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Old December 10th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #461
Tom Hughes
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i never said i thought the old London stadiums were the same quality as those built in Argentina. that you think i meant that, shows that you think the stadiums of BA are at least on a par in terms of quality with todays London stadiums! now who's delusional?
You made the reference to the old stadiums in London (not I), saying they would put the BA's ones "to shame"...... They wouldn't have.
Meanwhile, I've never referred to the quality of all the BA stadiums as superior to the better modern London ones...... but if you think some of the current London stadia are even remotely super modern or state of the art you would be very much mistaken.


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you also state Londons old grounds hardly had any seats (i knew that). you are aware that only 1 or 2 BA stadiums are all seater? the others are very basic with a low percentage of seats!
There's basic, and then there's basic. I'm not sure where you are getting your info from... but of the old stadia you mentioned when at the capacities you quoted, Highbury had easily the highest number of seats (approx 18,000) the rest were all less than 8k (haven't got figures for White city). Most of BA's stadia have considerably more than that... there are also several cantilevered double and triple deckers and expensively constructed curved stadia..... These didn't exist in the UK till very recently.

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now if the OP posed the question, which city has the most football specific stadiums then BA would probably win. but that wasn't the question!
London has a good mix of decent venue's, big and small hosting many different sporting events. Wembley, Twickenham, Lords & Wimbledon are Universally seen as church's to the fans and players of the sports that are played there. no other city boasts a list of stadiums of such stature.
BA has racecourses, Motor racing Tracks and Polo stadia too.... It also has tennis and Rugby, and a whole host of Arenas for other sports..... To the extent that the sum total of the capacities is over 1.2m for greater Buenos Aires..... London's is currently approx 760k but will rise and fall to just under 900k after the Olympics (and that's including race courses in Surrey). Of course on top of everything else, Argentina hasn't yet had the stadium building boom that is sweeping around the world. Their neighbours Brazil have nearly completed there's, and it will soon follow in Argentina, as age and world cup bids dicate.

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La Bombonera is the only truly iconic and World famous stadium (its more famous for the Boca fans) in BA and Argentina, i couldn't tell you what its proper name is without a google search. it is home to traditionally the second biggest club in the city and currently has the second highest capacity. its the second best stadium in BA, let alone Argentina. (it is still the stadium i would most like to go to in South America, behind the Maracana - its even my second favourite).
I'd say most of the football world would know the Bombonera considerably better than they would say Stamford Bridge, WHL or Upton Park.... and certainly any of the smaller ones, but this is not really the issue. The thread asked which was the stadium capital of the world, BA has more stadia with a much larger total capacity..... whether they are iconic or not (which is slightly subjective in anycase) is irrelevant.

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if there were more iconic World famous stadiums then BA might have a podium finish but London, Melbourne and LA are streets ahead for me!
[/QUOTE]

"Streets ahead".......... when they have 3-500k less seats and many fewer stadia in total? You can push the icon thing as far as you like, but that's some margin by any standards.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 01:07 PM   #462
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Could you please stop ruining this thread?
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Old December 10th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
GOD its like hitting your head on a wall. I keep REPEATEDLY leaving out ASCOT, you keep repeatedly thinking Im counting it. Ive not said 950k at present - but by 2012 (actually by 2011 when the work on them are completed).
No, you clearly said London has 950k. It was a simple one line definitive statement, presumably for maximum effect.

All I said was that it was innacurate (to the tune of approx 200k even), and you are now backtracking. In actual fact it will never have 950k (certainly not permanently), as you appear to believe that all these stadia will co-exist post olympics. They can't!

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So far youve had issue with:

1. not counting ASCOT (yes, yes, YES we've heard)
2. not counting national stadiums (????)
I've counted everything on your list.... including National Stadia. Still not 950k

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3. not counting stadia outside the official city boundaries (but still obviously part of the contiguous city, while previously including such in other cities)

Where have I included them elsewhere? I haven't commented on Melbourne!


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4. not counting racecourses (when you previously counted them for other cities)
Again, I counted them.... and guess what?

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5. the Olympic stadia due to be finished next year
I counted them too, even though they don't yet exist.

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6. and now 'semi-pro' stadia.
I was referring to another person's mention of semi-pro grounds in London.... (to help you out in your quest for the magical 950K)

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Obfuscation if you ask me.

