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Old October 17th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
no point in that reply other than to bash the U.S. You're a ****.
Erm you're the one resorting to name calling and coming up with weak arguments, not moi!

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so? Still has 4 times the attendance of any other league...
Total yeah, but what does that mean other than in the more games we played we pulled in more fans, the majority of which have been counted more than once

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still impressive that they have so many fans willing to pay, right?
No because total attendance is basically meaningless, especially when you use it to laud over leagues that don't play the same amount of games

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Wait, its not soccer, so its not.... sorry I forgot. I hate the MLB, and I KNOW thats impressive. Averaging 32,000 spectators for 2,400 games isn't impressive? Then most leagues in Europe aren't either.
When you have 300 million people it isn't.


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So? They're playing in Arenas with 20 to 25 percent the capacity of a European stadium.
Says who?

How many Euriopean stadiums have 80,000-100,000 seats (based on the fact NBA arenas are around 20,000)?

Hardly any.

Quote:
Theres actually around 120 professional sports teams in the country(not even counting the MLS or college teams), theres more than the NFl, you know.... and its still competing with college sports, which draw more than 3-4 European leagues alone...
Once again you have 300 million people

There are over 100 professional football teams in England alone, population c50 million.

There are 36 professional teams in the netherlands population c16 million.

That's just one sport and only two countries.

Don't make me have to compare western Europe to the USA (roughly the same population) it would be ugly

Quote:
Again... more bashing...
Wait what, I stated a point. They play 6 games.

I'd understand bashing to be where you irrationally criticise something with no basis. I am not criticising the sport i'm criticising the argument that the figures are impressive.

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what about those pissant little towns in Europe where people have nothing to do but watch soccer?
Firstly nebraska has a population of 1.7 million and an area of 200,000km2. The largest city Omaha has a population of 438,000. Now you are comparing that example to towns of 50,000-100,000 in densely populated countries, do me a favour.

The facts are their isn't just "Soccer" in Europe. In the UK and France we have Rugby (both forms) and (England) cricket. In scandinavia, Russia and (the former) Czechoslovakia they have Ice hockey. Around the med they have Basketballl. Lest we forget, handball over much of the continent. Tennis, even athletics, oh and F1 and moto GP. Come on now.


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Considering the numbers for EACH LEAGUE... yes, thats very, very impressive. Does Europe have 4 world-class caliber leagues?
what does that matter? if you are saying class dictates why you watch sport then surely that devalues the "impessive achievement" even more.

Anyway what's world class? How can you know a league is truely world class unless a significant percentage of the world's population plays it.

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Besides the champions league nothing comes close.... as you said, its not comparable.
oh wow

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Even though the NCAA could compete with any other league in the world (as I do recall, I've shown you in a past thread)
You've shown me? When have I argued about the NCAA?

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So how about you get off this sports bashing horse you're on and stay on topic...
I'm not bashing no sport, you're just upset that i (and a few others here) have used analysis to dismiss the "impressive" argument and you are just namecalling and lying to make it look like i'm just bashing your sports. Sheesh

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you've done this on about 5 threads I've created alone...
erm ok if you say so. Any evidence to back that statement up

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and now others? You really need to stop that. You're always trying to "PROVE" that Americans lack sports passion...
No i'm not. I recall one thread where someone criticised the way certain fans support their football clubs, thinking back it was probably you, and thinking back you were a bit "ole america is superior" then.

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youre always trying to "PROVE" that we don't support our leagues... just shut up already. Its not hard to understand that its not just Americans that watch basketball or baseball.
No i'm not, is this the way you win arguments by saying someone is (doing) something when they are not and using the evidence of false memories as proof?

No one is saying these figures are bad, they are saying that their "impressiveness" is exaggerated.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 01:16 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
Whats big in Europe may not always be big everywhere else in the world. Maybe you can prove me wrong? How many leagues can compete with an American one? I'm just talking about the leagues, so don't put any twist. Its funny that out of my whole post, you call me ignorant based on one little thing I said concerning European football. XD


but hey, I don't like being called ignorant, so enlighten me. I'm not really here to bash Europe or its sports...
Absolutely, Premier league, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue 1, UEFA Champions League and FA Cup are just tiny, substandard and nowhere near the might of American leagues.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 01:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
what about those pissant little towns in Europe where people have nothing to do but watch soccer?
So in your argument to bilittle European attendances, you are criticising people for attending games? I really don't understand what you're trying to acheive.

