c" version "more clearly" indicates the nature of the intersection, indicating that you can't turn into the side road

Overtaking on intersection is in Poland generally forbidden - I didn't know it's different elsewhere in Europe, in countries applying the Vienna Convention.

So... I checked the Vienna Convention and...

Quote:
8. Without prejudice to the provisions of paragraph 2 of this Article and to
other restrictions which Contracting Parties or subdivisions thereof may lay down
concerning overtaking at intersections and at level-crossings, no driver of a
vehicle shall overtake a vehicle other than a two-wheeled cycle, a two-wheeled
moped or a two-wheeled motor cycle without side-car:
(a) Immediately before or on an intersection other than a roundabout,
except:
(i) In the case provided for in paragraph 1 (b) of this Article;
(ii) Where the road on which overtaking takes place has priority at
the intersection;
(iii) Where traffic is directed at the intersection by an authorized
official or by traffic light signals;
So the Vienna Convention says you can overtake at an intersection if your road has priority. But the countries may restrict that and Poland forbids overtaking on all the intersections except those with the traffic directed by traffic lights or a policeman.

Overtaking at an intersection is dangerous because someone from the side road on your left, turning right, may not look right, but only left (normally there shouldn't be cars from his right), which may end up with a very bad head-on collision. When I was taking the driving course, the textbook pointed out that it's a good idea to look right too when you are turning right, because there may be someone overtaking someone there, even though it's not legal.

The "A, 19c" sign from the convention is called A-6d or A-6e (side road on the right or on the left) in the Polish highway code:


(A-6d)

and this is its meaning:



Translating:

Quote:
4. The signs:
1) A-6d "entrance of a one-way road on the right",
2) A-6e "entrance of a one-way road on the left"
warn against an intersection with a one-way subordinate road, the entrance of which is on the side pointed out on the sign.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 02:58 AM   #278
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So basically, the Vienna Convention's A19C pictogram is used differently in Poland. According to Kpc21, the Polish A-6 sign essentially conveys the meaning of traffic merging from left/right ahead. It is, therefore, of similar meaning with:

the British diagram 508.1:


and the US MTUCD diagram W4-1:
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Old December 9th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #279
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By the way, even though almost all the European (and Vienna Convention) countries use equilateral triangles with red or yellow background and red outline as the background of the warning signs (in case of the give way sign, the triangle is upside down), the Vienna Convention allows also the usage of diamonds with yellow background and black outline like in the US. And this is the case in Ireland.

The Convention allows also for the mandatory signs to have white background, red outline and black symbols, like it is, for example, in Brasil. And this is more weird, because they would conflict with the prohibitory signs, which use the same scheme. The only lucky thing is that on most prohibitory sign which could conflict with mandatory signs, the symbols are crossed with a red thick line, or it's at least assumed so by the convention, even though it's not used in practice, like in case of the "no cycling" or "no pedestrians" signs. In Europe, they are crossed practically only in the nordic countries. Norway: or Sweden: vs. Germany: or Poland: .

And this is the template from the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals:



Of course, the convention allows omitting this red crossing bar:

Quote:
NOTE - It shall be open to Contracting Parties to omit from signs C, 3a
to C, 3l
the red
oblique bar joining the upper left quadrant and the lower right quadrant or, provided that this does
not make the symbol less easy to see and understand, not to interrupt the bar where it crosses the
symbol.

Last edited by Kpc21; December 9th, 2017 at 06:43 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2017, 12:11 AM   #280
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The Convention allows quite a lot, here's an example of designs that are all allowed:

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