United Ireland Referendum

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Use a bit of cop on - do you think the gaurds are going around looking for people using blasphemous langauge? - get a grip.

aahhh

Still missing the point that 21st century Ireland is introducing laws that impact on freedom. EU isn't very happy about it.

So my original point is entirely valid. Not my problem you don't like or can't accept the fact your country has introduced a law that makes a mockery (and has) of modern Ireland and belongs to the middle ages.

[plank007]

[plank007]

Originally Posted by belfastuniguy

I can also walk onto a street in Belfast and call god a wanker and deny his existence. In the Republic I could be arrested and fined.

Rather backward that......not exactly as tolerate as some like to think.

Similarly if I was walk onto the street and slam gays I would be arrested for hate crime.

What’s the difference between slamming gays and slamming Christians?

[belfastuniguy]

Nothing wrong with cherry picking either.

Helps with others aren't aware of details. Shows lack of education. Details are what matter

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by plank007

Similarly if I was walk onto the street and slam gays I would be arrested for hate crime.

What the difference between slamming gays and slamming Christians?

Being a Christian is a choice and a belief. Being gay is genetic, just as it's wrong to slam black people or the disabled.


Comparing religion like that is ridiculous and shows immaturity.

[plank007]

I would never slam anyone for their religious beliefs, sexuality, colour or whatever. However you seem to think it’s ok slam people for their religious beliefs. Who’s the intolerant one…

[nordisk celt83]

wow, major headache reading through this thread!

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by plank007

I would never slam anyone for their religious beliefs, sexuality, colour or whatever. However you seem to think it’s ok slam people for their religious beliefs. Who’s the intolerant one…

Logic failure

I don't criticise them for having a religion, they are perfectly entitled to that.


I criticise the belief system itself and it's flaws. There is a very VERY big difference.

[BenjiBear]

Originally Posted by plank007

I voted yes. I think a United Ireland makes sense for everyone on this Island for a number of reasons – some are more trivial than others...

NI would be entitled to hundreds of millions in EU aid for infrastructure projects which we currently don’t get.

A joint tourist board prompting the whole of Ireland would attract more tourists instead of 2 separate organisations like we currently have.

A United Ireland is more attractive for international organisations to invest in than a divided island

The chances of an Islamic terrorist attack would be reduced because of Irish neutrality.

No more bigoted politics

Guarantee peace on this Island forever.

Irish Language Act

An all Ireland soccer team

I agree with odlum that the younger generation are more in support of a United Ireland...Most people I know in uni and stuff look at the success of the Republic over the years and think I want a piece of that.

Some of those are very twee reasons indeed. What do you propose we do with the 30% (if not more) of the population in NI who work for the UK government when we re-unite here? What is your plan for handling that?

[hovis]

I still want to hear a genuine reason for not having a united Ireland within the UK......

"because we just won't" isn't a proper reason.

Why is it always assumed that it'll be NI joining with the south? Not very nice when the argument's on the other foot, is it?

And as for the suggestion that the ROI should rejoin the Commonwealth, well why not? Why are Ireland the only country of the Commonwealth who aren't in it? If it's alright for all the other nations, why are Ireland so different?

Hatred

[Thefancydanhimself]

Agh, not being in the commonwealth is due to the rules of the commonwealth. Ireland became a republic in 1949, republicd weren't allowed to remain in the commonwealth. Yet a few years later when india decided it wanted to be a republic they changed the rules.
clearly Britain didn't really mind if Ireland left it or not.

At least understand what your talking about before you say hatred

[Conor]

Originally Posted by hovis

I still want to hear a genuine reason for not having a united Ireland within the UK......

"because we just won't" isn't a proper reason.

Why is it always assumed that it'll be NI joining with the south? Not very nice when the argument's on the other foot, is it?

And as for the suggestion that the ROI should rejoin the Commonwealth, well why not? Why are Ireland the only country of the Commonwealth who aren't in it? If it's alright for all the other nations, why are Ireland so different?

