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Old December 26th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #421
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Rome is not Sao Paulo indeed. Anyhow I think that Rome has the worst continuous traffic jam in Europe. More than a car for inhabitant. It's just statistic that we should reduce the number of cars and their power on city politics...
Even worse than Istanbul? God...

What you posted about that "tram/pre-metro" thing between Saxa Rubra and Laurentina was quite interesting.
I can't figure out why they didn't go ahead with that. Politicians, should I guess?

Due to archaeology, Rome, even though it needs a basic metro, is a much better city for tramways.
They should be given maximum priority.

On the other hand:

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About the archaeology problem you said it right. Outside of the walls it's too damn easy to find enormous remnants also because those areas were never properly studied. The last station building site of C Line, Pantano, more or less 20 km far from city center, saw archaeologic founding.

http://www.romametropolitane.it/stam...o%20archeo.pdf

Almost all the stations had bigger or smaller problems related to archaeology. In San Giovanni station, just a bit outside of the walls, they found an entire farm with the biggest artificial fishpond ever found from the roman period.



The center is not the only problem indeed...
I read about the San Giovanni pond, it was in the news even here in Spain. How much will that delay the opening of Lodi-San Giovanni?
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Old December 27th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #422
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There are cities older than Rome, but I don't think any can compare in terms of archeological complexity. It was a metropolis already 2,000 years ago, then shrank to a size of small town and grew to become huge again. No wonder every dig is a potential major discovery…
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:00 AM   #423
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Alexandria (Egypt) and Istanbul, probably.
Cairo too (especially the parts that are closer to Mit Rahina -current name of Memphis, which is now a suburb of Cairo, while Cairo started as a suburb of Memphis).

Memphis/Cairo, Alexandria, Istanbul and Rome were really big cities in the Ancient Times (ok, Istanbul a bit later, but still...), the four of them.
Rome and Alexandria had a population over one million people (which is nothing now, but by that time it was absolutely huge).
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #424
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Alexandria (Egypt) and Istanbul, probably.
Cairo too (especially the parts that are closer to Mit Rahina -current name of Memphis, which is now a suburb of Cairo, while Cairo started as a suburb of Memphis).

Memphis/Cairo, Alexandria, Istanbul and Rome were really big cities in the Ancient Times (ok, Istanbul a bit later, but still...), the four of them.
Rome and Alexandria had a population over one million people (which is nothing now, but by that time it was absolutely huge).
Right, there are a few somewhat comparable cities. Istanbul is perhaps the most similar to Rome in this regard as it too had two distinct peak periods - Byzantine and Ottoman (Imperial and Papal for Rome). Naples is archeologically quite complicated as well.

I've read that there is hardly anything of interest left above ground in Alexandria. Have there been any archeology related difficulties for Cairo metro? Not that I've heard...
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:36 AM   #425
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Right, there are a few somewhat comparable cities. Istanbul is perhaps the most similar to Rome in this regard as it too had two distinct peak periods - Byzantine and Ottoman (Imperial and Papal for Rome).
Not only. Byzantium was a Classic Greek city, then Roman, then in the 4th century AD became the head of the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantinian Empire), then the Ottoman Empire, it only stopped being the capital after World War I.
No wonder it is so big now. From 330AD till 1923 (1,593 years) being the capital non-stop. Not even Rome itself tops that.

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Naples is archeologically quite complicated as well.
Not really, in the old days Naples was not much bigger than the old town (and Naples still keeps the same streets than in the Ancient Times).
What is complicated is not Naples in itself, but the metropolitan area (the biggest city in the area in the Ancient Times was Santa Maria Capua Vetere, known as Capua in the old days -nothing to do with modern Capua), and then there's Pompei, Pozzuoli, Ercolano, Cuma, etc. It's always been rather populated as an urban area. And volcanoes count quite a bit there too.
Naples is a big city now (and since the Middle Ages), but in the Old Days it was not the most important city in Campania.

While Rome... Rome already had a metropolitan area in the Old Days (overall, the same as nowadays, only that names have changed a little bit and now it's bigger than ever ). Tivoli, Terracina, Frascati, Cerveteri, Ariccia, Lanuvio, Palestrina, Albano Laziale, Ostia... they all existed back then.
And needless to say, roads too. Via Tiburtina (Road to Tivoli), Via Prenestina (Road to Palestrina), Via Tuscolana (Road to Frascati), Via Ostiense (Road to Ostia), etc.
Not long ago I wrote that it's amazing how good they were seen from a modern eye. Via Appia had a better alignment in the Old Days than it has now!!!

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I've read that there is hardly anything of interest left above ground in Alexandria. Have there been any archeology related difficulties for Cairo metro? Not that I've heard...
You know, with archaeology, across the Med things work... differently. Even in Turkey do.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:45 AM   #426
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Trams are not a good solution for the city as trunk routes. Subways in central areas and elevated railways/monorail on the fringes are a good solutions instead.

