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Old October 12th, 2009, 07:46 PM   #21
christos-greece
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Quote:
great photos, you had to walk to much to make this...
I also agree
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Old October 12th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #22
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ey manuel! very nice fotos! i like the way you "view" madrid! this is high quality photography...quite a lot of talent there!
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Old October 12th, 2009, 10:51 PM   #23
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Fantastic!
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Old October 14th, 2009, 01:54 AM   #24
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Many thanks guys!
I walked a lot yes...12-15km a day!
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Old October 14th, 2009, 05:50 AM   #25
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Madrid seems to be a very beautiful and vibrant city! Thanks for posting.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 04:53 PM   #26
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Thanks for sharing such wonderful pictures of an amazing city.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #27
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Its possible to see more photos from Madrid city and suburbs?
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Old October 16th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #28
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It's always interesting to see how Madrid and other Spanish cities lack the single-family neighborhoods of the suburbs like in cities further north in Europe. Even Paris goes from an ultra-dense city to kms and kms of neighborhoods almost entirely dedicated to single-family houses sometimes mixed with denser clusters (look on Maps Google). And London's density drops even faster than Paris', where row houses are the norm within walking distance to most intercity train stations. On an aerial map, you can see the kms and kms of row houses which make way for duplexes as you go out. Well this is just London and Paris. The same thing applies to many other French and British cities. But with Spanish cities, it's as if it never goes suburban, which may explain why Spanish cities are smaller in land size than those in countries further north (cities of similar populations). Actually, Greater Madrid does have some single-family neighborhoods but you can circle them easily since they stand out among the density and you can count them with your fingers. Many of those exceptions tend to be upscale neighborhoods with big houses, not the middle-class norm. A similar phenomenon seems to exist in Italy, where single-family neighborhoods also seem less of the norm than in countries more north.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #29
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Ironically, in France it's in the south that you'll see the most sprawled urban areas.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 10:17 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklips View Post
Ironically, in France it's in the south that you'll see the most sprawled urban areas.
Ya it does seem that the sun-bathed cities of southern France have created a desire to want to live in a detached house or villa with a swimming pool if possible. But the cities of Normandy and Brittany are made up of many houses too around the centers.

I should note that Dutch cities outdo French and British cities in having suburbs with collective-living (multifamily). In fact there, it even takes on geometric forms. So maybe it's not so much a North vs South thing. So why does Madrid and other Spanish cities lack the single-family neighborhoods of their neighbours directly to the North, like France and England? And such neighborhoods are not a post-WWII thing. Many British rowhouses go back to Victorian times well before WWI, and many Parisian single-family neighborhoods (those not on the very periphery) were platted (lotted) as early as the late 1800s, while others came about during the between-wars
decades (20s and 30s).

It's a very interesting feeling to see this by train. In London and Paris, taking a commuter train out or an intercity train somewhere comes with a transition. In some lines, you can see yourself leaving the center, entering the more residential neighborhoods dotted or lined with rowhouses, semi-detached or detached houses. You may pass clusters of density (especially in Greater Paris) but you have the sections of houses. The density usually drops and finally you are in the countryside. But in Madrid, it's surreal. There is no transition. You go from 8-12 story apartments in the outskirts sometimes mixed with industrial sections to the countryside all of the sudden. And you seem to reach the countryside a lot faster too, but that may depend on the direction you are leaving.

Last edited by edubejar; October 16th, 2009 at 10:25 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 10:29 PM   #31
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Don't forget that Madrid is a very dense city in the middle of the not so populated centre of the Iberian Peninsula. It's pretty much alone there.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #32
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yeah. that's true. there are no big cities nearby... most of them are located in the coastline, north and south except for Zaragoza.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 06:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
And such neighborhoods are not a post-WWII thing. Many British rowhouses go back to Victorian times well before WWI, and many Parisian single-family neighborhoods (those not on the very periphery) were platted (lotted) as early as the late 1800s, while others came about during the between-wars
decades (20s and 30s).
That's one of the points, most of the ground in the current city of Madrid turned urban by the 60's and 70's, when functionalism and its commie blocks was in vogue, while London was already an 8 million people town in the 1920's, time of garden cities (which existed in Spain too, to a lesser extent). Southern European cities are pretty recent in comparison with some others because of their later industrialization, and that also implies less availability of cars and the fact that people moving to the city by that time had low incomes. Those different circumstances have created different urban models, and since then each of them just try to adapt their new developments to the existing towns. But there's also a cultural thing about it. It's cool anyway, I think this kind of dense towns are functionally more efficient and interesting, I mean, every single suburb is a 'real, lively, town' (or at least it potentially is).
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Old October 17th, 2009, 07:25 PM   #34
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You can't generalize between cities. A city like Madrid is just in the middle of nowhere in a not so hospitable semi-desert. For Barcelona the picture is very different since the cities just has no space to expand because its bounded by the sea and mountains. If you go more inland there are tons of detached homes in the mountains.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 07:30 PM   #35
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Yeah Madrid is lucky because it has plenty of space to expand. That's way this city grew immensly in the 50s and 60s.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 10:05 AM   #36
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@Edubejar, I draw the same conclusions.