Do you want us just to admit that US leagues are better supported and attended than European ones? No can do I'm afraid because if you look at the network of football, for example, especially in England, it's massive. There are 24 tiers of it!

Then's there's rugby - the 6 nations has one of the highest average attendances for a competition in the world.

My point about the Baseball and NBA attendances are that total attendances are totally misleading - if you look at golf or The Ashes attendances they are the biggest in the world, because it's played over multiple days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...age_Attendance
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Old October 17th, 2009, 01:58 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Erm you're the one resorting to name calling and coming up with weak arguments, not moi!
That wasn't even directed at you, smart one.

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Total yeah, but what does that mean other than in the more games we played we pulled in more fans, the majority of which have been counted more than once
Yea, thats how they calculate total attendance for every league in the world, including every European one...
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No because total attendance is basically meaningless, especially when you use it to laud over leagues that don't play the same amount of games
How is it basically meaningly? How else do you measure the strength of a league? By the number of people that don't show up? pathetic.


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When you have 300 million people it isn't.
when its competing with 5 other pro leagues, and a college league that triumphs over every league in the world it is. Also, I don't see how population has a ******* thing to do with this, since we're talking about leagues. Don't you know what a league is?
Quote:


Says who?

How many Euriopean stadiums have 80,000-100,000 seats (based on the fact NBA arenas are around 20,000)?

Hardly any.
Umm, only a handful are over 20,000. But you're right, let me correct myself, they're playing in arenas with 33% capacity... my mistake.


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Once again you have 300 million people

There are over 100 professional football teams in England alone, population c50 million.

There are 36 professional teams in the netherlands population c16 million.

That's just one sport and only two countries.

Don't make me have to compare western Europe to the USA (roughly the same population) it would be ugly
Who cares about 100 pro sport teams when only a handful can compete with American franchises? Are those 100 british teams on the same tier as Man-U? NO FREAKING WAY. Either way, the US has about 200 major pro sports teams, with about a thousand highly spectated college teams and even more thousands semi-pro teams. Not to mention thousands of highschool teams, many of which attract 25,000-50,000 spectators for important games at the highschool level. If you want to play a game of numbers, so can I.


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Firstly nebraska has a population of 1.7 million and an area of 200,000km2. The largest city Omaha has a population of 438,000. Now you are comparing that example to towns of 50,000-100,000 in densely populated countries, do me a favour.
Doesn't matter how you try to justify it, its still extremely arrogant and baseless comment.
Quote:
The facts are their isn't just "Soccer" in Europe. In the UK and France we have Rugby (both forms) and (England) cricket. In scandinavia, Russia and (the former) Czechoslovakia they have Ice hockey. Around the med they have Basketballl. Lest we forget, handball over much of the continent. Tennis, even athletics, oh and F1 and moto GP. Come on now.
Yea... are we talking about sports or leagues? The USA has leagues in all those sports, too... except the U.S. has much more powerful leagues. Name me one league from a sport other than soccer that even comes close to any of the major european ones?



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what does that matter? if you are saying class dictates why you watch sport then surely that devalues the "impessive achievement" even more.

Anyway what's world class? How can you know a league is truely world class unless a significant percentage of the world's population plays it.
World class = One of the 5 most watched, most profitable leagues. None of the European leagues are in the top 5... though I'll admit, the gap isn't far and all the major Euro leagues are in the top 10.



Quote:
I'm not bashing no sport, you're just upset that i (and a few others here) have used analysis to dismiss the "impressive" argument and you are just namecalling and lying to make it look like i'm just bashing your sports. Sheesh
If you add up the attendances and games played of all major European and American leagues... its the USA that comes out on top, so how can you NOT call that impressive? Jealousy.


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No i'm not. I recall one thread where someone criticised the way certain fans support their football clubs, thinking back it was probably you, and thinking back you were a bit "ole america is superior" then.
Wow, so you denigrating North American sports = me saying they're superior?