Hatred

It is 1000 times easier and 1000 times more likely that NI would become a part of ROI over the whole island becoming part of the UK, and this is why:

- Ireland has nothing to gain from joining the UK. It is (or was, depending on how you look at it) a prosperous, wealthy nation and is doing fine on its own. It has the EU, so why does it need the UK?
- Would most likely spark the re-emergence of the IRA, the troubles on a larger scale etc. The Irish would fight for freedom, and the more extreme NI unionists would probably fight for being unhappy they are part of Ireland (whether they are within the UK or not)
- It just isn't economically viable to merge two countries in the current financial situation.
- Ireland has made it quite clear it does not want much to do with the UK, through symbolic gestures such as leaving the Commonwealth. And there is still bitterness in older generations particularly towards the English.
- The Irish fought for the UK to leave the island in the 20's. Even when home rule was introduced, they still weren't happy until the nation had 100% independence. There hasn't exactly been anything since to prove otherwise.

[hovis]

Originally Posted by Thefancydanhimself

Agh, not being in the commonwealth is due to the rules of the commonwealth. Ireland became a republic in 1949, republicd weren't allowed to remain in the commonwealth. Yet a few years later when india decided it wanted to be a republic they changed the rules.
clearly Britain didn't really mind if Ireland left it or not.

At least understand what your talking about before you say hatred

OK so now there are republics in the Commonwealth, the reason Ireland still don't want to be a member is...?

I know very well what hatred is btw.... I live in Belfast.

[hovis]

Originally Posted by Conor

It is 1000 times easier and 1000 times more likely that NI would become a part of ROI over the whole island becoming part of the UK, and this is why:

- Ireland has nothing to gain from joining the UK. It is (or was, depending on how you look at it) a prosperous, wealthy nation and is doing fine on its own. It has the EU, so why does it need the UK? .

Really? And I take it NI has much to gain however the other way round?

- Would most likely spark the re-emergence of the IRA, the troubles on a larger scale etc. The Irish would fight for freedom, and the more extreme NI unionists would probably fight for being unhappy they are part of Ireland (whether they are within the UK or not)

But of course Loylists will roll over and get their tummies tickled if NI join the south.....

- It just isn't economically viable to merge two countries in the current financial situation.

Yeah, this is true

- Ireland has made it quite clear it does not want much to do with the UK, through symbolic gestures such as leaving the Commonwealth. And there is still bitterness in older generations particularly towards the English.
- The Irish fought for the UK to leave the island in the 20's. Even when home rule was introduced, they still weren't happy until the nation had 100% independence. There hasn't exactly been anything since to prove otherwise.

So, hatred then.

It's ok to hate the English, but not to hate the Irish....

I'm sorry but I'm still very unconvinced if this is the basics of the argument. It wouldn't take much to take these points and use them for NI not joining with the Republic.

[nordisk celt83]

Hovis, I know you're a newbie, but your comments about hatred are quite silly...


Why would people in the Republic hate their largest trading partner, and the country with which they have closest political, cultural and familial ties???

Most people have family and friends in the UK, and around 5-10% of our population are UK citizens or were born in the UK (English accents are ever-present in the Republic), so hatred of the place would be utterly futile.
Even, two of our presidents were born in the UK, and two were members of the old British aristocratic system.
Erskine Childers, was born and bred in London, educated in Cambridge and spoke with a distinguished upper-class British accent, and is regarded as one of the most popular presidents we've ever had...
At a more base level, people shop in the likes of Tesco and Marks and Sparks on a daily basis, and the most watched television programmes in Ireland are Eastenders and Coronation street. Links with Britain permeate through daily life in a very considerable way, and it isn't something viewed with hate or resentment.

The truth is the vast majority of people in the Republic are politically apathetic, and don't spend much time considering domestic matters let alone pondering the merits of rejoining the commonwealth or the UK. I'd add to that very few think about Northern Ireland in any meaningful way, and the majority have never been there, let alone being deeply concious of its situation. (I'd wager the majority who say they favour a united Ireland would change their mind pretty quickly when faced with the reality of civil war and loyalist terrorism, difficult for northern nationalist to accept but it's true.)

In saying all that, few would favour rejoining the union. The reason being the majority in the south (unlike in the north) don't view themselves as British. Also, being a member of the UK had a very negative impact on the part of the island, which is now the Republic. Conversely, the majority in NI consider themselves British and for the majority (obv not all) membership of the UK is seen as a positve thing. It's quite simple really; people have opposing views for a multitude of reasons and they should be respected.

Differences should be accepted and not used to create division!!!

P.s there's frequently newspaper articles about rejoining the union and commonwealth. They're generally not taken seriously, and are seen as journalists trying to create a stir. Although, I believe there's a government review commission looking into the prospect of rejoining the Commonwealth for the greedy reasons of sporting and economic benefits...
Out of interest, is the US failure to join the Commonwealth born out of hatred or apathy???

