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Old December 6th, 2005, 10:37 PM   #21
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Old December 6th, 2005, 11:18 PM   #22
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Old December 7th, 2005, 12:00 AM   #23
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Old December 7th, 2005, 01:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Do you know that the "suburbs" where goes Paris metro has a density over 20,000 kmē ?
Just for you to know, Manhattan's density is of 25,000 kmē....

If I get mad at your post, it's simply because I'm outraged that Paris has a metro only serving the center of the city. Just to make you understand, it's a bit as if New York's subway was limited to Manhattan.

Paris is a very badly managed city. The city in itself is ridiculously small (very comparable with Manhattan in many aspects). The "suburbs" neighbouring Paris are denser than is Brooklyn in New York. Do you consider Brooklyn as being "suburbs" ? Well in Paris you would.

Here's the density of Paris and its suburbs. I've added in bold the density of few parts of New York City :
  • Manhattan (NYC) : 25,835/kmē
  • Paris (75) : 24,743/kmē
  • Le Pré st-Gervais (93) : 23,735/kmē
  • Levallois-Perret (92) : 22,887/kmē
  • Vincennes (94) : 22,825/kmē
  • Saint-Mandé (94) : 22,131/kmē
  • Montrouge (92) : 17,632/kmē
  • Boulogne-Billancourt (92) : 17,267/kmē
  • Courbevoie (92) : 16,794/kmē
  • Vanves (92) : 16,396/kmē
  • Clichy (92) : 16,239/kmē
  • Neuilly-sur-Seine (92) : 16,219/kmē
  • Les Lilas (93) : 16,052/kmē
  • Asničres-sur-Seine (92) : 15,604/kmē
  • Le Kremlin-Bicętre (94) : 15,506/kmē
  • Issy-les-Moulineaux (92) : 14,588/kmē
  • Charenton-le-Pont (94) : 14,447/kmē
  • Malakoff (94) : 14,273/kmē
  • Gentilly (94) : 14,264/kmē
  • Brooklyn (NYC) : 13,619/kmē
  • La Garenne-Colombes (92) : 13,445/kmē
  • Bagnolet (93) : 12,749/kmē
  • Puteaux (92) : 12,744/kmē
  • Bois-Colombes (92) : 12,312/kmē
  • The Bronx (NYC) : 12,229/kmē
  • Aubervilliers (93) : 10,923/kmē
  • Suresnes (92) : 10,504/kmē
  • Bourg-la-Reine (92) : 10,253/kmē
  • Montreuil (93) : 10,165/kmē
  • Nogent-sur-Marne (94) : 10,104/kmē
  • Epinay-sur-Seine (94) : 10,089/kmē
  • Queens (NYC) : 7,904/kmē
  • Staten Island (NYC) : 2,895/kmē

Would you say that the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, are suburbs of NYC ? If you would apply to NYC the same treatment as the one you apply to Paris, you would.


NB : Paris métro doesn't reach half of the municipalities mentionned in here.
Remember how large the outer boroughs of New York are. How large are these "suburbs" (as you call them) of Paris? Since the outer boroughs are so large, its hard to view population density at face falue. There is much variation within each borough. For example, downtown Brooklyn and the neighborhoods surrounding it are incredibly dense by any standard. However, the neighborhoods by the ocean, like Mil Basin, are very suburban in nature, and not dense at all. In the Bronx, the South Bronx is as dense as many parts of Manhattan, while Riverdale is suburban. Queens has many dense neighborhoods, but is made up mostly of suburban areas, such as Forest Hills. Queens is also home to 2 of the 3 airports in the New York metro area.

The Subway serves the denser areas only, and rarely serves suburban areas. The cities in New Jersey that PATH serves are as dense, or denser, then many parts of Manhattan. The cities that PATH sereves are also quite large and have varied landscapes. The majority of the PATH served cities have dense urban cores, but also have large industrial areas, protected wetlands, seaports, and airports (in the case of Newark). These all bring the density of these cities down. The areas where PATH stations are located, while nowhere near as dense as midtown, are very dense, and no less urban than most areas served by the New York subway.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 01:43 AM   #25
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Whats the frequency of the PATH lines? 2, 5, 10, 20 minutes?
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Old December 7th, 2005, 02:04 AM   #26
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^

5 minutes durring peak hours, 10-15 at other times
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Old December 7th, 2005, 03:26 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asohn
Remember how large the outer boroughs of New York are. How large are these "suburbs" (as you call them) of Paris?
Well, that's the whole problem. They are ridiculously small !

The city of Paris represents only 2 million people despite having a metropolitan area of 10 million people. And those 10 million people aren't about nearby towns artificially added to Paris population, Paris metropolitan area is indeed totally surrounded with fields.