Don't tell me you don't remember when you were telling Americans that we lack passion for our sports. I mean, you provoked this argument just like tha last ones.


Quote:
No i'm not, is this the way you win arguments by saying someone is (doing) something when they are not and using the evidence of false memories as proof?

No one is saying these figures are bad, they are saying that their "impressiveness" is exaggerated.
Total attendance:







Now, can we get back on topic? I feel stupid just for helping this off topic convo continue.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Luke80 View Post
So in your argument to bilittle European attendances, you are criticising people for attending games? I really don't understand what you're trying to acheive.

Do you want us just to admit that US leagues are better supported and attended than European ones? No can do I'm afraid because if you look at the network of football, for example, especially in England, it's massive. There are 24 tiers of it!

Then's there's rugby - the 6 nations has one of the highest average attendances for a competition in the world.

My point about the Baseball and NBA attendances are that total attendances are totally misleading - if you look at golf or The Ashes attendances they are the biggest in the world, because it's played over multiple days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...age_Attendance
Oh my god, can't you read? when the hell did I belittle anyone? Its your brit friend talking shit, not me. I never said no one watched European leagues... on the contrary, you guys are the ones being ignorant saying no one watches American sports/leagues.


Are you offended just becuase I corrected you and your friend?

I want you to shut up, stop bashing American sports, and continue on topic. Or did you forget that you helped provoke all this? Why are you on the defensive now? Pathetic.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:14 AM   #106
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Where have I bashed American sports? How did I provoke this? The only thing I've bashed is your method of distinguishing good attendances because I believe average attendances are a far better parameter than total attendances.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #107
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Where have I bashed American sports? How did I provoke this? The only thing I've bashed is your method of distinguishing good attendances because I believe average attendances are a far better parameter than total attendances.
Okay, sorry for being aggressive, becuase a lot of baseless anti-Americanism can get to me sooner or later... but you did state that the numbers weren't impressive for any of the leagues, though... thats pretty much bashing don't you think? If you think average attendance is the way to go, then why isn't the MLB's impressive at 32,000 for almost 2,500 games? Like I said, I hate the MLB, but I can see a powerful league when I see one.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:21 AM   #108
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Absolutely, Premier league, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue 1, UEFA Champions League and FA Cup are just tiny, substandard and nowhere near the might of American leagues.
Actually, wasn't it you that said that none of the American leagues could compare? My posts probably did make it sound like I was bashing European sports a little... but none of my statements came close to the many in this thread. At least I can admit when I'm wrong... I was surprised by some of the European leage's numbers... but if those are impressive, so are the U.S.'s Why can't some people understand that?
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:25 AM   #109
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There's a bit of argy-bargey going on this thread!

It's fair to say that LA, London and Melbourne are the main cities for stadia in the world.

The question is, which city has the highest number of saleable sports seats for games, total gross attendence per annum and highest theoretical attendence?

Now I'd wager that LA and Melbourne might be suprise wins on absolute capacity as you've got the Rosebowl in LA and MCC in Melbourne which are absolutely massive.

However, the Premiership is a huge draw and its almost impossible to get tickets for the games in London so maybe overall attendence in London is the highest?

In terms of sports stadia honorable regards must go out to the San Siro in Milan, Camp Nou in Barca and the Bernabaeu in Madrid.

It is one of my life's ambitions to watch a AC Milan-Inter Milan football game at the San Siro!!!! Truly one of the homes of football.
Are we talking about only large stadium sports (such as football) and only top flight competition?

Out of those three cities the main Professional domestic competitions in each.

Melbourne AFL (9 teams), NRL (1 team), A league (1 team), State cricket (Sheffield shield, 2020, 1 day) (1 team)

London Premier League (4 teams), County Cricket, Guiness Premiership (4 teams) Super League (1 team)

LA MLB (2 teams) MLS (2 teams)

Out of these Melbourne probably has the highest average attendance yet this would probably change if you included Other tiers of English football competition, and College football in LA.

In terms of Absolute capacity you have. Only including Major stadiums have a capacity over 15,000. I know some are no longer used but I just wanted to compare maximum capacity so I included all i could.