At the end of the day feel free to cut those out of whatever criteria youve now decided on, but at least apply these same ommisions to other cities. All I ask.
Nothing ambiguous at all. I haven't cut anything out except stadia you counted twice (under different names, or isn't that Obfuscation?), and originally a few race tracks I thought were in Surrey, which they are (BTW, I think Jim B agreed the race courses weren't in London). I'm not familiar with horseracing and thought, as did Jim that they weren't in the connurbation..... but even after adding them it still fell short. I calculated, and recalculated using your list (some of which were duplicate or wrong)...... not sure what else you want me to do..... At the end of the day, it wont add up to what you want it to, past, present or future. That's why you're really banging your head against the wall........ Self-inflicted mate!
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
Could you please stop ruining this thread?
Spicy,
Ruining? How? By not conforming to your view perhaps?

So far, what have you brought to this thread? (I haven't read it all, so perhaps you have contributed constructively somewhere)

If you have a point to make about the subject-matter, or anything I've said, feel free. It's called debate. I've questioned a few statements made, and responded to people's answers..... end of. If that's "ruining".... perhaps I'm in the wrong forum!
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #465
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You are attacking and arguing with absolutely everyone who dares to disagree with you on Buenos Aires thing. So please.. give me a break.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:40 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
You are attacking and arguing with absolutely everyone who dares to disagree with you on Buenos Aires thing. So please.. give me a break.
I'm not attacking anyone, and have only responded directly to people's posts, point by point..... Meanwhile, all you've added is "this guy's ridiculous", "Stop ruining this thread" and "get real" to another who dared to mention anywhere other than London.

Not ONE single subject-related point..... Well done!

However, so has not to offend, or hurt your sensitivities.... (and to spare my keyboard) I'll leave this thread to you, so that you can debate and enlighten everyone in your own inimitable way!
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #467
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Tom at the end of the day - and if you use the self same criteria - nowhere adds up to as much as London with the Olympics (which Ive pointed out all along). And not BA, with or whithout a damn national stadium, semi-pro clubs, horse racing tracks or buildings painted blue.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
I'm not attacking anyone, and have only responded directly to people's posts, point by point..... Meanwhile, all you've added is "this guy's ridiculous", "Stop ruining this thread" and "get real" to another who dared to mention anywhere other than London.

Not ONE single subject-related point..... Well done!

However, so has not to offend, or hurt your sensitivities.... (and to spare my keyboard) I'll leave this thread to you, so that you can debate and enlighten everyone in your own inimitable way!
I am not allowed to comment your posts now? If i find them ridiculous then i will say so, unless the rules state differently. Last time i checked you are still allowed to express your opinion over someones posts.

I find yours to be ridiculous.

Cheers.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 03:29 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
I am not allowed to comment your posts now? If i find them ridiculous then i will say so, unless the rules state differently. Last time i checked you are still allowed to express your opinion over someones posts.

I find yours to be ridiculous.

Cheers.
Of course you are allowed to comment..... you just seem unable and/or unwilling to qualify your opinion in any way, with absolutely no reference to ANY point at all!

Now, that is ridiculous!
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Old December 10th, 2010, 03:57 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Tom at the end of the day - and if you use the self same criteria - nowhere adds up to as much as London with the Olympics (which Ive pointed out all along). And not BA, with or whithout a damn national stadium, semi-pro clubs, horse racing tracks or buildings painted blue.
Spliff.... I'm sorry, but I haven't omitted any of London's stadia that you listed at all (apart from those you had listed twice). I have even added the racetracks (which Jim B, who's a Spurs fan and more familiar with the geography and agrees shouldn't be included). Even then, it is still not what you said it was initially.

If you apply the same "criteria" to greater BA the total will top 1.2 million.... and that is now. Even despite ALL their stadia having had major capacity reductions in recent years, and before they have been redeveloped (as most are earmarked for). London's figures are for a completely revamped set of stadia, with new ones added. BA is not at that point in the stadium development cycle, but worldwide trends and impending international tournament bids indicate they will be in the next few years.... and this figure will need revising.

But anyway, I'll not labour the point anymore, I only wanted to respond to your last point addressed to me, and will leave this thread to others......

tbh, ironically I'm supposed to be busy on a stadium concept in anycase.... so I suppose we'll have to agree to differ.

All the best...
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:16 PM   #471
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Maybe you should question the attendances of spectators in all cities.

I bet you London sell's close to 10,000,000 tickets a year. Unrivalled if you ask me.

Wembley 90,000 x 14 = 1,260,000 tickets
Twickenham 82,000 x 10 = 820,000 tickets
Arsenal 60,000 x 26 = 1,560.000 tickets
Chelsea 41,000 x 26 = 1,066,000 tickets
Tottenham 36,000 x 26 = 936,000 tickets
West Ham 35,000 x 22 = 770,000 tickets
Wimbledon = 551,000 tickets

6 biggest stadiums plus Wimbledon and you've already got an annual attendance of 7,500,000 people. Now add everyone else. I'd be suprised not to see well over 12,000,000 walking through turnstyles in London every year.