Actually, this is a heavy issue to me. All the riots in Paris "suburbs" you've heard are actually heavily dense municipalities which are administratively totally apart from the city of Paris. But anyway I'm already enough off-topic.

Quote:
Since the outer boroughs are so large, its hard to view population density at face falue. There is much variation within each borough. For example, downtown Brooklyn and the neighborhoods surrounding it are incredibly dense by any standard. However, the neighborhoods by the ocean, like Mil Basin, are very suburban in nature, and not dense at all. In the Bronx, the South Bronx is as dense as many parts of Manhattan, while Riverdale is suburban. Queens has many dense neighborhoods, but is made up mostly of suburban areas, such as Forest Hills. Queens is also home to 2 of the 3 airports in the New York metro area.
There's no equivalent to NYC boroughs in here as Paris is a bit what would be New York if the municipality hadn't been enlarged to today 5 boroughs in 1895.

However, Paris region is divided in 8 departments, and if you check the 4 inner departments, the comparison with NYC 4 "main" boroughs is actually stunning :



Actually, I'm personally heavily supporting Paris to be enlarged to those 4 departments in using NYC's model of boroughs.

The 3 departments of Hauts de Seine, Val de Marne and Seine Saint Denis are indeed very comparable with Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Indeed, they are heavily dense near Paris (Manhattan), and a lot more suburban behind. However, Paris is of course not as big as New York. As a consequence, Queens is obviously a better comparison of what you can get than Brooklyn would be. But I hope you've got the idea.

Quote:
The Subway serves the denser areas only, and rarely serves suburban areas. The cities in New Jersey that PATH serves are as dense, or denser, then many parts of Manhattan. The cities that PATH sereves are also quite large and have varied landscapes. The majority of the PATH served cities have dense urban cores, but also have large industrial areas, protected wetlands, seaports, and airports (in the case of Newark). These all bring the density of these cities down. The areas where PATH stations are located, while nowhere near as dense as midtown, are very dense, and no less urban than most areas served by the New York subway.
Actually, NYC has in my opinion the best subway system in the world. What makes it so great is the fact that there are 4 rail lanes instead of 2. As such, you have both express trains and proximity trains on the same lines. That's a terrific system.

In Paris, the "banlieues" have been massively ignored by city transport planners. Hence we have a proximity network similar to Manhattan's, but almost nothing outside the border of the city. The big problem when you can't have express trains is that the subway loses fast its usefulness with distance as the number of stations massively slow down the speed of the system. That's the main reason why Paris métro, despite the density of neighbouring areas, is so small.

Knowing the huge problems of transportation in the area, people imagined a brand new system : The RER, which is about a subway in the center becoming a suburban rail outside. The RER was originally designed as an express métro and if you check lines A and B, they are really not far to be subways. In my personal opinion, they actually are.

Unfortunately, further devellopements of the RER has been made by the national rail company (instead of the subway company for the lines A and B). What that company has made is only about connecting main national rail stations with big tunnels in order to create fake RER lines. That's how Paris got the horrific lines C, D and E. Unfortunately, as Paris constantly ignores its banlieues. Hence, those 3 lines have been designed as regional and not metropolitan... and they go really far beyond the limits of the metropolitan area, in villages where no one goes.

That's why despite their high frequency in the center (2 minutes between trains in rush hours), however they divide in too many branches and we can wait untill 15 minutes between trains. That's why I would not qualify them as express subway lines.

If I were God, I would transform those lines in a genuine metropolitan express subway. This is exactly what people need and I'm convinced there's not so much money to spend. When we see the success of the lines A and B of the RER (300 million passengers per year only on line A !!), we can only be convinced that's the thing which should be done.




But anyway, all this is once again totally off-topic. I'm sorry about it. And you're totally right. The PATH is in many ways a subway. Do you have the figures of the annual passengers traffic on the PATH network ?
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Old December 7th, 2005, 03:41 AM   #28
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^ 57.7 million in 2004 according to APTA, about 200,000 / weekday.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 03:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_nick
^ 57.7 million in 2004 according to APTA, about 200,000 / weekday.
I expected more honnestly. Obviously the Hudson river is a big psychological border since few people living in Jersey works in Manhattan (or at least go there with the PATH).

EDIT : But that of course doesn't disqualify it as a subway, I want things to be clear. Many subways in the world would dream to have such a traffic.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 05:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
I expected more honnestly. Obviously the Hudson river is a big psychological border since few people living in Jersey works in Manhattan (or at least go there with the PATH)
Few people? Nearly half of the metro area is in New Jersey, and, while I don't have any statistics to prove it, I wouldn't be surprised if half those commuting into Manhattan were from Jersey.

