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View Poll Results: What European bid should be selected as host?
England 217 35.06%
Portugal & Spain 119 19.22%
Belgium & Netherlands 85 13.73%
Russia 198 31.99%
Voters: 619. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 30th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #381
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This makes me extremely angry. What a complete prat.

FIRSTLY...

Perhaps, just perhaps, Dein had been speaking to Platini who on 13th September, when asked if the Americans would pull out said:

"I am sure of this. If the Americans are going to stand a chance of winning in 2022, they can't come to the table in 2018 as well."

Platini knew the Americans were pulling out almost two weeks before Dein's press conference, it was a poorly kept secret within FIFA circles; if Spain's bid didn't know about this, or thought it not worth asking Platini why he said what he said, that's their problem. Dein's words alone do not provide any proof that England was involved in vote collusion. They are simply a rehash of what Platini had said publically two weeks before.

So, Mr Lopez SHUT THE **** UP if you've nothing useful to say. England should complain to FIFA because this suggestion is DEFINITELY in breach of the bidding rules. How dare he make such accusations with no evidence, when there is a much more obvious and innocent explanation for England's knowledge of the US' withdrawl staring him in the face. It's quite clear to me there's only one bid "launching garbage" against a rival and that's the Iberian one.

It should be simple as far as I'm concerned. Mr Lopez should either make his thoughts official by going to the ethics committee or expect a VERY strong complaint from England 2018, which they'd be well within their rights to do. Sadly, I suspect after yesterday's words from Blatter the England bid team has little confidence in the ethics committee, so won't bother. It's a shame that England feels they have more to lose by complaining about slanderous words than by using the official channels, and it says everything you need to know about this shabby process.

SECONDLY....

The Times uncovered evidence of possible vote collusion between your bid and Qatar's. Deal with it. It's not England or England's bid which is launching an attack on your bid Mr Lopez, but one newspaper WHICH HAPPENS TO BE FROM ENGLAND. And furthermore, the evidence is not uncompelling, so saying ""What a coincidence that all of this comes out of England" makes you look as dumb as a bag of wet mice.

The Times did not set out to snare Spain/Portugal 2018 over any other bid. They were looking into FIFA corruption and it just so happens Spain's bid seems to be involved. I'm actually quite certain that if evidence against England's bid had come to light they would have still run with the story.

THIRDLY...



At this moment, Mr Trebus I couldn't agree more.

A world cup here would be great, but the process has been a turn off - the opposite of the 2012 Olympic vote in fact, when the prospect of the Games coming to Britain got more not less exciting as time went on, until we reached the crescedo of the final few days.

At the moment I really can't be arsed, and suspect the vote will be less of a crescendo towards the announcement, and more a discordant din of claims and counter-claims which continue for days afterwards.

The whole process has been a sham, a shoddy excuse for an international bidding contest. FIFA have moved the goalposts more than once, FIFA execs have been uncovered trying to sell their votes, the rules were NOT made public prior to the contest (only the bidding nations knew the rules and were under strict instructions not to disclose them), the response to claims of corruption seems inadequate and likely to harm England's prospects without any good reason (compare this to how the IOC dealt with the BBC's investigation in 2004). I'm actually wondering whether an intimate eight year partnership with FIFA, Blatter et al could do English football more harm than good.

I'm not too bothered by Lopez, despite the fact that what he said was very wrong. The entire world knew that England would withdraw from the 2022 bid and that the US would withdraw from the 2018 bid. Dein didn't have to possess any inside knowledge to make that prediction. And, as you say, the allegations weren't made by the England bid team. They were made by a British newspaper - a British newspaper, by the way, which would have made a far, far bigger deal of the scandal if the England bid had been implicated. It would have been on the front pages for weeks!

But we can dismiss Lopez just because, outside of CONMEBOL, I really can't see Spain / Portugal winning many votes - unless they really have been involved in vote rigging. This outburst is nothing more than a loser's whinge.

But I'm completely with you in feeling utterly depressed by Blatter's feeble, defensive reaction to the Sunday Times allegations. FIFA appears to be corrupt to its core and, if not actually involved in corruption himself (I don't want to have to use words like "allegedly"), Blatter has to bear a large share of the responsibility. His years of leadership have led to FIFA becoming the self serving, political minefield of an organisation that it now is.

Like you, I too fear that, rather than treat this story as an opportunity to put its house in order, FIFA will retreat behind its walls and put the entire blame for the scandal on the British media that exposed it. And I fear that, as sure as night follows day, they will punish England by making sure that World Cup 2018 goes elsewhere. I can also imagine that England will be voted out first or second.

I even fear that England will never again get the chance to host the World Cup (at least in my potential lifetime). Politics - and the absurd notion that FIFA has to take the World Cup to "new" or undeveloped football countries that will build new stadiums (whether or not they actually need them) - always seems to count against England.