Melbourne. MCG 100,000, Docklands 55,000, Melbourne Rectangular stadium 31,500 (as of 2010), Princes Park 30,000?, Victoria park 27,000, Moorabbin 25,000, whitten 25,000, Olympic Park 18,000, Punt road, 15,000. total 326,500

London. Wembley 90,000, Twickenham 82,000, Emirates 60,000, Stamford bridge 42,000, White hart 36,000, Boleyn 35,000, Lords 28,000, The Valley 27,000, selhurst 26,000, craven 25,000, the oval 23,000, den 20,000, Loftus 19,000, Crystal Palace 15,000 Total 528,000

LA. Colliseum 93,000, Rose Bowl, 92,000, Dodger Stadium, 56,000, Home Depot, 27,000, Wingart 22,000. Total 290,000

in this London are Clear winners. I realise LA probably have more than I put I just couldent find any quick information on there minor stadiums.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:29 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
Okay, sorry for being aggressive, becuase a lot of baseless anti-Americanism can get to me sooner or later... but you did state that the numbers weren't impressive for any of the leagues, though... thats pretty much bashing don't you think? If you think average attendance is the way to go, then why isn't the MLB's impressive at 32,000 for almost 2,500 games? Like I said, I hate the MLB, but I can see a powerful league when I see one.
It's fairly impressive, but whenever it's on TV the stadiums never seem close to capacity. I think that is a large reason for my and others views on football attendances here being so good. There are a lot of grounds that are full to capacity (as they are in the NFL and many Divison I college games also).

We are not blessed with as many high capacity stadiums, neither are we blessed with a massive population to fill these stadiums. Therefore success etc. is all relative - just because our premier league attendances are not as high as your NFL attendances, it doesn't mean they are a lesser achievement, just the same as our lower population does not necessarily mean ours are any better.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
Actually, wasn't it you that said that none of the American leagues could compare? My posts probably did make it sound like I was bashing European sports a little... but none of my statements came close to the many in this thread. At least I can admit when I'm wrong... I was surprised by some of the European leage's numbers... but if those are impressive, so are the U.S.'s Why can't some people understand that?
Have you read much of this thread? this started after a claim that NFL, MLB and NCAA where the three biggest, best and most important legues in the world. the Attendance is very impressive, they are very rich, they are run well, they are of a high standard nobody disputes this. it is only that they do not have the same international significance and following as many other leagues in other sports.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:45 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Luke80 View Post
It's fairly impressive, but whenever it's on TV the stadiums never seem close to capacity. I think that is a large reason for my and others views on football attendances here being so good. There are a lot of grounds that are full to capacity (as they are in the NFL and many Divison I college games also).

We are not blessed with as many high capacity stadiums, neither are we blessed with a massive population to fill these stadiums. Therefore success etc. is all relative - just because our premier league attendances are not as high as your NFL attendances, it doesn't mean they are a lesser achievement, just the same as our lower population does not necessarily mean ours are any better.
Well said luke, he can't seem to grasp this fact
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Old October 17th, 2009, 02:56 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Phriggin' Ogre View Post
Considering the numbers for EACH LEAGUE... yes, thats very, very impressive. Does Europe have 4 world-class caliber leagues? Besides the champions league nothing comes close.... as you said, its not comparable.
Ugh, are you for real? Do you realize that the Champions League is a pool of clubs from various leagues across Europe? It's more a playoff system than an independent competition.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:31 AM   #114
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Ugh, are you for real? Do you realize that the Champions League is a pool of clubs from various leagues across Europe? It's more a playoff system than an independent competition.
Yes, I understand. "ugh". I was talking about the clubs and level of attendance.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:32 AM   #115
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Well said luke, he can't seem to grasp this fact
Is that the easy way of saying "he proved me wrong"?
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:32 AM   #116
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That wasn't even directed at you, smart one.
I never said it was, but you're still resorting name calling

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Yea, thats how they calculate total attendance for every league in the world, including every European one...
That wasn't the point (and you know it), the point was total attendance is meaningless.

