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Old December 9th, 2010, 07:28 PM   #441
Tom Hughes
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Mr Spliff,
I did the maths, and still can't get near 950k. Maybe I missed some.

As I suspected you also included Ascot which isn't in London its almost 30 miles away. The Olympic stadium will eventually have a smaller capacity and will replace either Upton Park or WHL and maybe one other. The rest is purely speculative.....
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Old December 9th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #442
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I keep giving you figures with and without Ascot, please reread my posts. At the end of the day by 2012 London will have over 900,000 (the Olympic venues will be finished by 2011)- and with White Hart Lane scheduled for that date (just been approved after public enquiry) it will be near 970,000.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 08:47 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
I keep giving you figures with and without Ascot, please reread my posts. At the end of the day by 2012 London will have over 900,000 (the Olympic venues will be finished by 2011)- and with White Hart Lane scheduled for that date (just been approved after public enquiry) it will be near 970,000.
It appears you are having WHL 1&2 and the Olympic stadium at the same time. You might not have heard, but WHL2 might not go ahead, and Spurs may move into the olympic stadium (minus 20,000 seats), and then of course minus WHL1 (minus 36,000 seats).... or minus Upton Park and Orient..... in otherwords all these stadia cannot exist at the same time. In anycase, I'm also not sure if the public Inquiry and the planning permission process is complete yet...... however, regardless, the total barely breaks 800k.

At the same time, BA's is more like 1,200k+, and that's with some major capacity reductions lately. They've yet to have any major stadium expansion or redevelopment programme, with many stadia due it. Not bad for a city without a dedicated National or Olympic stadium.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 09:03 PM   #444
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Tom, 2012 - >900,000, with or without WHL2.

At the end of the day London without WHL1 or 2 (and btw if you want to rule out WHL1 youll have to rule in the Olympic Stadium), or even racecourses, circuits etc will still have bigger capacity than anywhere else (and Im not talking metro).



.

Last edited by the spliff fairy; December 9th, 2010 at 09:21 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 09:41 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Tom, 2012 - >900,000, with or without WHL2.

At the end of the day London without WHL1 or 2 (and btw if you want to rule out WHL1 youll have to rule in the Olympic Stadium), or even Ascot still has bigger capacity than anywhere else.
Mr Spliff,
I believe I initially responded to your original figure......you said it HAS 950k including the Olympic stadium..... it hasn't.

I added all your numbers and it comes to just over 815k (I think) including the not yet built olympic stadium and arenas etc. Meaning, London only actually has just over 700k seats now. Ultimately, the olympic stadium will eventually lose 20k seats (I believe), and will replace either WHL1 or Upton Park (and maybe another), meaning the total will fall again with or without the addition of WHL2.

Ascot is not in London.... It is not a London Stadium, but even if it was ........
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Old December 9th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
Is this a..... "maybe it's because I'm a Londoner" moment?

FYI: I've been to Wembley quite a few times actually, old and new. The old one was iconic (if you think external features count for anything), and had a wonderfull atmosphere, but the viewing distances were atrocious. For the new one, apart from the over-engineered arch, what is so iconic? The stadium is a totally c-value led exercise in fitting in the corporates, at the expense of all other good footy stadium design. It really is nothing remarkable or unusual in world stadium terms. As a consequence the atmosphere is nowhere near as good as the old stadium which even had a track to contend with. This is due to poor proportioning of the tiers, fragmentation of the crowd and the poorly located video screens. There are several much smaller stadia in the league with vastly superior atmospheres. Incidentally, I have also never seen Q's like those for toilets at it too (anywhere). It's easy to see where all the surplus facilities went. Tbh, IMO The Millenium wipes the floor with it on most things, atmosphere, viewing quality and viewing distances and certainly value for money, although smaller. The sliding roof meaning it is more flexible and superior technically too. At almost £1bn you dont expect to still get wet on the front sections.

