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Old October 26th, 2009, 06:28 PM   #1
bluemeansgo
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MISC | HSR Accelaration

Something I think that is often neglected when talking about High speed trains is how long they take to get to their top speed and how long they take to go from top [operating] speed to full stop.

I have been looking for information on the actual acceleration figures and it seems that the information is difficult to find. I could only find the acceleration for the N700 in Japan.

According to wikipedia, it accelerates at 2.6 km/h/s. This gets it up to its maximum speed in about 3 minutes.

How does this compare to:
  • JR N700 0.72m/sē (based on 2.6km/h/s)
  • JR E3 Series
  • Siemen's ICE2/ICE3/Velaro
  • Alstom's TGV/AGV
  • Italy's Pendolino
  • Bombardier Zefiro 0.6m/sē (0.7m/sē for 250km/h trainsets)
  • Spain's Talgo
  • Korea's KTX
  • Other...

How important really IS acceleration and braking? How much time can a trip be shortened by?

For example, if a train running 350km/h has the worst acceleration at what speed will the train with the best acceleration equal it for an average trip?

I know trains often have to slow down in urban areas and stops along the way, so it would be interesting to know for how much time the train is actually traveling at its top speed and what percentage of the trip is spend just speeding up and slowing down.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; October 26th, 2009 at 07:45 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #2
bluemeansgo
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I have found some information on the Zefiro:

250 & 300+ km/h trainsets
Acceleration at start with full load
0.57 m/sē (up to 50 km/h)

Residual acceleration at max operating speed (300km+ version)
≥ 0.06 m/s2
Residual acceleration at max operating speed (250km version)
≥ 0.07 m/s2


Service brake
0.6 m/sē 300 km/h – 200 km/h
0.8 m/sē 200 km/h – 0 km/h

Google tells me that 2.6km/h/s = 0.722 m/sē so about 20% faster acceleration. Anyone find data for other trainsets?
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Old October 27th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #3
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Unless you can get hold of the actual acceleration graph it's rather useless to compare trains. Anyway Talgo states on their webpage 1.2m/sē.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
For example, if a train running 350km/h has the worst acceleration at what speed will the train with the best acceleration equal it for an average trip?
A train running 350km/h accelerates like this:

One stop (CRH2C): Leave Tianjin at 2008-08-04 06:34:50; Stop at Wuqing for one minute; Arrive Beijing South at 07:11:00
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/905...ecc9d05d03.png


Non-stop (CRH2C): Leave Tianjin at 2008-08-04 08:09:35; Arrive Beijing South at 08:39:25
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/243...f510bc35b8.png



Last edited by yaohua2000; October 27th, 2009 at 01:43 AM.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 02:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Unless you can get hold of the actual acceleration graph it's rather useless to compare trains. Anyway Talgo states on their webpage 1.2m/sē.
Sorry, but this is the maximum lateral acceleration in curve. It has nothing to do with "speeding up" capability of a high speed train.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #6
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The Alstom Pendolino ETR600 gets the max speed of 250 kph in about 3 minutes. But i don't know its max acceleration.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #7
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wow, thx @yaohua2000 for posting those graphs, i can draw some serious conclusions from it

obviously today (the Wuhan-Guangzhou is not open yet) the only place the chinese can run above 300 kph is Beijing-Tianjin, and you did these tests just before the olympics in 2008

now:
- it is worth noting that they only reached 350 for a SINGLE minute (!)
- 330++ is for 11 minutes
- this graph shows just how important it is to build LONG lines (hundreds and hundreds of kms) and pass-through stations for these kind of speeds: look at the first graph, for the entire lenght it is either accelerating or braking :o

based on the second graph, where they only go at 350 for a single minute, i'd say after the olympics they probably abandoned that all together and they are only running at 330 kph
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Old October 27th, 2009, 05:33 PM   #8
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http://www.twoof.freeserve.co.uk/motion1.htm has some useful info on how to work out a train's acceration characteristics.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
based on the second graph, where they only go at 350 for a single minute, i'd say after the olympics they probably abandoned that all together and they are only running at 330 kph
They abandoned that before the end of the Olympics. The last time I recorded 350 km/h of running was on August 11, 2008. It had slowed down to 340 km/h since August 12, and later to 335 km/h, and now at 330 km/h.
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Old October 27th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #10
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Speed at full throttle of the Siemens Velero E and the Talgo 350.
Inclination: 2%
IDA-> Departure
Vuelta -> Return
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Old October 27th, 2009, 07:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
Sorry, but this is the maximum lateral acceleration in curve. It has nothing to do with "speeding up" capability of a high speed train.
You're absolutely right, I didn't read correct. Anyway, maximum curve acceleration is rather important unless the line is dead straight, for example maximum curve speed for given curve radius between the RENFE S102 and S103 at 1,1 3,9 5,9 and 10km radius.


Serie 102 140 km/h 244 km/h 257 km/h 285 km/h 299 km/h

Serie 103 136 km/h 232 km/h. 241 km/h 271 km/h 285 km/h
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Old October 27th, 2009, 09:18 PM   #12
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It depends on how long the track is...