Last edited by Ecological; December 10th, 2010 at 04:23 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:28 PM   #472
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It is also a city of around 10million people. Melbourne a city of 4 sells around6-8million aswell or there abouts.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
Nothing ambiguous at all. I haven't cut anything out except stadia you counted twice (under different names, or isn't that Obfuscation?), and originally a few race tracks I thought were in Surrey, which they are (BTW, I think Jim B agreed the race courses weren't in London). I'm not familiar with horseracing and thought, as did Jim that they weren't in the connurbation..... but even after adding them it still fell short. I calculated, and recalculated using your list (some of which were duplicate or wrong)...... not sure what else you want me to do..... At the end of the day, it wont add up to what you want it to, past, present or future. That's why you're really banging your head against the wall........ Self-inflicted mate!
I think I only agreed that Ascot isn't in London.

Sandown, Kempton Park and even Epsom Downs are in London. IMO, anything inside the M25 is London and there is continuous built up area from central London to Epsom Downs.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #474
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BA may have 1.2 million (still need stats on that) - but that's for the metro.

Also are many of the stadia still standing ones? - the kind of capacities London had before the Hillsborough disaster, and after which almost all stadia are now seated, with far reduced capacities. For example places such as Old White Hart Lane 36,000 now was 75,000 before, Stamford Bridge with 42,000 now was a whopping 100,000 before (which would have made it the city's 'largest' despite it being tiny in comparison to new stadia).

Last edited by the spliff fairy; November 14th, 2011 at 02:05 AM.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #475
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If anything is "Typical", it is the taking-for-granted assertion by many Londoners that London will have or be the best...... the anywhere else wont "begin" to match London attitude, with a total disregard for even the most basic of research. I responded directly to such! In actual fact, in years gone by I think you would've found that scousers generally had a broader outlook than most, probably due to disproportionate numbers who went to sea (like myself). Many were more familiar with say New York's and BA's streets and landmarks than they would be with say Manchester's...... but I digress!

Again, I think that's being quite insular of you actually.... As I said there's a whole world out there, and just because the premiership is so well packaged and televised it does not then equate to some sort of reflected London stadium Glory. Very few around the globe would probably recognise WHL, Upton Park, The Valley, The new Den etc. Regardless however, the thread is asking which is the stadium capital of the world and BA's list is longer and with many more bigger stadia. Your problem, as someone with an interest in stadia is that you were blissfully unaware of it.... bless, indeed!

Well to me it is Wembley in name only, no twin towers etc, so I'm not so sure about derived or inherited status. It really is standard fayre tbh.... big, but nothing special IMO... if you doubt me, check out some of the similarly sized newer American stadia with moving pitches, roofs, tiers, suspended TV screens etc. Similarly, tho even more so.... Twickers tbh, good scale but generally very basic, wide open and poor acoustically (Swing low or not). Lords and Wimbledon at least have their historic character and features preserved.... but Lords is dwarfed by most Aussie/Indian cricket grounds, so it's slightly underwhelming in that respect.

Argentina's League is practically based in and around BA... hence the large number of medium to large stadia.... which again is the "theme of the thread". That said, generally Argentina does far better than England internationally, despite their disorganisation.... and London is not the premier league, indeed twice as many prem clubs are from the north-west..... but again, what is the relevance to the thread?
1. Take a look back at this thread. You'll see people from all over the world (and from all over the UK) saying that London is tops for stadiums. They make the same assumptions as Londoners. Yet it is a "typically London" thing to have done???? Something doesn't quite tally there!

By the way, I suspect that the main reason why all these people from around the world were unaware of just how many stadia there are in BA is precisely because, as I have repeatedly stressed, BA's stadiums are not famous to anything like the same extent as London's. QED.

2. It's not a question of being insular. It's just an unavoidable fact that the Premier League is, by a country mile, the most watched domestic football league in the world. It is broadcast to every corner of the globe. And not just as a small hours highlights package on some obscure channel. But live. On mainstream TV channels. Two or three or even four times a week. And that's because it has massive audience figures all around the world. If proof was needed, just google up the recent Premier League overseas broadcasting rights deal. It's phenomenal.

So I would bet you everything that I have that far more people around the world would be able to tell you the name of Spurs' home ground than all but one of BA's football stadiums. And far more people, when shown a picture of Stamford Bridge or even Craven Cottage would be able to identify it correctly than any stadium in BA other than La Bombonera.