However, going back to my comparison with Buenos Aires, if you take off your London bias, and then compare the number of medium to large stadia in BA.... all equally full of character (have you ever seen the Bombonera for instance?), then you would realise your assertion is misguided. Wembley or not, temporary olympic stadium or not. One club stadium over 43k cannot possibly compare to BA's at least 11 over 42k, and the multitude below that figure. There is also speculation of Argentina/Uruguay joint bid for a future world cup which no doubt would prompt new developments.

BTW..... Fulham and "household name" hardly goes together does it? Apart from Arsenal, the rest put together have won less league championships than Everton (and we haven't even won one in 23 yrs)..... and the lot of them have won less than LFC and EFC put together..... (and the kopites haven't won a league in 20yrs) so household name descriptors is a misplaced argument in this case, or any other don't you think?
firstly im not a Londoner and im a Wolves fan so i know all about clubs that used to be big *cough* - Everton. and just because the likes of fulham, west ham & spurs haven't won a load of trophies doesn't make them any less well known. fulham are now in their tenth consecutive premier league season and played in a major European final last term. whether you choose to acknowledge it or not doesn't matter, what matters is they have had players from every corner of the World which has drawn attention to FFC. they are a household name even in football backwaters like the US since McBride, Bocanegra & Dempsey have played for them.

as for Wembley not having an atmosphere. nonsense. i have been in all levels of the ground and whilst i'd agree the upper tier is vacuous and the middle tier ......... corporate, the lower tier for Englands games vs. Russia and Croatia (twice) vs. worthy opposition in crunch games, was rocking. a friend of mine came to the conclusion that the atmosphere was crap when watching England vs. Estonia from the upper tier, he changed his mind after attending a cup final in the lower tier! i also follow the NFL closely and was fortunate to have my team visit a couple of seasons back, my family & friends who came from the states for the game were suitably impressed with our stadium! they were all dragged to vicarage road the day before so they saw what an English stadium could look like!

as for the millennium stadium, i've been there 4 times, its a great stadium in a fantastic area and yes it was built for a fraction of the price, but its not better than Wembley - thats just what northerners who are upset that the new national stadium wasn't built nearer them say! our national stadium was built in the only city in England that connects directly to every other major city.

again i'd have to agree that as iconic as the old Wembley was it had to go. it was falling down around us and the facilities were from the dark ages. much like the stadiums you are lauding up in Buenos Aries. as amazing as the atmosphere undoubtedly is, its only made possible by the terracing that accounts for most of the 57,000 capacity! if Argentina get the World Cup the capacity will be greatly reduced. one only hopes they can implement German style "safe standing" to retain its atmosphere. but as far as impressive structures go the crumbling Agentine concrete bowls are a long way off the impressive super modern stadia that stands proud in London!
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Old December 9th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #447
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bifdy View Post
firstly im not a Londoner and im a Wolves fan so i know all about clubs that used to be big *cough* - Everton. and just because the likes of fulham, west ham & spurs haven't won a load of trophies doesn't make them any less well known. fulham are now in their tenth consecutive premier league season and played in a major European final last term. whether you choose to acknowledge it or not doesn't matter, what matters is they have had players from every corner of the World which has drawn attention to FFC. they are a household name even in football backwaters like the US since McBride, Bocanegra & Dempsey have played for them.
Contrary to popular belief, football didn't start with the premiership. I agree Everton FC is a mere shadow of its former self, as is LFC....Thanks to the Sky era, many previous unknowns have jumped into the limelight, but it hardly makes them Barcelona......and as they say form is temporary, class is..... etc. You rightly commend Fulham's 10 consecutive years in the top flight (As a wolves fan that must seem miraculous). What would you make of a club that has only been out of the top flight for 4 yrs in its entire history? (but of course that club only "used" to be big of course ).