In Roma, trams should be feeders of subway and commuter rail lines, or fillers of weak links in the larger network.

Many things can be done by speeding and increasing frequency of several metropolitan train lines.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 02:26 AM   #427
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Trams are not a good solution for the city as trunk routes. Subways in central areas and elevated railways/monorail on the fringes are a good solutions instead.

In Roma, trams should be feeders of subway and commuter rail lines, or fillers of weak links in the larger network.

Many things can be done by speeding and increasing frequency of several metropolitan train lines.
That's the theory. But when you're confronted to big archaeological handicaps (and Rome is a unique case in this), you have to manage things the best you can.
And trams can be very practical there. I believe that metro line D should get to be built someday, too. But beyond line D... trams. More lines, and longer trams.

==================================

Coming back to archaeology... was there some form of "public transport" in the Old Days? I mean, stagecoaches or something of the like?
Because in the Old Days people did commute to Rome, too, like now (and from more of less the same places than they do now).
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Old December 27th, 2014, 12:52 PM   #428
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And trams can be very practical there. I believe that metro line D should get to be built someday, too. But beyond line D... trams. More lines, and longer trams.
Well, a complete trunk-line D through Trastevere would close the last real gap if line C is completed one day. What´s left would be tangential-line, but this could be fast-tram. That would create a sufficient metro-network for Rome.

Concerning tram, though it´s the plan from Mussolini times, having a circle-line with radiating tram-routes and some major termini in the city of Rome was the best choice. Personally I do not believe in new tram-alingments in this circle. It makes no sense, as Metro and bus would create a good service and there are not much streets suitable for modern tram-alignment.

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Old December 27th, 2014, 03:14 PM   #429
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I see you are also well-versed in ancient history

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Not only. Byzantium was a Classic Greek city, then Roman, then in the 4th century AD became the head of the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantinian Empire), then the Ottoman Empire, it only stopped being the capital after World War I.
No wonder it is so big now. From 330AD till 1923 (1,593 years) being the capital non-stop. Not even Rome itself tops that.
A city can become huge without ever being important as we see in the developing world now quite frequently. Istanbul is one of the great cities as well. I don't think it tops Rome but that is a matter of opinion.


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Not really, in the old days Naples was not much bigger than the old town (and Naples still keeps the same streets than in the Ancient Times).
What is complicated is not Naples in itself, but the metropolitan area (the biggest city in the area in the Ancient Times was Santa Maria Capua Vetere, known as Capua in the old days -nothing to do with modern Capua), and then there's Pompei, Pozzuoli, Ercolano, Cuma, etc. It's always been rather populated as an urban area. And volcanoes count quite a bit there too.
Naples is a big city now (and since the Middle Ages), but in the Old Days it was not the most important city in Campania.
That's right, Roman Naples wasn't a particularly important city but the coastal Campania has been densely populated since ancient times. I think now it's among the most densely populated areas in EU. Also there are a lot of archeological remains from medieval Naples and they've found quite a few things while digging their own metro line. Beautiful area both historical and nature wise, too bad it struggles with crime and poverty these days.

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Not long ago I wrote that it's amazing how good they were seen from a modern eye. Via Appia had a better alignment in the Old Days than it has now!!!
Roman roads often took the easiest available alignment and often it's possible to top it nowadays only by tunnelling or building longer bridges than they could. Then I think about Romans two things come first in mind - their army and their roads. Of course first roads where meant for the rapid deployment of legions.

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You know, with archaeology, across the Med things work... differently. Even in Turkey do.
That is unfortunately so, albeit it is my understanding that Memphis was never as populous and more importantly the city centre has shifted a significant distance unlike in Rome or Istanbul.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 03:19 PM   #430
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Coming back to archaeology... was there some form of "public transport" in the Old Days? I mean, stagecoaches or something of the like?
Because in the Old Days people did commute to Rome, too, like now (and from more of less the same places than they do now).
I don't think there was. My recollection is that horses were not allowed in the city itself for sanitary reasons except for official business. People didn't travel as much as today and also population density was significantly higher. For intercity travel one could probably higher some kind of transport.

By the way you might be interested in this: http://orbis.stanford.edu/# (Google maps for Roman empire)

What I was thinking about Rome at its peak population during ancient time is what did all those people do economically to earn their living?
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Old December 27th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #431
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Coming back to the transport system I think some more metro is needed despite difficulties with digging there. Trams are good, but there is not enough capacity for a city as large as Rome. Perhaps suburban train network could be further expanded as well.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:23 AM   #432
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Coming back to the transport system I think some more metro is needed despite difficulties with digging there. Trams are good, but there is not enough capacity for a city as large as Rome. Perhaps suburban train network could be further expanded as well.
Actually something that must be expanded in Rome is the tram network, today totally insufficient in both the number of lines and in their commercial speed. All existing lines and new ones show travel only in protected lanes. Unfortunately today lines like 19 or 3 go only in partially protected lanes, often occupied by double lane parked cars and slowed by an incredible number of red lights.
Subway network must be improved also or at least we should arrive to planned system of 4 main lines plus 2 light trains plus the transformation in subway of the Roma Lido and Roma Nord suburban trains.