----------

But I still fail to see exactly what drives this suburban density. Transport capacity is not the sole driver of that. It is probably cultural and the result of land ownership and development ?
Maybe someone in the knowledge could help here?

What also strikes me is the way suburbanization leaps further out around existing urban nucleus 40-60km from Madrid. In these places, row housing seems more frequent than at the edges of the Madrid built-up area. But it is still far less widespread than, say, London or Paris.

As for the cities and town of Southern France, their main urban expansions were in the late 1970s-80s, at the height of the automobile lead urbanization. But it is true of spanish cities, and yet, they dont sprawl in the same way.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 10:18 AM   #37
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What is a factor in Barcelona for example is that quite a few people have a small apartment in the city and a 2nd residence at the sea or in the mountains. That's why they don't mind to live relatively small. How is that for Madrid.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 01:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
You can't generalize between cities. A city like Madrid is just in the middle of nowhere in a not so hospitable semi-desert. For Barcelona the picture is very different since the cities just has no space to expand because its bounded by the sea and mountains. If you go more inland there are tons of detached homes in the mountains.




That is non sense that shows you donīt a have a clue how Madrid is. Just 30 minutes from the city you get ski resorts, mountains 2.500 meter high and an uncountable lakes for aquatic sports, everything surrounded by centenary forests. Also in the city centre you just can have a look from the royal Palace and enjoy trees till your eyes can see... If you have a doubt just have a look at some of the threads

Have you been to El Escorial, or anywhere in the Sierrra? Have you seen the biggest Highway network in Europe surrounding the city? the biggest airport in Spain, 4th in Europe and top ten in the world? the major fast train hub, in a few years Europeīs biggest? the six World Heritage sites within 100 km from downtown? Spainīs first urban toursit destination? The astonishing cultural life and patrimony? The new modern developments and Iberianīs major economic centre? And yes, Madrid is lucky that still have plenty of space to expand...

Unlike you I donīt need anything to compare, you just have a funny idea what a desert or semi-desert is. But next time you write something, please inform yourself, and if you donīt like tyo compare why do you do then?

Iīm not even from Madrid, I just get tire of this trolling. Enjoy your life and cheer up!
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Old October 18th, 2009, 05:25 PM   #39
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Quote:
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But I still fail to see exactly what drives this suburban density. Transport capacity is not the sole driver of that. It is probably cultural and the result of land ownership and development ?
A bit of everything, but I still think the main factor was the need of cheap dwellings for loads of people with low incomes, many already living in extensive shanty towns around the cities in the 40's, 50s' and 60's. Most of urban development then was carried out by public authorities, which needed to make the dwellings affordable by the population on one hand, and to save as much of money as posible on the other, in a very short time since the slums problem was getting worse and worse. The solution was a extraordinary dense use of the available land. As most of times the developer was the government, there was always capacity to implement big projects.

To understand Spanish urbanism you always have to think about an amazingly fast development and its effects. Madrid was a 1.5 million people agglomeration back en 1950, sixty years later it's four times bigger. That, along with certain cultural features, explains the strong land speculation that leads to an intensive use of land still today, and that speculation combines with the structure of the dense city of cheap dwellings built from 50's to 70's to create extraordinarily compact towns. Now Spaniards are just used to this urban model, and although suburban model has been gaining ground in the last decades, dense environments have been accepted by people as their prototype of urban development.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #40
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You can't generalize between cities. A city like Madrid is just in the middle of nowhere in a not so hospitable semi-desert. For Barcelona the picture is very different since the cities just has no space to expand because its bounded by the sea and mountains. If you go more inland there are tons of detached homes in the mountains.

TROLL, This is Madrid, enjoy

















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