For shorter routes good acceleration is important...
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Old October 27th, 2009, 09:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
They abandoned that before the end of the Olympics. The last time I recorded 350 km/h of running was on August 11, 2008. It had slowed down to 340 km/h since August 12, and later to 335 km/h, and now at 330 km/h.
THANK YOU for confirming this

there is waaaay too much confusion about the actual speed of that line, and i kept arguing that there is no way without ETCS Level 2
so they are only doing 330kph
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Old October 27th, 2009, 11:40 PM   #14
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the bigger impact is done by the space in between stops, the number of stops, and the speed limits surrounding the stops.

the acclelerating capabilities of the moving stock it self should not be place on top of the pirority list.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
A train running 350km/h accelerates like this:

Non-stop (CRH2C): Leave Tianjin at 2008-08-04 08:09:35; Arrive Beijing South at 08:39:25
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/243...f510bc35b8.png

AWESOME! Thanks so much. This really puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

From that graph, it looks like it takes about 9 minutes in "real world" acceleration. I'd imagine this is because trains typically won't go full acceleration.

I believe that CRH-2 is a modified E2-1000 Shinkansen with extra motor cars in the middle ( to increase its speed from 250 to 350 ).

Now... a way to quantify this all.

Of course, stopping patterns matter... however the faster the acceleration and braking the less stopping matters. In essence, you can have stops closer together and maintain the same overall speed. But again, it would depend on how much acceleration really plays a part.

If the fastest accelerating train was played against the slowest one and there were 1 stop every 100km what kind of a time difference are we looking at for a 1000km line?

How about if stops were spaced out every 200km?
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Old October 28th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #16
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more confusions

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
THANK YOU for confirming this

there is waaaay too much confusion about the actual speed of that line, and i kept arguing that there is no way without ETCS Level 2
so they are only doing 330kph
I think you are pretty confused with your argument gramercy yourself. The fact that they lowered the top-speed to 330km/h proves NOTHING about what is or is not possible with or without ETCS level 2. The explanation can be VERY simple: it is not energy efficient to reach the top speed of 350km/m when the short length of the track means one can only maintain that speed for one minute. Maybe you can try your argument again when the wuhan-guangzhou line opens later this year, but it simply does not work with such a short line as Beijing-Tianjin.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 01:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
AWESOME! Thanks so much. This really puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

From that graph, it looks like it takes about 9 minutes in "real world" acceleration. I'd imagine this is because trains typically won't go full acceleration.
The Velaro E, same train but slight lighter (425t) than CRH3 (447t) accelerate 0-320km/h in 380 seconds, that's 6 minutes and 20 seconds. So the 9 min
is definitely not full acceleration.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 08:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The Velaro E, same train but slight lighter (425t) than CRH3 (447t) accelerate 0-320km/h in 380 seconds, that's 6 minutes and 20 seconds. So the 9 min
is definitely not full acceleration.
True... but I bet those measurements are on an empty train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I think you are pretty confused with your argument gramercy yourself. The fact that they lowered the top-speed to 330km/h proves NOTHING about what is or is not possible with or without ETCS level 2. The explanation can be VERY simple: it is not energy efficient to reach the top speed of 350km/m when the short length of the track means one can only maintain that speed for one minute. Maybe you can try your argument again when the wuhan-guangzhou line opens later this year, but it simply does not work with such a short line as Beijing-Tianjin.
Completely agree. This is part of the reason that I brought up this subject. Sometimes we're obsessed with top speed here... but when it comes down it, energy efficiency, noise and acceleration are just as important.

in fact, the faster a train runs, the fewer train one can [safely] run on the tracks because of safety margins.

I know that's one reason that the Tokaido line between Tokyo and Osaka can't run much faster. They wouldn't be able to reliably run as many trains on the line as they do now. And if the Japanese can't run more trains on a line, then I don't know who can. Their trains are timed to the second.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 10:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I think you are pretty confused with your argument gramercy yourself. The fact that they lowered the top-speed to 330km/h proves NOTHING about what is or is not possible with or without ETCS level 2. The explanation can be VERY simple: it is not energy efficient to reach the top speed of 350km/m when the short length of the track means one can only maintain that speed for one minute. Maybe you can try your argument again when the wuhan-guangzhou line opens later this year, but it simply does not work with such a short line as Beijing-Tianjin.
really..

so name me ANY train controll system that allowes for 350 kph

and by the way, i know it for a fact that they are using ETCS L1 on the line, so...


and OF COURSE i agree with the efficiency, let me quote myself here
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
And here is why:
- there is NO train controll system currently that can safely operate trains ABOVE 320 kph, ETCS is the only one that even has a hope and it doesnt even work on the "350" Beijing-Tianjin. i have serious doubts that they actually do this and if they do then they do it without a controll system which means less frequency
- 380 kph would require +103 % energy (cost) compared to running at 300 kph, +67 % compared to 320 kph and +31 % (almost a third) compared to running at 350 kph. as a result the ticked would be twice, two thirds or one third more expensive
- not the chinese, nor bombardier have demonstrated their OWN design anywhere near these speeds
- a train running at 380 kph has to be able to operate SAFELY for LONG distances at +10% more speed, so in fact the design speed would be 418 kph!!!
- there is noone else even attempting this because there are more pressing issues for the japanese/europeans, such as: noise emissions, aerodynamics vs cost, train controll systems etc.


to do this sort of a leapfrog within 2-4 years is something I just dont believe possible

the chinese regime has claimed a lot of things and this just smells like one of their exagerrations

still i dont want to belittle their efforts, i mean thousands of kilometres of 320-350 kph is awesome and i'm sure its only a matter of time to go to 380
but its more like a decade imho
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Old October 28th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
really..

so name me ANY train controll system that allowes for 350 kph
TVM430?
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