About the suburban train network, surely must be improved but probably not much expanded. The covered area is really good while the problem stays mostly in the wrong typology of cars (too much regional typology instead of a more subway oriented one) and in the limited number parallel tracks for the different services with the result of a limited offer.

About the archaeologic problem in Rome it should be easy to quote Fellini's Roma and its clip inspired by A Line subway construction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q84gOaPzOWE

Anyhow, it's sure that archeology is a big issue in Rome with its raising of costs and times. But it's also one of the biggest chances that mankind has to have an archaeologic transportation integrated system. Unfortunately, until now, Roman and Italian authorities didn't look like they were able to manage the thing in the proper way. Naples subway, on the other hand, is the demonstration that such interaction between new and old can exist.

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I read about the San Giovanni pond, it was in the news even here in Spain. How much will that delay the opening of Lodi-San Giovanni?
Actually the delay had already been quantified in 1 year more or less. The fishpond was found in 2008 and by 2010 it didn't exist anymore. Probably some traces will be preserved in the station. Unfortunately I cannot find any project to show you.

San Giovanni station should be opened by 2016...
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Old January 4th, 2015, 03:32 PM   #433
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Tram Route 3

Does anyone know the situation concerning the reopening of line 3 to Stazione Trastevere?
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Old January 5th, 2015, 01:54 AM   #434
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Does anyone know the situation concerning the reopening of line 3 to Stazione Trastevere?
Unfortunately there are no affordable related news. On the other hand, the municipality keeps announcing a new tramway called 1 to be developed on existing tracks that should connect Termini with Trastevere. This new line should basically reduce the possibility to see the no.3 arriving to Trastevere...
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Old January 5th, 2015, 10:56 AM   #435
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Tram Route 3

Thank you for the information. I hope something happens before I visit in May!
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Old January 14th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #436
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Small new pic.
This is the first image depicting the new garden realized in collaboration with local associations upon Jonio Station.

[/QUOTE]
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Old January 15th, 2015, 06:10 PM   #437
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January pics of C line building sites. Unfortunately not so much has been accomplished since last report.

http://www.romametropolitane.it/arti...245&CodArt=246

Fori Imperiali



San Giovanni



Lodi



Pigneto



Malatesta



Teano



Gardenie



Mirti

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Old January 15th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #438
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Thanks for the pics!

Are there any estimated dates for the opening of line B1 to Jonio and line C to Lodi?

Thanks in advance!
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Old January 15th, 2015, 07:05 PM   #439
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Yes, February for Jonio (we hope) and May for Lodi.
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Old January 21st, 2015, 08:28 AM   #440
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Talking about Jonio, here are the last pics issued by Roma Metropolitane related to that station.

The main new is how the hanging garden realization is proceeding. Not bad in my opinion.
Different opinion on the other urban design realizations, of really poor level IMHO.

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Comunque visto che nessuno le postava, ecco le foto di avanzamento a gennaio della tratta B1. Non ho postato le foto in cui si capiva che non c'era stato avanzamento.

Stazione/parcheggio Jonio - accesso-scala al giardino sovrastante e ai vari piani del parcheggio.



Visuali varie del giardino sopra









Rampa di uscita del parcheggio





Manufatto di Piazza Capri (che trovo orribile oltre ad essere una occasione sprecatissima di fare architettura anche in contesti residuali). Voglio dire: già Piazza Capri è uno slargo senza senso, almeno potevano fornire degli elementi di riconoscibilità...una fontana, degli alberi, una struttura architettonica! Nulla, fa solo schifo.



Qui invece siamo a Viale Tirreno dove c'era il pozzo di alimentazione. Non è orribile come Piazza Capri ma è comunque un occasione sprecata. Prima c'era un parco con i pini qui, ora c'è una spianata di pietra con dei parcheggi. Ma due alberi? Una panchina? Una fontana? Nulla di nulla, se non una stupida aiuola disassata e del tutto slegata dal resto. Il resto è solo una spianata in cui nessuno vorrà mai sostare nemmeno a pagamento...





L'unica cosa decente alla fine fine è il progetto del giardino di via Gran Paradiso (anche se due alberi in più potevano metterceli) e tale progetto è stato fatto in accordo con il comitato di quartiere.
Non so voi ma a me queste nuove realizzazioni a latere delle linee di metro mi sembrano la più grossa occasione sprecata di fare architettura della città. Sarebbe bastato pochissimo ma non ce l'hanno fatta. Vorrei proprio capire perchè...
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