Quote:
as for Wembley not having an atmosphere. nonsense. i have been in all levels of the ground and whilst i'd agree the upper tier is vacuous and the middle tier ......... corporate, the lower tier for Englands games vs. Russia and Croatia (twice) vs. worthy opposition in crunch games, was rocking. a friend of mine came to the conclusion that the atmosphere was crap when watching England vs. Estonia from the upper tier, he changed his mind after attending a cup final in the lower tier!
I never said it didn't have an atmosphere. Even a field with 90,000 people would have an atmsophere. I attended our final and semi in 2009, and it was easily the quietest wembley games I've attended. (yet the commentators commended the Evertonians for the atmosphere on both occasions). I was in the lower tier for both and it wasn't that loud to me. By comparison the old Wembley was deafening at times, even when fully seated, and with the ridiculously wasteful track surrounding the pitch.

Quote:
as for the millennium stadium, i've been there 4 times, its a great stadium in a fantastic area and yes it was built for a fraction of the price, but its not better than Wembley - thats just what northerners who are upset that the new national stadium wasn't built nearer them say! our national stadium was built in the only city in England that connects directly to every other major city.
Firstly, I'm seriously not arsed that a national stadium wasn't built in the North.... it would never even cross my mind tbh! The Millenium stadium has a much higher proportion of elevated seats than Wembley, and the functionality of the closing roof greatly adds to that in terms of technical innovation and performance.

Quote:
again i'd have to agree that as iconic as the old Wembley was it had to go. it was falling down around us and the facilities were from the dark ages.
But the point is, they didn't replace a football icon with a football stadium (I wasn't a big fan of the old one either BTW).....more like a generic arena designed mainly to serve the corporates. The middle tier extending all around, cutting the "real" support in half (well more like 1/4 upstairs, 2/3rds downstairs and miles from the roof), instead of ensuring the end stands at least had unity. I see Spurs hope to erradicate this issue (that also affects the Emirates) by incorporating a single-tier end stand. Wembley should've had similar, but they went even worse and perched the screens right in the traditional prime seating location (right behind the goal). The end curves at the old Wembley gave it it's atmosphere, there is no way of emulating this in the current set up. The Millenium does all this much better, even with the older stand still in place.

Quote:
much like the stadiums you are lauding up in Buenos Aries. as amazing as the atmosphere undoubtedly is, its only made possible by the terracing that accounts for most of the 57,000 capacity! if Argentina get the World Cup the capacity will be greatly reduced. one only hopes they can implement German style "safe standing" to retain its atmosphere. but as far as impressive structures go the crumbling Agentine concrete bowls are a long way off the impressive super modern stadia that stands proud in London!
You are right, these are mainly very old stadia now, however just 20 yrs ago, they would've been considered far more advanced than practically anything in the UK (Do you remember the state of most of the grounds then, the vast majority were sheds, including Molyneux). Even now the Bombonera is quite something to behold. 20 years ago when I first saw it, I hadn't seen anything like it (and as an Evertonian I was brought up with high stands ), all of the Argentine stadia were bigger in capacity than now, and the vast population and fanaticism of the fans will demand that capacity again when they eventually rebuild. IMO only Wembley and the emirates are fully modern stadia in London terms.... the rest are simply redeveloped traditional stadia. Some are smarter than others, but they're hardly "super-modern"...
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Old December 9th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #448
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a fuller list from before:

Wembley Football 90,000
Twickenham Rugby 82,000
Olympic Stadium 80,000
Emirates Football Stadium 60,000
New Stamford Bridge Football 42,000
White Hart Lane Football, 36,000
Boleyn Ground Football 42,000
Lords Cricket Ground 42,000
The Valley Football, 27,000
Selhurst Park Football, 26,500
O2 Centre Mixed Use, 26,000
Craven Cottage 30,000
Brit Oval Cricket Ground 23,000
Kempton Park 23,000
The New Den , 20,146
Earls Court Arena Mixed Use 20,000
Vicarage Road 20,000
Loftus Road 19,148
Crystal Palace Athletics Stadium 15,500
Twickenham, Stoop 14,826
Matchroom Stadium 13,842
Wimbledon Tennis Centre Court 15,000
Griffin Park 12,763
Stoop Memorial Ground 12,500
Croydon Gateway Arena 12,500
Wimbledon Tennis Number 1 Court 11,500
Epsom Downs Racecourse 11,000
Brisbane Rd 9,271
Sandown Park 8200
Kingsmeadow 6,299
Wimbledon Greyhound 6000
Glyn Hopkin Stadium 6,000
Old Deer Park 5,850
Underhill 5,500
Romford Track 4300
C.P. National Sports Centre 3,500
Wimbledon Tennis No. 2 Court 3000
New River Stadium 2 000
Metrogas Sportsground 2000
Alexandra Palace 1 250
Crayford 1200
Ladywell Arena 1000
Pheonix Sports ground 1000
Greencourt sports club 1000
Tudo Sports Footscray 1000
Wickham Park 1000
Sevenacre Sportsground 1000

Olympic Aquatic Centre 20,000
Olympic Basketball Arena 12,000
Olympic Handball Arena 6,000
Velodrome 6,000

Total (i think) around 943,000.

This is without Ascot (80,000) or White Hart Lane 2 (60,000)

Last edited by the spliff fairy; December 9th, 2010 at 11:52 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 11:17 PM   #449
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"Few of London's are famous outside of er... London..... and in general terms these are monsters compared to most on offer in London. I have been in ALL of London's main stadiums, I have also been in a few of BA's. There is no comparison."

- a quote from Tom Hughes.

maybe if we were still playing football in the dark ages we too would have "monsters" of stadiums like we used to!

White City Stadium 100,000
Highbury 73,000
WHL 75,000
Griffin Park 40,000
Stamford Bridge 100,000
Selhurst Park 52,000
The Valley 75,000
The Den 45,000
Brisbane Road - unofficially 63,000 but officially 39,000

how many of the Argentine stadiums have had major renovations?

London, had they not developed or demolished a load of shitty stadium would put the shitty stadiums of BA to shame!
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Old December 9th, 2010, 11:19 PM   #450
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London, no doubt about that!
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Old December 9th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #451
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There are also probably somewhere between 30-40 non-league grounds holding 3000-5000 or so. I counted 26 down to Rymans League level.

There are probably a few dozen more below that, but there's not that much point counting places smaller than that.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #452
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Sorry for being the pedant but........

Quote:
Wembley Football 90,000
Twickenham Rugby 82,000
Olympic Stadium 80,000
Emirates Football Stadium 60,000
New Stamford Bridge Football 42,000
White Hart Lane Football, 36,000
Boleyn Ground Football 42,000
West ham is approx 35k

Quote:
Lords Cricket Ground 42,000
Lords is 28k, one day maybe.

Quote:
The Valley Football, 27,000
Selhurst Park Football, 26,500

O2 Centre Mixed Use, 26,000

Craven Cottage 30,000
O2 is 20-23k
Craven Cottage 25,500

Brit Oval Cricket Ground 23,000
Kempton Park 23,000.....
The New Den , 20,146
Earls Court Arena Mixed Use 20,000
Vicarage Road 20,000
Loftus Road 19,148
Crystal Palace Athletics Stadium 15,500
Twickenham, Stoop 14,826
Matchroom Stadium 13,842
Wimbledon Tennis Centre Court 15,000
Griffin Park 12,763

Quote:
Stoop Memorial Ground 12,500
How many stoops are there? Aren't these one in the same?

Croydon Gateway Arena 12,500
Wimbledon Tennis Number 1 Court 11,500

Quote:
Epsom Downs Racecourse 11,000
Is surely in Surrey?

Quote:
Brisbane Rd 9,271
Is the matchroom stadium.... again, you can't have it twice.