You have to bear in mind that PATH doesn't serve suburbs, it serves dense urban areas that are rather poor in many places. The real "commuters" live in the suburbs of North and Central Jersey. Most of these commuters drive, crossing the Hudson on the George Washignton Bridge, in the Lincoln Tunnel, or in the Holand Tunnel.

Also, New Jersey is home to a large commuter rail netowrk. These lines feed into NJTransit's main terminal in Hoboken (PATH stops directly at the station). A few years ago, the Seacaucus Transfer Station opened, allowing NJTransit commuters to transfer directly to Penn Station in midtown Manhattan, before stopping at Hoboken.

In addition, many commuters take buses operated by both NJTransit and private bus companies. These buses usually stop at the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown.

PATH, in the scheme of things, plays a very small role in commuting, and is but a small part of the vast transportaion infrastructure of New Jersey.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 07:40 AM   #31
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i'm from JC and the PATH is definitely used; sometimes it's downright packed in some stations -- anyway, i bet in 10 years the area around exchange place is going to boom; it's poised for redevelopment and it's so close to NYC (just a couple min), that i predict residential towers will soar around exchange place...
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Old December 7th, 2005, 07:51 AM   #32
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^ I hope I didn't give that impression. I was merely responding to the post that said that very few people come from NJ to NYC.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 08:15 AM   #33
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It's a nice little system. Stations are nice compared to some NYC subway stations

What it could use:
-Isolate it from freight tracks (there's only one connection), this will mean that you won't need to get cars certified by the FRA (federal railroad administration) every time you need new cars.
-Automate it and get rid of conductors - LIM usage would be nice here. They missed their chance when the WTC station was closed. Oh well.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 03:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asohn
^ I hope I didn't give that impression. I was merely responding to the post that said that very few people come from NJ to NYC.
Sorry Asohn. That's not the message I wanted to give in my post. And after reading it again I can understand you've got it this way but you've still been misleaded. I didn't mean it the way you've taken it.

Actually, I was surprised that the annual traffic was "only" of 60 million passengers because I expected it to be even more, considering the close relationship between both sides of the Hudson river. However, you've already brilliantly answered to that post. As the PATH is a relatively small network compared to the huge size of NJ suburbs, it serves only a small part of the needs for transit between both sides.

I'm sorry but it was important for me to correct this point.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 04:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashon

Few people? Nearly half of the metro area is in New Jersey, and, while I don't have any statistics to prove it, I wouldn't be surprised if half those commuting into Manhattan were from Jersey.

You have to bear in mind that PATH doesn't serve suburbs, it serves dense urban areas that are rather poor in many places. The real "commuters" live in the suburbs of North and Central Jersey. Most of these commuters drive, crossing the Hudson on the George Washignton Bridge, in the Lincoln Tunnel, or in the Holand Tunnel.
Actually, only about 250,000 out of 3 million workers in the New Jersey part of the metro work in Manhattan according to the 2000 census. And most of the people commuting to Manhattan take a train or bus to work.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 05:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palal
What it could use:
-Isolate it from freight tracks (there's only one connection), this will mean that you won't need to get cars certified by the FRA (federal railroad administration) every time you need new cars.
That is such a trange regulation. The connection between Stockholm's subway system (based on NYC's btw) is instrumental in getting new cars delivered - they just roll in It's not like some random freight train si gonig to mistakenly enter the subways.

Another improvment would be to make it part of the MTA's fare system - so you could just use your metrocard (or is that already done?).
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Old December 7th, 2005, 05:17 PM   #37
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^ Pay per ride metrocards are accepted in PATH now, not unlimited ride though.
The PA is introducing a smartcard system next year which will eventually be accepted on the NY subways, MTA buses, NJT buses and all three commuter rail systems.
The new turnstiles have already been installed:

These turnstiles accept the PATH Quickcard, pay per ride Metrocards, and are equipped to accept smartcards.

And I agree, it is a strange regulation, but so are most FRA regulations.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 12:48 AM   #38
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Another problem with PATH is that it doesn't connect directly to Newark International Airport. After you get off PATH in Newark, you have to switch to a commuter train to get to the airport.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 04:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede
That is such a trange regulation. The connection between Stockholm's subway system (based on NYC's btw) is instrumental in getting new cars delivered - they just roll in It's not like some random freight train si gonig to mistakenly enter the subways.

Another improvment would be to make it part of the MTA's fare system - so you could just use your metrocard (or is that already done?).
Most cars in the US get delivered on trailers and a connection with live freight tracks means that FRA needs to approve the cars' crashworthiness, which is a pain in the behind.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 04:24 AM   #40
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yep. The fra was also a major reason for why the acela was overweight because the fra made it be able to stand twice the force of other hsts in the world because it operates on a line used by freight trains
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