3. Wembley may not be anything remarkable (though its size IS remarkable by any European measure). But it doesn't have to be for the stadium to be iconic. The name - and all that it represents to football players and fans around the world - is enough. Besides, the arch is unique and instantly recognizable.

Twickenham, Lords, Wimbledon? Similar story. What they represent gives them a stature and an aura that far exceeds the sum of their concrete and steel parts.

4. Just to be clear, I had no interest in talking about the quality of the Argentine football league until you brought it up. So perhaps you should be asking yourself why it is relevant?

Last edited by JimB; December 10th, 2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #476
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Spliff.... I'm sorry, but I haven't omitted any of London's stadia that you listed at all (apart from those you had listed twice). I have even added the racetracks (which Jim B, who's a Spurs fan and more familiar with the geography and agrees shouldn't be included). Even then, it is still not what you said it was initially.

If you apply the same "criteria" to greater BA the total will top 1.2 million.... and that is now. Even despite ALL their stadia having had major capacity reductions in recent years, and before they have been redeveloped (as most are earmarked for). London's figures are for a completely revamped set of stadia, with new ones added. BA is not at that point in the stadium development cycle, but worldwide trends and impending international tournament bids indicate they will be in the next few years.... and this figure will need revising.

But anyway, I'll not labour the point anymore, I only wanted to respond to your last point addressed to me, and will leave this thread to others......

tbh, ironically I'm supposed to be busy on a stadium concept in anycase.... so I suppose we'll have to agree to differ.

All the best...
A huge proportion of BA's stadium capacity is attributable to standing terraces. Only a tiny proportion of London's capacity is attributable to standing terraces.

So not an entirely like-for-like comparison.

As to the fact that their stadia have all had capacity reductions over the years, the same could be said for London, no?
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Old December 10th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
I am not allowed to comment your posts now? If i find them ridiculous then i will say so, unless the rules state differently. Last time i checked you are still allowed to express your opinion over someones posts.

I find yours to be ridiculous.

Cheers.
typical Londoner!

Last edited by bifdy; December 10th, 2010 at 07:35 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 07:28 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by JimB View Post
A huge proportion of BA's stadium capacity is attributable to standing terraces. Only a tiny proportion of London's capacity is attributable to standing terraces.

So not an entirely like-for-like comparison.

As to the fact that their stadia have all had capacity reductions over the years, the same could be said for London, no?
i tried to point this out to him, and that when London had its "monster" capacities it was very much comparable to the numbers BA can squeeze in their stadiums today. he argued that London's old grounds were nowhere near the quality of BA's!

what he doesn't seem to grasp is that London's stadium quality today far exceeds BA's collective standard! me thinks we are fighting a losing battle, he won't admit that he is wrong, even when London's argument is so strong (post Olympics).
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Old December 10th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
BA may have 1.2 million (still need stats on that) - but that's for the metro.

Also are many of the stadia still standing ones? - the kind of capacities London had before the Hillsborough disaster, and after which almost all stadia are now seated, with far reduced capacities. For example places such as Old White Hart Lane 36,000 now was 75,000 before, Stamford Bridge with 42,000 now was a whopping 100,000 before (which would have made it the city's 'largest' despite it being tiny in comparison to new stadia).
You are a bit out with your timelines. Pre-Hillsborough capacities (presumably meaning just before, not 50 years before) weren't that high.

WHL held 48000, not 75000. Stamford Bridge held 44000, not 100,000.

The other capacities of London's grounds in the mid 1980s were...

Arsenal (Highbury) 60,000
Brentford 37,000 (reduced to just 11500 by 1989, mainly though selling part of the stadium for revelopment)
Charlton 20000 (was 60000 before the giant east side terrace was shut)
Crystal Palace 38000
Fulham 25,600
Millwall (The Den) 32000
Leyton Orient 26000
QPR 27500
Watford 28000
West Ham 35000
Wimbledon (Plough Lane) 15000

The Bradford fire in 1985 resulted in capacities being slashed pretty brutally, and terracing took a further capacity reduction of around 20% after Hillsborough.

Quite how much Argentine capacities would be reduced if subjected to the same capacity standards is open to debate. Certainly they'd be lower, but the sheer number of stadiums in the city/metro area would certainly make Buenos Aires a contender.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #480
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highbury was reduced from 60,000 prior to 1987, I've got Football Grounds of Great Britain (1987) and it says Arsenal reduced the capacity voluntarily to 57,000 no year. I'd assume in the early 80s because our highest crowd in that decade was around 57,000 against villa in 1981.
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