Quote:
Sandown Park 8200
Surrey?

Quote:
Kingsmeadow 6,299
Wimbledon Greyhound 6000
Glyn Hopkin Stadium 6,000
Old Deer Park 5,850
Underhill 5,500
Romford Track 4300
C.P. National Sports Centre 3,500
Wimbledon Tennis No. 2 Court 3000
New River Stadium 2 000
Metrogas Sportsground 2000
Alexandra Palace 1 250
Crayford 1200
Ladywell Arena 1000
Pheonix Sports ground 1000
Greencourt sports club 1000
Tudo Sports Footscray 1000
Wickham Park 1000
Sevenacre Sportsground 1000

Olympic Aquatic Centre 20,000
Olympic Basketball Arena 12,000
Olympic Handball Arena 6,000
Velodrome 6,000

Quote:
Total (i think) around 943,000.

Maybe it's my calculator but I still make it approx 860k, including all the olympic ones which don't exist yet, meaning there is still only approx 740k at present.

Quote:
This is without Ascot (80,000) or White Hart Lane 2 (60,000)
[/QUOTE]

WHL2 is 56k, (a nett gain of just 20k), unless they take the olympic stadium option which loses 20k for conversion to give a total drop of 56k (if you include the loss of WHL1)...... with an even greater nett loss if Orient and West ham relocate to strtford.

I think your race courses are contentious, although I have included Kempton to show I'm not greedy.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 01:21 AM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifdy View Post
"Few of London's are famous outside of er... London..... and in general terms these are monsters compared to most on offer in London. I have been in ALL of London's main stadiums, I have also been in a few of BA's. There is no comparison."

- a quote from Tom Hughes.

maybe if we were still playing football in the dark ages we too would have "monsters" of stadiums like we used to!

White City Stadium 100,000
Highbury 73,000
WHL 75,000
Griffin Park 40,000
Stamford Bridge 100,000
Selhurst Park 52,000
The Valley 75,000
The Den 45,000
Brisbane Road - unofficially 63,000 but officially 39,000

how many of the Argentine stadiums have had major renovations?

London, had they not developed or demolished a load of shitty stadium would put the shitty stadiums of BA to shame!
I visited all of these old stadia in their former terraced guise, and if you think any of them came close in quality terms to the larger stadia in BA you are deluded. These were first generation, almost victorian efforts mostly. By the end of their terraced days most of the London stadium capacities were tiny. They were nearly all very basic, often with hardly any seats. BTW the capacity for Stamford bridge was a well known over-estimate that it never achieved by quite a margin. Originally Leitch promoted Old Trafford as a 120k stadium to help promote it.... it too never got close to that figure.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:02 AM   #454
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Tom, use a calculator.

AS for the ones in Surrey - check it out on Google Earth - they are absolutely contiguous with the city, only divided by the political city proper boundary (just like the ones you counted on the Melbourne outskirts, and not to mention Melbourne's race courses). The one that isn't contiguous is Ascot, which I left out.

This is the furthest one out, Epsom:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Sandown, (less than 2 miles from Hampton Court palace btw)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:49 AM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Tom, use a calculator.

AS for the ones in Surrey - check it out on Google Earth - they are absolutely contiguous with the city, only divided by the political city proper boundary (just like the ones you counted on the Melbourne outskirts, and not to mention Melbourne's race courses). The one that isn't contiguous is Ascot, which I left out.

This is the furthest one out, Epsom:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Sandown, (less than 2 miles from Hampton Court palace btw)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
I think you maybe still counting some stadia twice, and/or using the wrong capacities. BTW I've never mentioned Melbourne (but I believe someone was saying their tracks are close to town and not in the sticks).... But even with your race courses (I'm not sure how many are inside the conurbation, but Ascot certainly isn't) I still only just get 900k... and that includes 122k of Olympic facilities that don't exist yet... meaning, all in, there is less than 780k, and not 950k at present.... nor ever, since the outcome of the Olympic stadium's future will only reduce that total further as shown previously.