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How is it basically meaningly? How else do you measure the strength of a league? By the number of people that don't show up? pathetic.
via average attendances.... durrr

then if you want to compare to countries, you bring population into it

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when its competing with 5 other pro leagues, and a college league that triumphs over every league in the world it is.
1. So... you have enough population to sustain the sports

2. These pro leagues are near enough everything (professionally) in these sports, in your country

3. These said sports all run different seasons (with little overlaps), You have baseball in the summer, basketball in the spring, NFL dominates the winter. NFL and college football don't compete, college saturdays NFL sundays.

4. And we aren't competing with other sports...?

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Also, I don't see how population has a ******* thing to do with this, since we're talking about leagues. Don't you know what a league is?
And then the penny drops, you are actually clueless.

The more population you have the more potential fans you have.

Let me break it down for you

I take it you understand the concept of markets (as that's what your teams are based around). You don't give teams to small markets because you don't think they'd have the population to sustain a professional team. Why? because there would likely be less demand for tickets and TV coverage (theoritically)

Lets apply this to Europe we have only one country with a population about 82 million thus the market for sport is theoretically smaller than a market of 300 million. Thus in theory we'd have less demand for tickets and TV coverage. Do you understand yet...?

Quote:
Umm, only a handful are over 20,000. But you're right, let me correct myself, they're playing in arenas with 33% capacity... my mistake.
Once again how many teams play in a stadium above 60,000?

Answer: not many

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Who cares about 100 pro sport teams when only a handful can compete with American franchises?
1. 100 Football teams actually, we have far more pro sports teams

2. who cares if they can't compete with your franchises that isn't the point, and it's far more than a handful if you look at the baseball averages.

Quote:
Are those 100 british teams on the same tier as Man-U? NO FREAKING WAY.
Doest that matter?

There are championship teams who pull crowds greater than premier league teams and league 1 teams than championship teams, so on and so forth

The point is that as much as you may not believe it Manchester united are competiting with Oldham and Stockport for fans. Granted United have a greater pull, but it doesn't diminish the fact that if United had no competition in football in manchester (like in your cities) they'd be even bigger than they are now.

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Either way, the US has about 200 major pro sports teams,
You said 100 earlier, what's it to be?

I can see (about) 32 NFL, 29 MLB, 29 NBA and 23 NHL, 14 MLS where are the rest?

Quote:
with about a thousand highly spectated college teams and even more thousands semi-pro teams. Not to mention thousands of highschool teams, many of which attract 25,000-50,000 spectators for important games at the highschool level. If you want to play a game of numbers, so can I.
6 games a season in college sports, dunno about highschool, although i notice the word important in there and the massive range of 25-50,000.

Also as i said college, high school are the pro teams in these starved areas. LA has no NFL team USC and UCLA are the teams in that city.

Once again you have 300 million people

Quote:
Doesn't matter how you try to justify it, its still extremely arrogant and baseless comment.
What you said was yes (you don't even know what you are arguing)... what was it you said "pissant little towns" in comparison to the state of nebraska.

I merely showed you that nebraska with it's large area and substantial population is neglected, whereas these "pissant" towns are usually located within reach of a large town with a big team. Big difference.

Quote:
Yea... are we talking about sports or leagues? The USA has leagues in all those sports, too... except the U.S. has much more powerful leagues.
So? What has power got to do with attendance, and even then the power is because you have 300 million people.

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Name me one league from a sport other than soccer that even comes close to any of the major european ones?
Did i say any did?

The facts are the NBA and MLB only come close to the NFL, admitedly not that close, because they have small er squad sizes and they play far more games. Not forgetting NFL careers are shorter and revenue is shared more equally.

If NFL was a 42 week sport like football is in Europe it would be in a similar superior position, especially based on the fact it is ahead despite only playing for 5 months.


Quote:
World class = One of the 5 most watched, most profitable leagues.
Eh what, no it doesn't.

And how can you even quantify most watched as we have our friend Mr TV too.

Most profitable is based upon your overheads not the quality of your league. When you are a cartel with salary caps you are in a strong position to make more profit.

When your expressed aim is to make money for your owner first, then of course you will be profitable. In Europe sporting competition generally comes first, and hopefully it always will do.