The fact that England would host a superb World Cup with fantastic stadiums (that hadn't just been built for the four weeks of the tournament before becoming white elephants) should be enough to guarantee that England would host some time in the near future.

Alas, that's not the case. If not 2018, then 2030 would be the next possible date. Would England bother to bid again, knowing that corruption or political manoeuvring is more likely to win the vote than the actual merits of the bids? And if England did bid again, isn't it just as likely that FIFA would opt for yet another "undeveloped" football country in Europe? In which case, it could be 2042, 2054 or beyond before the game's mother country gets the chance to host again.

It's all very depressing.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #382
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I've no problem with FIFA spreading the Game around. I wouldn't call that an absurd aim - that's what they're there to do, make the game bigger. Besides which, England lost its last bid to Germany, not a new, underdeveloped footballing nation and really at least part of the reason for that was "our" own doing (hooliganism abroad in recent tournaments). So saying the new froniter factor "always seems to count against England" isn't strictly accurate.

If Russia wins and wins cleanly then best of luck to them, I really do mean that. They're a big enough footballing country to build and sustain the number of new stadiums they're proposing. If Qatar wins I'll perhaps be a lot more scpetical, but Russia is not Qatar.

Perhaps Lopez's words are the whinges of a man who knows his bid is in trouble - I really hope that is the case Jim. But I feel, whether that's true or not, if England had any confidence in the ethics committee there'd be an immediate complaint. Accusing another bid of vote collusion is on a different level altogether to bringing up topics like crime or alcoholism. I couldn't imagine an Olympic bid being accused of something like this and the accused not going to the IOC with a valid complaint and it being dealt with. As I said, it shows how little confidence our bid team now has in the process.

Aside from that there's not much to disagree with there Jim. I'm seriously turned off by the whole thing, and as I said in my last post, wonder whether losing and not having an intimate eight year partnership with FIFA would be a blessing in disguise.

Apologies for my rant as well. Perhaps not the most edifying post I've ever written on this forum, but I stand by every word of it.

Last edited by RobH; October 30th, 2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #383
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update:

in the first round it's official: ned/bel will be eliminated.

in the second round:

russia: 10
spain portugal 7
england: 7

an incredible draw!
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:27 PM   #384
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I've no problem with FIFA spreading the Game around. I wouldn't call that an absurd aim - that's what they're there to do, make the game bigger. Besides which, England lost its last bid to Germany, not a new, underdeveloped footballing nation and really at least part of the reason for that was "our" own doing (hooliganism abroad in recent tournaments). So saying the new froniter factor "always seems to count against England" isn't strictly accurate.

If Russia wins and wins cleanly then best of luck to them, I really do mean that. They're a big enough footballing country to build and sustain the number of new stadiums they're proposing. If Qatar wins I'll perhaps be a lot more scpetical, but Russia is not Qatar.

Aside from that there's not much to disagree with there Jim. I'm seriously turned off by the whole thing, and as I said in my last post, wonder whether losing and not having an intimate eight year partnership with FIFA would be a blessing in disguise.

Apologies for my rant as well. Perhaps not the most edifying post I've ever written on this forum, but I stand by every word of it.
Totally agreed about Russia. They have a very good bid - even if there are serious doubts about the long term necessity for all those new 45K stadia when average crowds in the top division of the Russian league hover around the 10-15K mark.

But I do fear that the need to take the world cup to undeveloped football countries has now become official FIFA dogma. We're hearing it over and over again. And if, as can easily happen, such dogma becomes sufficiently ingrained, England (which is among the top two or three developed football countries in the world) will always be at a disadvantage when bidding to host the World Cup.

Added to the endemic corruption and political manoeuvring that always seems to work against England, I do fear for our chances of hosting any time soon.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:27 PM   #385
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It seems the English bid is getting so much flak from pretty much all directions. Initially the Russian's talking about the "British media" distorting their bid and all that nonsense, then of course now it's the Spain/Portugal bid going on about how the English bid is in some secret alliance with the U.S., and on top of all of this you have Sepp Blatter basically saying "The English should have kept their noses out, why would they do this?"

Which leads me to ask the Question, what exactly have we done wrong? Seriously have we done ANYTHING wrong?
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:32 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by matthemod View Post
It seems the English bid is getting so much flak from pretty much all directions. Initially the Russian's talking about the "British media" distorting their bid and all that nonsense, then of course now it's the Spain/Portugal bid going on about how the English bid is in some secret alliance with the U.S., and on top of all of this you have Sepp Blatter basically saying "The English should have kept their noses out, why would they do this?"