You could always throw in the theatres, and the Odeans.... ?

There will also be a few semi-pro facilities etc, but to be honest every major city in the footy world has these, and they barely register as stadia, and it would be impossible to compare.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 03:38 AM   #456
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london or buenos aires although most of the stadiums in buenos aires are old and ugly
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:20 AM   #457
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Dallas/Fort-Worth is the stadium capital.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 07:13 AM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
I visited all of these old stadia in their former terraced guise, and if you think any of them came close in quality terms to the larger stadia in BA you are deluded. These were first generation, almost victorian efforts mostly. By the end of their terraced days most of the London stadium capacities were tiny. They were nearly all very basic, often with hardly any seats. BTW the capacity for Stamford bridge was a well known over-estimate that it never achieved by quite a margin. Originally Leitch promoted Old Trafford as a 120k stadium to help promote it.... it too never got close to that figure.
i never said i thought the old London stadiums were the same quality as those built in Argentina. that you think i meant that, shows that you think the stadiums of BA are at least on a par in terms of quality with todays London stadiums! now who's delusional?

you also state Londons old grounds hardly had any seats (i knew that). you are aware that only 1 or 2 BA stadiums are all seater? the others are very basic with a low percentage of seats!

now if the OP posed the question, which city has the most football specific stadiums then BA would probably win. but that wasn't the question!

London has a good mix of decent venue's, big and small hosting many different sporting events. Wembley, Twickenham, Lords & Wimbledon are Universally seen as church's to the fans and players of the sports that are played there. no other city boasts a list of stadiums of such stature.

La Bombonera is the only truly iconic and World famous stadium (its more famous for the Boca fans) in BA and Argentina, i couldn't tell you what its proper name is without a google search. it is home to traditionally the second biggest club in the city and currently has the second highest capacity. its the second best stadium in BA, let alone Argentina. (it is still the stadium i would most like to go to in South America, behind the Maracana - its even my second favourite).

if there were more iconic World famous stadiums then BA might have a podium finish but London, Melbourne and LA are streets ahead for me!
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Old December 10th, 2010, 07:31 AM   #459
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nvm

Last edited by bifdy; December 10th, 2010 at 08:01 AM.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
I think you maybe still counting some stadia twice, and/or using the wrong capacities. BTW I've never mentioned Melbourne (but I believe someone was saying their tracks are close to town and not in the sticks).... But even with your race courses (I'm not sure how many are inside the conurbation, but Ascot certainly isn't) I still only just get 900k... and that includes 122k of Olympic facilities that don't exist yet... meaning, all in, there is less than 780k, and not 950k at present.... nor ever, since the outcome of the Olympic stadium's future will only reduce that total further as shown previously.

You could always throw in the theatres, and the Odeans.... ?

There will also be a few semi-pro facilities etc, but to be honest every major city in the footy world has these, and they barely register as stadia, and it would be impossible to compare.

GOD its like hitting your head on a wall. I keep REPEATEDLY leaving out ASCOT, you keep repeatedly thinking Im counting it. Ive not said 950k at present - but by 2012 (actually by 2011 when the work on them are completed).

So far youve had issue with:

1. not counting ASCOT (yes, yes, YES we've heard)
2. not counting national stadiums (????)
3. not counting stadia outside the official city boundaries (but still obviously part of the contiguous city, while previously including such in other cities)
4. not counting racecourses (when you previously counted them for other cities)
5. the Olympic stadia due to be finished next year
6. and now 'semi-pro' stadia.

Obfuscation if you ask me.

At the end of the day feel free to cut those out of whatever criteria youve now decided on, but at least apply these same ommisions to other cities. All I ask.

Last edited by the spliff fairy; December 10th, 2010 at 12:52 PM.
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