Finally, 80% of the Republic essentially voted in favour of partition in 1922, and 95% voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement, which relinquished any claim to NI, and recognised the democratic will of the majority in the current NI, so northern unionists have little to be insecure about.

[Thefancydanhimself]

Well said Nordisk.

Just to add to that, David Norris will be running for president next year and he's a major supporter of joining the commonwealth.
The reason we won't become a member of the Uk is mainly a question of identity. We don't feel british, is it hated that keeps slovakia + The czech republic apart, belguim + the netherlands, Germany + Austria.All these are examples of places that used to one country.
Secondly, you can't really row back from having gained independence, it shows a lack of confidence in yourselves to run your own affairs.
It's not all right to hate the English, and very few people do.

Thirdly, I'm sure you do experience hate in Belfast but dont equate what i assume you get from Nationalists in Belfast to what people think down south.
Most peple don't give a shit, this is best evidenced by how Sinn Féin is effectively non-existant down south. 3 or 4 of the seats in the dail i think.

[Thefancydanhimself]

Originally Posted by hovis

OK so now there are republics in the Commonwealth, the reason Ireland still don't want to be a member is...?

I know very well what hatred is btw.... I live in Belfast.

I meant know you facts before you attribute it to hatred. I didn't say who don't know about hatred.


Ireland weren't allowed stay in the Commonwealth.

[nordisk celt83]

Originally Posted by Thefancydanhimself

Well said Nordisk.

Just to add to that, David Norris will be running for president next year and he's a major supporter of joining the commonwealth.
The reason we won't become a member of the Uk is mainly a question of identity. We don't feel british, is it hated that keeps slovakia + The czech republic apart, belguim + the netherlands, Germany + Austria.All these are examples of places that used to one country.
Secondly, you can't really row back from having gained independence, it shows a lack of confidence in yourselves to run your own affairs.
It's not all right to hate the English, and very few people do.

Thirdly, I'm sure you do experience hate in Belfast but dont equate what i assume you get from Nationalists in Belfast to what people think down south.
Most peple don't give a shit, this is best evidenced by how Sinn Féin is effectively non-existant down south. 3 or 4 of the seats in the dail i think.

+1 to all this too.
Even the Sinn Fein vote down south has more to do with getting the local drug dealers out and uber-soicialist babble favoured by the urban working-classes than the united Ireland question. (it's essentially a protest vote)

[belfastuniguy]

We don't feel british, is it hated that keeps slovakia + The czech republic apart, belguim + the netherlands, Germany + Austria.All these are examples of places that used to one country.

OK......the Austrians and Germans don't 'hate' each other and they have never been a single country. Previous to modern Austria was the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Austrian Empire previous to that, it had bits of modern Germany but they were never one country.

The only time it was 'one country' was as the Holy Roman Empire and that didn't breed any hate either, nor did the Nazi Anschluss at any major level.

The Netherlands and Belgium also do not hate each other. Indeed there is more 'hate' if one could go as far as such a word within the regions of Belgium itself.

[heatonparkincakes]

Hate in terms of the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Even in describing the Netherlands and Belgium , demonstrates a certain lack of political knowledge. The Dutch refers to their Flemish neighbours like perhaps Dubliners look at folk from Kerry or Londoners about people from the West Country. Quaint people with funny accents. A little old fashioned and conservative. Hardly hate now. Most Czechs will be rooting for Slovakia in the WC. Again hardly how Scots view Capello's men.

Even if tomorrow there was an unified state, then Ulster/six counties.the province/Northern or North of Ireland would be distinct and part of any deal would contain a considerable level of devolution and self rule.

And given the distinct nature of the North, any imaginary unified state would transform the whole political culture of the island as was partition was a century ago. As Christy Moore sings the old songs won't be worth singing and a whole new culture, flags, anthems and so on would be needed.

And like or not the role and influence of the British state, business and culture will remain. And the link should be encouraged.

Personally when it comes to health and social care (witness the front page of todays Irish Times) it would be better if the North absorbed the South than the other way round.

There is no logic to a unified Irish state. No historical dynamic that compels it. Austrians may well be cultural and linguistic Germans, but that doesnt mean that that country should be a mere Lander within the BRD.

Ultimately if Irish people wish to have a unified state then its up to them and no one else. What ever the feeling is, we can all agree (Irish and non Irish) that the island would be a better run place if folk worked together than apart.

If this ever happens is up to the people themselves.