Which leads me to ask the Question, what exactly have we done wrong? Seriously have we done ANYTHING wrong?
Of course we've done something wrong!

We're England.

That's provocation enough to much of the global football fraternity!
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:37 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by matthemod View Post
It seems the English bid is getting so much flak from pretty much all directions. Initially the Russian's talking about the "British media" distorting their bid and all that nonsense, then of course now it's the Spain/Portugal bid going on about how the English bid is in some secret alliance with the U.S., and on top of all of this you have Sepp Blatter basically saying "The English should have kept their noses out, why would they do this?"

Which leads me to ask the Question, what exactly have we done wrong? Seriously have we done ANYTHING wrong?
The bid has done very little wrong, but has found itself mired in an unedifying process through no fault of its own. There have been no public accusations against other bids from England 2018, no snide remarks, no evidence that England is involved in any way in seriously trying to buy votes or collude with other bids.

England's bid, along with Belgium/Netherlands, the USA, Australia, Japan, Korea and Russia (a few unwise comments aside), has done nothing wrong. Spain/Portugal is under investigation, as is Qatar.

I think some clarification is needed becuase the whole process has been muddied.

The biggest problems are:

#1. FIFA is corrupt, two of its members have been accused of vote selling, and two bids are implicated in vote collusion. Where that leaves any bid is anyone's guess!

#2. Some people both at FIFA and within some of our rivals' bids (not to mention on SSC) are having great difficulty distinguishing between the British Press and the England bid, and are somtimes purposfully confusing the two. They're muddying the waters and accusations against England are being made which are grossly unfair and based on nothing but bitterness.

And a very distant #3. Sometimes the British Press has overexaggerated stories. This understandably makes other bids upset. But that has nothing to do with the people at England 2018 and doesn't detract from the fact that the biggest story from a British Paper is TRUE, explosive, and if treated in the right manner gives FIFA the opportunity to clean up the Game.

Last edited by RobH; October 30th, 2010 at 05:51 PM.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #388
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So, Mr Lopez SHUT THE **** UP if you've nothing useful to say. England should complain to FIFA because this suggestion is DEFINITELY in breach of the bidding rules. How dare he make such accusations with no evidence, when there is a much more obvious and innocent explanation for England's knowledge of the US' withdrawl staring him in the face. It's quite clear to me there's only one bid "launching garbage" against a rival and that's the Iberian one.
Yet again - don't play a victim after being a devil. England started it, so it has to deal with it. Attempts to play on bureaucracy will make the situation even worse. For an absolute majority in Spain or Russia there is no difference between "private" press and officials. They are representing the country, so country has to deal with them, otherwise will get corresponding answer from different sides of society.

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A world cup here would be great, but the process has been a turn off - the opposite of the 2012 Olympic vote in fact, when the prospect of the Games coming to Britain got more not less exciting as time went on, until we reached the crescedo of the final few days.
Feels like inferiority complex. The world does not spinning around UK. When you bidding for something it doesn't automatically mean that you should get it.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #389
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Yet again - don't play a victim after being a devil. England started it, so it has to deal with it. Attempts to play on bureaucracy will make the situation even worse.
ENGLAND 2018 DID NOT START IT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THAT THE ENGLAND BID IS NOT THE ENGLISH PRESS BEFORE YOU GET IT INTO YOUR SKULL?

Quote:
Feels like inferiority complex. The world does not spinning around UK. When you bidding for something it doesn't automatically mean that you should get it.
Where did I say it did mean that? Seriously coth, **** right off if you've nothing useful to add to this thread. It was doing fine until you arrived.

Last edited by RobH; October 30th, 2010 at 06:10 PM.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #390
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The bid has done very little wrong, but has found itself mired in an unedifying process through no fault of its own. There have been no public accusations against other bids from England 2018, no snide remarks, no evidence that England is involved in any way in seriously trying to buy votes or collude with other bids.

England's bid, along with Belgium/Netherlands, the USA, Australia, Japan, Korea and Russia (a few unwise comments aside), has done nothing wrong. Spain/Portugal is under investigation, as is Qatar.

I think some clarification is needed becuase the whole process has been muddied.

The biggest problems are:

#1. FIFA is corrupt, two of its members have been accused of vote selling, and two bids are implicated in vote collusion. Where that leaves any bid is anyone's guess!

#2. Some people both at FIFA and within some of our rivals' bids (not to mention on SSC) are having great difficulty distinguishing between the British Press and the England bid, and are somtimes purposfully confusing the two. They're muddying the waters and accusations against England are being made which are grossly unfair and based on nothing but bitterness.

And a very distant #3. Sometimes the British Press has overexaggerated stories. This understandably makes other bids upset. But that has nothing to do with the people at England 2018 and doesn't detract from the fact that the biggest story from a British Paper is TRUE, explosive, and if treated in the right manner gives FIFA the opportunity to clean up the Game.
I totally agree with you.