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None of the European leagues are in the top 5... though I'll admit, the gap isn't far and all the major Euro leagues are in the top 10.
Top 5 what?

What in your head makes the NFL better than the Bundesliga?

Quote:
If you add up the attendances and games played of all major European and American leagues... its the USA that comes out on top, so how can you NOT call that impressive? Jealousy.
You really didn't do your maths did you?

Wait so you want to add up the attendances of Europe (pop 730+ million) of every major sport here, and compare it to your country (pop 300 million).

Obviously we are going to use averages as that is fair. I suppose to make it fairer we should also just make it the EU (pop c450 m) better yet Western Europe which is close to 300 million.

Yo seriously want someone to prove you wrong?

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Wow, so you denigrating North American sports = me saying they're superior?
I think it's clear for everyone in this thread to see that's what you are getting at, even look a few quotes up, seriously

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Don't tell me you don't remember when you were telling Americans that we lack passion for our sports.
I remember saying you don't watch sport with same passion as we do, if that means you "lack passion" in your head then so be it.

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I mean, you provoked this argument just like tha last ones.
I think you'll find i didn't


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Total attendance:



Look in the games played column, then look in the averages column. Shame they don't also have a population column

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Now, can we get back on topic? I feel stupid just for helping this off topic convo continue.
You say that like you've proved me wrong in your points. As other poster are showing you've only gone to prove how deeply ignorant you really and truely are.

Last edited by bigbossman; October 17th, 2009 at 03:39 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:33 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by mvictory View Post
Have you read much of this thread? this started after a claim that NFL, MLB and NCAA where the three biggest, best and most important legues in the world. the Attendance is very impressive, they are very rich, they are run well, they are of a high standard nobody disputes this. it is only that they do not have the same international significance and following as many other leagues in other sports.
nobody said best... just the ones with best attendance. Is that hard for you to understand?



I think its funny how a simple comment about leagues turned into a bash america thread.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:38 AM   #118
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I'm done with the topic, you're right. I'm talking to the guy who was trying to prove to Americans that they lack passion in sports... its like having sex with a paralyzed person. If it makes you happy, then so be it. Total attendance? Means nothing to you. Average attendance? Means nothing. High average and high total? Excuses. I understand that anything that the U.S. does better makes you angry.


I didn't start it, so no one better tell me anything. Its the couple Europeans and an OZ who would rather believe that no one likes American sports than give a little bit of respect. I like how me defending something got twisted into me bashing.
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Last edited by Phriggin' Ogre; October 17th, 2009 at 03:44 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:41 AM   #119
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The point is, i am not saying that if you had professional teams everywhere like we have over here overall support wouldn't be as good as it is now. What i am saying is that brandishing your top leagues as great in terms massively overstates the fact.

If we had closed leagues in our countries for each of our popular sports and only put teams in our biggest metro areas and had ESPN style (these are the majors) marketing i am in no doubt it would have the reverse effect. The point being that our attendance distributions are a product of the structures we have in place in our sports.

Closed leagues push the attendance to the top, Open leagues distribute it far more evenly.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 03:46 AM   #120
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The point is, i am not saying that if you had professional teams everywhere like we have over here overall support wouldn't be as good as it is now. What i am saying is that brandishing your top leagues as great in terms massively overstates the fact.

If we had closed leagues in our countries for each of our popular sports and only put teams in our biggest metro areas and had ESPN style (these are the majors) marketing i am in no doubt it would have the reverse effect. The point being that our attendance distributions are a product of the structures we have in place in our sports.

Closed leagues push the attendance to the top, Open leagues distribute it far more evenly.
I said I was done, man. Please remember that I in no way or shape started this. I was just trying to defend the "lolz no one likes american sports outside the US" and "blah blah blah, you guys have 300 million people, you're impressive stats mean nothing!!" comments. Given that this isn't the first time you've done this, I hope its the last if I just concede. Becuase me defending against ignorant comments translates into me bashing European sports to you guys, which was not my intention. If you guys are so defensive, then so be it. I don't know about you, but I actually get tired of these useless and retarded conversations.
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Last edited by Phriggin' Ogre; October 17th, 2009 at 03:59 AM.
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