FIFA and UEFA are two corrupt organizations. there is nothing new.

Blatter also had the absurd idea of choosing in the same day who will host the 2 world cup! of course that encourages the free exchange of votes!
it is also true that a minimum of responsibility is of the British press.
too exaggerated!
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:00 PM   #391
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Thanks dacrio. I think those points are all fairly obvious to any reasonably objective observer.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:15 PM   #392
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Quote:
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ENGLAND 2018 DID NOT START IT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THAT THE ENGLAND BID IS NOT THE ENGLISH PRESS BEFORE YOU GET IT INTO YOUR SKULL?

Where did I say it did mean that? Seriously coth, **** right off if you've nothing useful to add to this thread. It was doing fine until you arrived.
I don't see anything fine in pouring a shit on opponents.

As I told you - me, either anyone in Russia doesn't care whatever it's British press or British bid - it's British society. "British press" likes to generalize, sticking stamps on countries by a single example, so getting same in return.

What is still expected is a large apologies from official represents of British sporting policies for a mess caused by British press. Nobody cares of bureaucracy and excuses like it's just the press, not the bid, so we are clear. No you aren't. This shows a simple intolerance.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #393
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I don't see anything fine in pouring a shit on opponents.

As I told you - me, either anyone in Russia doesn't care whatever it's British press or British bid - it's British society. "British press" likes to generalize, sticking stamps on countries by a single example, so getting same in return.
So, given that ludicrous stance answer me this:

If a Russian newspaper uncovered evidence that say, Belgium/Nethlands 2018 was involved in some kind of corruption, you'd presumably not complain if Belgium/Netherlands 2018 decided in return to accuse Russia 2018 of the same offence with no evidence to back up their claim?

Don't lie either. You wouldn't like that one bit.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #394
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This is not only about Spain. This is also about Russia and rest. It's not the first time in the history.

expanded my post for clarification
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #395
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Perhaps you could answer my question.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #396
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I'd point out that the Sunday Mail's story on Triesman was very much agenst the england bids interest. Whats more very little about that story was in the public interest, some texts sent to a mistress is hardly public comment.

The reality is that certain posters reactions here sadly say alot about press freedom within their own nations.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:51 PM   #397
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Exactly.

As I've said countless times before there is good and bad journalism in the UK. As I've also said countless times before England 2018 and our press our completely seperate entities and one shouldn't have to tow the line of the other, or take flak becuase of what the other says or writes. The Press doesn't have to swallow and reprint what the England 2018 team says, and the England 2018 team doesn't have anything to do with what the press may or may not write about any particular aspect of this process.

Despite being told this more than once, posters like coth will continue to insist otherwise because it suits their own agendas. That's really their problem, not ours, but it's a shame that every time they post the thread goes off kilter.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #398
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Yet again - don't play a victim after being a devil. England started it, so it has to deal with it. Attempts to play on bureaucracy will make the situation even worse. For an absolute majority in Spain or Russia there is no difference between "private" press and officials. They are representing the country, so country has to deal with them, otherwise will get corresponding answer from different sides of society.


Feels like inferiority complex. The world does not spinning around UK. When you bidding for something it doesn't automatically mean that you should get it.
You're supposed to be a mod. So why don't you act like one instead of behaving like a troll?

How many more times do you need to have it explained to you that, in England, interference with the press is not allowed? I'm sure that the England 2018 bid team would have loved to have been able to gag the Sunday Mail when it published its sting on Lord Triesman. But, under English law, there was nothing they could do. So why should it be any different just because another country's bid is the focus of an English paper's investigation?

Perhaps, in Russia, the press and the government might be one and the same (I neither know nor care). But that's not the case in England. So stop talking crap about things that you don't understand. Okay?
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Old October 30th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
I don't see anything fine in pouring a shit on opponents.

As I told you - me, either anyone in Russia doesn't care whatever it's British press or British bid - it's British society. "British press" likes to generalize, sticking stamps on countries by a single example, so getting same in return.

What is still expected is a large apologies from official represents of British sporting policies for a mess caused by British press. Nobody cares of bureaucracy and excuses like it's just the press, not the bid, so we are clear. No you aren't. This shows a simple intolerance.
The sunday times is owned by Rupert Murdoch who is an australian born 'american'..by the way every post that you make reads as the nonsensical ramblings of a buffoon.Russia doesnt derserve the world cup but with an organisation as corrupt and malovolent as FIFA they will propably get it.SHAME.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #400
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Russia does deserve the world cup. They're bidding and have a more than credible plan, and are a decent sized footballing nation which have never had it before. But I couldn't agree with you more about coth's nonsensical posts.
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